Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[smithb]

Originally Posted by Vilya

There are more lawyers on this forum than anywhere else, I declare.

I have been using the same brand of disc back-up software since 2013; I just renewed it all to the 2020 versions two months ago. No one has gone after them in the seven years of my using their products.

No, selective enforcement of a law is discriminatory. A law applies to everyone equally or it is an unjust law. Whom the studios might choose to sue in civil court is entirely different than the government fairly and equally enforcing the law.

If I were to steal something worth $20 or worth $1000, I would face arrest and rightly so. The penalties would vary, but I would get arrested in both instances, small theft or larger theft.

And you appear to be one of them, as well.

Practically every day of every week people speed on the highway. If the speed limit is 65 and the average driver is going 70 they are breaking the law. Do the police try and stop and arrest every driver going over 65? No, they focus on those driving at higher, more reckless speeds.

Yes, the law applies to everyone, no it is not always worth going after everyone. We are talking two different things here. The law itself and the enforcement of a law. What would be the cost and value of studios going after individuals on a forum? What would be the ramifications if the government went after the public in that way? It would likely cause more headache then anything else.

I remember when cloning software was sold on the shelf of stores. There was an attempt to remove it then. The problem is that people rarely buy software that way anymore. Software can be purchased and downloaded from servers across the world. Same as illegal copies that were once sold on a street corner. It's not that they aren't trying to go after them, it more about how to stop it when it exists outside the US, and can go down and popup somewhere else the very next day.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by smithb

And you appear to be one of them, as well.

Practically every day of every week people speed on the highway. If the speed limit is 65 and the average driver is going 70 they are breaking the law. Do the police try and stop and arrest every driver going over 65? No, they focus on those driving at higher, more reckless speeds.

Yes, the law applies to everyone, no it is not always worth going after everyone. We are talking two different things here. The law itself and the enforcement of a law. What would be the cost and value of studios going after individuals on a forum? What would be the ramifications if the government went after the public in that way? It would likely cause more headache then anything else.

I remember when cloning software was sold on the shelf of stores. There was an attempt to remove it then. The problem is that people rarely buy software that way anymore. Software can be purchased and downloaded from servers across the world. Same as illegal copies that were once sold on a street corner. It's not that they aren't trying to go after them, it more about how to stop it when it exists outside the US, and can go down and popup somewhere else the very next day.

I was not trying to suggest that my "know-it-all-ness" was any better than anyone's elses; I was just marveling at how many such experts we have here.

The State Police pulled me over for doing 58 mph in a 55 mph zone; I was allowed to go on a verbal warning after a lot of questions. Where was I coming from? Where was I going? Why was I going there? What were the names of the people that I was enroute to see? What was their address? How long was I going to stay? On and on and on went the questions almost none of which had anything to do with my "speeding." My 3 mph infraction seemed to just be a pretense for them to question me; the police can, and they do, use any degree of infraction to stop people when it suits their purpose. Just a fun old memory with my State's finest revived by your analogy.

The police often allow mild speeding to go uncontested because of their limited resources; they instead focus on the more serious offenders, those that pose a higher safety risk to others. Catching the doing 90 mph is more important. Nonetheless, they will arrest you for stealing a candy bar just as readily as they will for anything more valuable.

The software company that I have been using has done nothing to hide or change their URL; my ancient webpage bookmark still leads me right there.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I did not mean the individual but the studio

but out of curiosity I did some checking

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...eading/general

did not read through everything but

so my understanding (in the UK)

1) people are legally allowed to make a backup (red) of the copy they own
2) people can lend the original or the backup if as long as it is private use and temporary
3) you can't make a copy and then give or sell one of them.

You are not copying text, but digital programing. What do you think you are doing when you duplicate a video file these days? It's technically computer code. Its a combination of the movie GUI in JAVA, the video file in a lengthy sequentialy read data file, same with the music. Its a interesting topic as we forget that everything is digital off media these days.

The raw source if no longer copyrighted could be distributed be it video, audio out or both, But not recent DVD, BD, or UHD BD digital content.

[Steedeel]

I don't post much in here for a couple of days and it turns into a bore fest!

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I don't post much in here for a couple of days and it turns into a bore fest!

I knew somehow that it was all your fault.

[JohnAV]

By the way when you are going to college and learning to put foot notes at the bottom of papers you have to include the source of the cited text you copied.

example https://irsc.libguides.com/apa/formatreference

When people rip media do you think they bothered to cite the source, heck no. This is why people on YouTube make absolutely sure they are being responsible unless they want pieces of studio content copied to disappear. We don't even think about the fact that when we post something copied from online source here in the forums not to cite the source of the material in a URL link. Don't want the forum to get in trouble.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

By the way when you are going to college and learning to put foot notes at the bottom of papers you have to include the source of the cited text you copied.

example https://irsc.libguides.com/apa/formatreference

When people rip media do you think they bothered to cite the source, heck no. This is why people on YouTube make absolutely sure they are being responsible. We don't even think about the fact that when we post something copied from online source here in the forums not to cite the source of the material in a URL link. Don't want the forum to get in trouble.

