Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[kevers7290]

^Ok so just to clarify, turn Dolby Vision "off" and "HDR Optimiser "on" for general playback? My display is an LG B8 OLED and a UB820. Can I safely leave the player with these settings or is it something I will need to change constantly depending on the content displayed?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

@Geoff D, why would you downplay Panasonic's HDR Optimizer when professional reviewers and consumers all agree that it preserves the full dynamic range and color volume of HDR graded content? The only other way to see the full dynamic range of HDR content is with a properly set-up Lumagen or Trinnov or other high-end processor.

Rebuilding any HDR content's EOTF PQ that is mastered at 4,000 nits or even worst 10,000 nits to 350 nits for a HDR capable projector is the only BD player that can give you a real HDR cinema presentation. Another great example is for any OLED TV owner who sets the TV type to "OLED" to take advantage of HDR Optimizer to rebuild the EOTF PQ curve to start at 0 luminance to a peak of 1,000 nits, which can then be easily managed on your OLED TV and not clip the peak luminance or blow out the color in high luminance areas of the image.

Now I know that content mastered at 4,000 nits or 10,000 nits does not mean that the content hits the peak luminance, but many scenes are far beyond the ability of an OLED TV or any home theater projector to display or manage without Panasonic's HDR Optimizer.

So it's not about dynamic tone mapping, but rebuilding the EOTF PQ to match the display's contrast ratio range.

I've been downplaying it for ages, for if you have a display that can tone map worth a damn then the Optimiser's usefulness is reduced by orders of magnitude. To that end, that's why the mode is so successful for projektors because they've had such historic issues with tone mapping HDR, lacking any kind of dynamic system a la Dolby and most struggled badly to squeeze thousands of nits into a couple hundred using their stock processing, so while I'm happy for the 350-nit crowd and understand your slavish devotion to it, it means very little to the average consumer. Hell, even the projektor crowd themselves now have their own in-house DTM thanks to JVC and Lumagen as you say.

To just dismiss dynamic tone mapping like this is just astonishing to me. If we actually had dynamic mapping available from the start as an HDR standard then the HDR Optimiser would not exist as there would literally be no need for it. As it is, the Optimiser is essentially a static tone map tailored to the available MaxCLL or Max display mastering level of the content, so while it's more cultured than the tone mapping algorithms inside many a TV and projektor it's still not dynamically adjusting the image so errors can and do occur.

The advantage of a system like Dolby Vision or 10+ or the kind of DTM that Lumagen uses is that it is content derived, it's not just reading a single number off a disc and measuring that number against a preset luminance figure regardless of what the content is actually doing, it's created from reading the physical content, either beforehand in the case of DV or in real time in the case of the Lumagen. And the entire point of DTM is to do exactly what you're saying the Optimiser does, to not clip range and colour that exists behind the capability of the target display. It's quite staggering to me that a professional would suggest otherwise.

[Robert Zohn]

@kevers7290, yes, that's my recommendation. Also be sure in the UB820's user menu, under the HDMI settings sub menu and then go to advanced settings and be sure your TV type is set to "OLED".

I'd also disable the dynamic tone mapping on the B8.

Other users may have different preferences.

[kevers7290]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

@kevers7290, yes, that's my recommendation. Also be sure in the UB820's user menu, under the HDMI settings sub menu and then go to advanced settings and be sure your TV type is set to "OLED".

I'd also disable the dynamic tone mapping on the B8.

Other users may have different preferences.

Thank you, I'll give these settings a try!

[Robert Zohn]

@Geoff D, you keep referring to dynamic tone mapping, but the secret sauce that only the UB420, UB820 and UB9000 has is for users who do not own a very expensive Lumagen or other high-end external video processor and that's Panasonic's exclusive HDR Optimizer, which different than dynamic tone mapping. It's only addressing the very high peak luminance and overall HDR high contrast range that HDR content, which is how HDR is mastered.

Without Panasonic's HDR Optimizer or a Lumagen or other high-end video processor you will not see the full dynamic tonal range or full color volume that is in the HDR content that can't be displayed on a display that just does not have the ability to reach the HDR contrast ratio.

I also love dynamic tone mapping, but this is a different subject than how Panasonic's HDR Optimizer reduces the contrast ratio and color volume to a level that low luminance displays can better handle and display all of the beauty that is mastered in HDR content without clipping or reducing the color volume.

[Robert Zohn]

Geoff D, do you like Panasonic's HDR Optimizer for HDR10 content?

[TravisTylerBlack]

If I'd known about the dim/low latency Dolby Vision issue last year while researching which sub-$1500 Sony LED to pick up, I probably would have held off on the X900F and gone with the X950G, which apparently has multiple DV viewing modes and a slightly higher peak luminance.

As things stand though, outside of the lackluster DV, I'm mostly thrilled with my current display. And now, knowing that the UB820 will leave my mediocre Samsung disc spinner in the dust, I'm almost giddy in anticipation! The optimiser seems like a promising feature for those of us with displays hovering around 1000 nits or less.

Also interested fire up the BenQHT2550 and see if its HDR performance is much improved with it connected to the 820 as well. Have not screened a 4K disc on it in since Wizard of Oz.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

@Geoff D, you keep referring to dynamic tone mapping, but the secret sauce that only the UB420, UB820 and UB9000 has is for users who do not own a very expensive Lumagen or other high-end external video processor and that's Panasonic's exclusive HDR Optimizer, which different than dynamic tone mapping. It's only addressing the very high peak luminance and overall HDR high contrast range that HDR content, which is how HDR is mastered.

Without Panasonic's HDR Optimizer or a Lumagen or other high-end video processor you will not see the full dynamic tonal range or full color volume that is in the HDR content that can't be displayed on a display that just does not have the ability to reach the HDR contrast ratio.

I also love dynamic tone mapping, but this is a different subject than how Panasonic's HDR Optimizer reduces the contrast ratio and color volume to a level that low luminance displays can better handle and display all of the beauty that is mastered in HDR content without clipping or reducing the color volume.

The entire point of tone mapping, dynamic or otherwise, is to tailor the absolute levels of the HDR PQ content to best fit the target display inclusive of luminance, range, colour volume etc. In other words, its ultimate aim is achieve what the Optimiser sets out to do, only on a more flexible content-derived basis in the case of DTM. Hence the comparison.

You keep saying why I keep mentioning tone mapping but that stems from your original comment of turning off Dolby Vision to gain access to the Optimiser, my perspective is thus: if you've got Dolby Vision you do not NEED the Optimiser because the DV should be doing everything the Optimiser is doing, and doing it with more intelligence owing to the content-derived metadata. It's also rebuilding the genuine 12-bit source if using the FEL delivery system on disc.

Alas, the problem is getting a DV implementation that isn't fcuked in the first place! But I've got mine in a very good place on the ZD9 and I'd never dream of using the Optimiser in its place if DV is available. As it's not always available then I do use the Optimiser for certain Sony HDR10 titles to tame their astonishingly aggressive HDR grading, but as most HDR10 content is still on or around 1000 nits then my TV can display it as is, in "1:1" quality as said by Kris Deering, so the Optimiser is literally useless in those cases. It's been the cherry on top for my HDR viewing experience rather than the amazing panacea others may perceive it to be, and as displays improve over time - or rather their internal processing of static HDR material - then the Optimiser will find less and less favour.

[Robert Zohn]

Thanks for explaining. We mostly agree, but with, and as you also said Dolby Vision being *^^#!@ I recommend using the SMPTE base layer HDR10 with the HDR Optimizer when connected to an LG OLED TV.

I also agree that in theory, leaving the dynamic tone mapping on for the TV is the best practice, but in my testing with LG OLED TVs the HDR tone mapping performance is best with the TV's tone mapping disabled. This is true only on LG OLED TVs.

In your application you have the mighty Sony Z9D so what's good for you is not true with an LG OLED TV and that's the member who I was responding. Also, hope you agree that the HDR Optimizer value is in packaging HDR in a container size that low luminance displays can more easily manage is its key value. That's what we were going after when the HDR Optimizer was conceived and designed.

[Geoff D]

Yeah we're good, no worries. Just coming at the same problem from different angles.

[gnicks]

I have to say, having used an LG B7 for a few years now, I have never noticed raised blacks on Dolby Vision content, or it messing up the image in any way. I certainly use DV for any title that supports it, due to the benefits Geoff stated above.

I am, however, interested in hearing more opinions on the HDR Optimizer vs. the TV's on-board dynamic tone mapping. Is it generally recommended to disable DTM on the TV and only use the HDR Optimizer on the Panny? I have heard some recommend using both, and others say to just use the HDR Optimizer.

[Geoff D]

Personally speaking, I wouldn't apply DTM on top of an already Optimised image.

[EddieLarkin]

I have also never experienced a single noticeable problem with DV on an LG OLED. If such problems ever did exist I believe they were fixed in firmware upgrades long ago.

What does sometimes give me pause when using DV via the 820 though, is the apparent clipping that has been identified. I've heard conflicting information about this problem, that it may only occur with low latency DV, or that it occurs only at high nit levels (but what level?).

Has anything been clarified on this issue? It would be great to know on which titles it would benefit not using DV and to instead use the Optimiser. Right now I too always use DV if it is available due to the benefits Geoff mentions.