Who you talkin' to, Willis?

When I quote a source I provide a link. Hell, I even italicize any quoted portions to further distinguish my comments from those being quoted.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I knew somehow that it was all your fault.

Just watched The Nightingale which was directed by Jennifer Kent (The Babadook). It’s set in 1825 and is basically a Australian period drama that has a revenge theme running throughout. It’s brutal in places but a very good watch. The Tasmanian backdrops are beautiful on Blu-ray. The aspect ratio is 1.37:1 and it works to really draw you in on the lead actresses plight.

4/5 worth owning.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Who you talkin' to, Willis?

When I quote a source I provide a link. Hell, I even italicize any quoted portions to further distinguish my comments from those being quoted.

Your so distinguished now you got all 11 SW set.

In reality that was a continuation of the response to UK permit to make a backup copy topic.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Your so distinguished now you got all 11 SW set.

That's largely your fault, too, you and your Oppo threads. They led me to buy my 203 and I have to keep it well fed.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Just watched The Nightingale which was directed by Jennifer Kent (The Babadook). It’s set in 1825 and is basically a Australian period drama that has a revenge theme running throughout. It’s brutal in places but a very good watch. The Tasmanian backdrops are beautiful on Blu-ray. The aspect ratio is 1.37:1 and it works to really draw you in on the lead actresses plight.

4/5 worth owning.

I don't own that title, but movies set in British penal colonies always make for a fun movie night. I might acquire it, but I have got 11 Star Wars 4K discs on my mind at the moment.

[smithb]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The police often allow mild speeding to go uncontested because of their limited resources; they instead focus on the more serious offenders, those that pose a higher safety risk to others. Catching the doing 90 mph is more important. Nonetheless, they will arrest you for stealing a candy bar just as readily as they will for anything more valuable.

So why is this any different then the studios? They attempt to go after the one's causing them the most harm.

Originally Posted by Vilya

The software company that I have been using has done nothing to hide or change their URL; my ancient webpage bookmark still leads me right there.

The URL could easily just be redirected. What software do you use? Maybe it just isn't one of the larger. They went after DVDShrink, probably the first of the type. There continues to be litigation against DVDFab.

Whether you do or not, should not should not be a problem at this level. This has never been a morality discussion.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by smithb

What software do you use?

We are not allowed to be THAT specific here.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by smithb

So why is this any different then the studios? They attempt to go after the one's causing them the most harm.

If the studios, or the government, were concerned about people making personal back-ups then they would probably want to make examples out of some of us even though they likely know that going after everyone is impractical. That they haven't even a made a token attempt at enforcement suggests to me that either making personal back-ups is not illegal at all or that neither entity cares. If they don't care, why should I?

[smithb]

Originally Posted by Vilya

If the studios, or the government, were concerned about people making personal back-ups then they would probably want to make examples out of some of us even though they likely know that going after everyone is impractical. That they haven't even a made a token attempt at enforcement suggests to me that either making personal back-ups is not illegal at all or that neither entity cares. If they don't care, why should I?

That makes absolutely no sense. If they didn't care why would they use protection schemes in the first place? Why the message at the beginning of each disk?

In 2014 decryption licensing outfit AACS LA initiated a renewed crackdown on DRM-circumvention software. AACS the decryption licensing outfit founded by Warner Bros, Disney, Microsoft, Intel and others. The company, founded by a group of movie studios and technology partners, sued the makers of popular DVD and Blu-Ray ripping software DVDFab in a New York federal court.

https://torrentfreak.com/dvdfab-has-...s-says-160510/

The fact that it has been a difficult battle does not signify they are doing nothing. It is far from a token attempt. Obviously, it is much better to go after the source then the individuals using the software.

[smithb]

Besides the previously mentioned litigation against DVDFab, a China based company, which has ignored a cease of operations in the U.S. according to AACS, here are a few other more recent articles related to studios trying to stop piracy.

Hollywood tries to cripple several alleged pirate TV services in one lawsuit.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...-lawsuit-says/

Amazon, Netflix, and several major Hollywood studios (including Disney, Fox, Sony, Universal, and Warner Bros.) are suing SET Broadcast over claims that its Set TV streaming service is used for piracy.
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news...cy-042418.html

MPAA Studios Taking on Large-Scale Piracy Ring in New York Court
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/th...k-court-985259

Again, these are not token attempts to stop piracy. As previously stated, they aren't going after the individuals making the illegal copies, but companies making the software that supports making illegal copies, and the illegal streaming of content to consumers.

I'm not saying you should care or anyone making personal backups should be concerned, but DRM-circumvention is illegal, and the best course of action for studios is going after the source, not the general public.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by smithb

That makes absolutely no sense. If they didn't care why would they use protection schemes in the first place? Why the message at the beginning of each disk?

In 2014 decryption licensing outfit AACS LA initiated a renewed crackdown on DRM-circumvention software. AACS the decryption licensing outfit founded by Warner Bros, Disney, Microsoft, Intel and others. The company, founded by a group of movie studios and technology partners, sued the makers of popular DVD and Blu-Ray ripping software DVDFab in a New York federal court.

https://torrentfreak.com/dvdfab-has-...s-says-160510/

The fact that it has been a difficult battle does not signify they are doing nothing. It is far from a token attempt. Obviously, it is much better to go after the source then the individuals using the software.