[Fred Bang]

Hello

I’m about to receive that player to match it with my Sony x950g tv. Which optimizer settings should I use for that tv?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

I have also never experienced a single noticeable problem with DV on an LG OLED. If such problems ever did exist I believe they were fixed in firmware upgrades long ago.

What does sometimes give me pause when using DV via the 820 though, is the apparent clipping that has been identified. I've heard conflicting information about this problem, that it may only occur with low latency DV, or that it occurs only at high nit levels (but what level?).

Has anything been clarified on this issue? It would be great to know on which titles it would benefit not using DV and to instead use the Optimiser. Right now I too always use DV if it is available due to the benefits Geoff mentions.

I believe I'm one of the first to have actually mentioned this DV clipping and subsequent investigation by folks like Vincent Teoh would appear to bear this out. He likes to use a certain moment from Fast and Furious 8 to demonstrate how it clips out the sun in the sky, but the odd thing is that on my system (820 into a Soy ZD9) there's no clipping at all in DV in that same scene, it's identical between HDR10 and DV. But there are some titles which still clip extreme (like 4000+ nits) highlights, the Montage on Spears & Munsil UHD is just a mess on the 820.

[pbz06]

I still keep going back and forth, but lately I've noticed in some movies that using HDR Optimizer (disable DV) has produced better image for me. The DV in "It" and "It: Ch. 2" produced some scenes with raised black and blotchiness (and lit up the grey bars), while with DV Off it was inky black and perfection. While trying to troubleshoot my issues with Spectre, I noticed it also improved that.

I've been watching a lot of DV content lately and when I see an issue, I go back and disable DV and check again, and in most cases that issue didn't exist. Of course, that's a dumb non-scientific aproach since I haven't been checking for issues with HDR10/OptimiserOn nor really writing anything down...for example, DV with Terminator Dark Fate was much better than with it disabled (which seemed to trip out the HDMI and give a washed out image).

This is with Sony A9G (non-defeatable DTM) and low latency approach, and I have the Optimzer set to OLED of course.

My instinct prefers to use DV for the same "benefits" that Geoff explained, so I'm stuck! I feel like DV off and Optimizer on (for >1,000 nit content) gives me the most consistent image so far.

[tama]

Tested Sony's Black Hawk Down yesterday. I did notice an improvement over past viewings.

Curious to see is titles mastered in the 1000 nits show improvement as well.

But in the meantime I think Mad Max Fury Road will be up next for reviewing.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by pbz06

I still keep going back and forth, but lately I've noticed in some movies that using HDR Optimizer (disable DV) has produced better image for me. The DV in "It" and "It: Ch. 2" produced some scenes with raised black and blotchiness (and lit up the grey bars), while with DV Off it was inky black and perfection. While trying to troubleshoot my issues with Spectre, I noticed it also improved that.

I've been watching a lot of DV content lately and when I see an issue, I go back and disable DV and check again, and in most cases that issue didn't exist. Of course, that's a dumb non-scientific aproach since I haven't been checking for issues with HDR10/OptimiserOn nor really writing anything down...for example, DV with Terminator Dark Fate was much better than with it disabled (which seemed to trip out the HDMI and give a washed out image).

This is with Sony A9G (non-defeatable DTM) and low latency approach, and I have the Optimzer set to OLED of course.

My instinct prefers to use DV for the same "benefits" that Geoff explained, so I'm stuck! I feel like DV off and Optimizer on (for >1,000 nit content) gives me the most consistent image so far.

Sounds like Dolby Greyblack™. Speaking solely for the Zd9, lowering the black level by a single click from 50 to 49 fixes this issue entirely. But as I understand it the DV is still far too dim on Sony OLEDs so I can see why other approaches would be preferable, e.g. Vincent Teoh recommended leaving DV off and just using the DTM on a recent Sony OLED review. To that end, have you done a lot of comparisons with the Sony DTM and the Optimiser on/off? Would love to know how the two stack up.

But you mention consistency and I'm not sure that that's the thing to be aiming for though, as not every movie will look the same, nor are they supposed to.

[riptor3076]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

@kevers7290, yes, that's my recommendation. Also be sure in the UB820's user menu, under the HDMI settings sub menu and then go to advanced settings and be sure your TV type is set to "OLED".

I'd also disable the dynamic tone mapping on the B8.

Other users may have different preferences.

Robert,

I have both a B6 and C9 OLED. Would you recommend the same on both? DV off, 820 HDR optimizer on set to OLED and dynamic tone mapping off on both tvs? In the menu is it called dynamic tone mapping on both the B6 and C9 or something else? I just don't want to change the wrong settings and make things worse.

Thanks!

[Geoff D]

I'm not Robert but the B6 doesn't have any official DTM and its onboard HDR10 processing is looking increasingly creaky. The Optimiser may well come in very handy for that set, but on the C9 I'd start with the onboard DTM only and see what you think from there.