Your reading something into what I wrote that is simply not there; I am talking about making personal back-ups of products that were legally acquired, NOT piracy with the intent to steal, or to copy and distribute, the copyrighted intellectual properties of others.

No one has been prosecuted, and no one has been sued, for making personal back-ups. If doing so is actually illegal then neither the government nor the studios have cared enough to go after anyone who has done so. This suggests that making personal back-ups is either not illegal or that neither entity is concerned about the making of personal back-ups. Again, if making personal backups is not illegal, then there is no issue and if it is illegal, but no one cares to enforce this law in these instances, then I. do. not. care. I have been making personal back-ups for over 30 years and that is not going to stop unless I am served with a warrant or a summons. Even then, I would have to lose in court before I stopped. Amateur attorneys posting on blu-ray.com have ZERO chance of changing my mind about this.

Suing a specific software company is not the same thing as winning the case, either. Several companies offer this type of software and I have been using such software from the same company located at the same web address for the last seven years; I did not have to search the far corners of the internet to find them and I did not have to delve into the "dark web" to buy this software nor did I have to pay for it with cryptocurrency. The company that I use operates in plain sight and has done so for many years.

Sure, this type of software could be misused and used for theft or for illegal distribution, but that is no reason to eliminate the software. A person can use many products or services in the commission of a crime, but you do not make the product or the service illegal just because someone used it for a bad purpose. If that were the case a whole lot of things would be illegal to own and use. The internet itself facilitates many, many crimes; we better shut the whole thing down now! Might want to ban all manner of weaponry, too; they get used for some shady purposes also.

If the studios do not want their precious DRM circumvented in the process of making personal back-ups, then let them offer warranties for the discs that they sell. Until they protect their products with a real warranty, I will protect my purchases myself.

No one is going to convince me that making personal back-ups is illegal until they show me a case where someone was successfully prosecuted or successfully sued for doing exactly and precisely that. The DMCA has not been tested in court regarding this practice. Your links about efforts to shut down large scale pirating operations have absolutely NOTHING to do with consumers making personal back-ups of their legally acquired content. For the second time I am done with this topic; if others want to discuss it, carry on to your heart's content. Steedeel was right, this topic was boring pages ago.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Your reading something into what I wrote that is simply not there; I am talking about making personal back-ups of products that were legally acquired, NOT piracy with the intent to steal, or to copy and distribute, the copyrighted intellectual properties of others.

No one has been prosecuted, and no one has been sued, for making personal back-ups. If doing so is actually illegal then neither the government nor the studios have cared enough to go after anyone who has done so. This suggests that making personal back-ups is either not illegal or that neither entity is concerned about the making of personal back-ups. Again, if making personal backups is not illegal, then there is no issue and if it is illegal, but no one cares to enforce this law in these instances, then I. do. not. care. I have been making personal back-ups for over 30 years and that is not going to stop unless I am served with a warrant or a summons. Even then, I would have to lose in court before I stopped. Amateur attorneys posting on blu-ray.com have ZERO chance of changing my mind about this.

Suing a specific software company is not the same thing as winning the case, either. Several companies offer this type of software and I have been using such software from the same company located at the same web address for the last seven years; I did not have to search the far corners of the internet to find them and I did not have to delve into the "dark web" to buy this software nor did I have to pay for it with cryptocurrency. The company that I use operates in plain sight and has done so for many years.

Sure, this type of software could be misused and used for theft or for illegal distribution, but that is no reason to eliminate the software. A person can use many products or services in the commission of a crime, but you do not make the product or the service illegal just because someone used it for a bad purpose. If that were the case a whole lot of things would be illegal to own and use. The internet itself facilitates many, many crimes; we better shut the whole thing down now! Might want to ban all manner of weaponry, too; they get used for some shady purposes also.

If the studios do not want their precious DRM circumvented in the process of making personal back-ups, then let them offer warranties for the discs that they sell. Until they protect their products with a real warranty, I will protect my purchases myself.

No one is going to convince me that making personal back-ups is illegal until they show me a case where someone was successfully prosecuted or successfully sued for doing exactly and precisely that. The DMCA has not been tested in court regarding this practice. Your links about efforts to shut down large scale pirating operations has absolutely NOTHING to do with consumers making personal back-ups of their legally acquired content. For the second time I am done with this topic; if others want to discuss it, carry on to your heart's content. Steedeel was right, this topic was boring pages ago.

I would have preferred the Willy Wonka ‘Good day sir’ gif myself.

[stonesfan129]

The law should be changed to allow circumvention of DRM for personal backups. DRM is arguably not even legal since it nullifies the legal concept of fair use. I can see going after people who are putting the stuff up on pirate sites. But copying for personal use should be entirely within the bounds of the law, especially if you paid for what you're copying.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Vilya

There are more lawyers on this forum than anywhere else, I declare.

no just people that know (and took the time) to read.