The Criterion Collection

[BenOswald]

Originally Posted by sonicyogurt

Zero, give or take. Why do you believe otherwise?

If 4khd upgrades are 3x more expensive than blu upgrades, it's 2x blus for 1x 4k.

I would rather see both The Hit & The Furies on blu, than Barry Lyndon in 4k.

[sonicyogurt]

Originally Posted by BenOswald

If 4khd upgrades are 3x more expensive than blu upgrades, it's 2x blus for 1x 4k.

That's not how it works.

The idea, really, is that for Ultra HD Blu-ray, Criterion would either be leveraging the masters they're supplied by licensors or that they're creating already. Criterion is already scanning and restoring films in 4K. And, on a smaller scale, they're already doing HDR grades. The additional lift comes on getting this on disc and all that entails. It'd be a "do we release this film on Ultra HD Blu-ray too?" situation more than anything else.

Ultra HD Blu-ray is more expensive to author and replicate, sure, but that additional cost would be built into the sticker price. There's no reason why that would affect which titles Criterion would choose to bring to Blu-ray.

Originally Posted by BenOswald

I would rather see both The Hit & The Furies on blu, than Barry Lyndon in 4k.

Why not both?

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by FragnitoM

I listened this podcast. He said they already are and have doing the more lengthy 4K scans for years to future proof it but are then releasing it on a physical format that can’t utilize it—so this is not an issue. They’re already doing all the work and then not letting us see it

Yes, but as they pointed out, it’s as much for archival purposes as anything else. It’s good for future-proofing and their overall mission, but it still doesn’t justify creating an entirely new eproduct line with high costs and high risks. How are you gonna get B&N - assuming they ever really fully reopen - happy about creating shelf space for ANOTHER redundant format? Who wants to stock three physical formats of every title? Or produce them?

Let’s put it another way: UHD has been out for 4 years and there are barely 500 discs available. Major manufacturers have stopped making UHD players. UHD disc adoption is maybe 15 percent of the BD market. What is the economic proposition for UHD for a boutique label? How many people are gonna buy a 4k edition of the Robert Drew set?

[sonicyogurt]

Originally Posted by DimitriL

Who wants to stock three physical formats of every title?

Why do you think that every Criterion release would have to come out on Ultra HD Blu-ray? Literally no studio or label anywhere the world over is doing that. It'd be a small percentage of their overall output, just as it is for the other boutiques that've issued their first Ultra HD titles over the past year or so.

I agree that there are many challenges and obstacles to overcome, but if smaller labels with fewer resources have figured it out, I don't doubt that Criterion can as well.

[jw007]

Originally Posted by Gerby

My 1st projector was an Epson LCD & i had no end of issues with dust getting inside the machine & settling on the LCD panels as they don't have a sealed light path. Results in big ugly dust blobs showing up on the projected image. Wish i could afford a JVC DLA but i love my Sony SXRD that i have now.

Dang, do you remember what the model of the Epson projector you had? I'd imagine they might have improved their machines so that doesn't happen anymore. I'm not too worried about that as I'd cover the projector in a dust cover when not in use. I take it you have this Sony projector? https://www.sony.com/electronics/projector/vpl-hw45es

[Shanghai Express]

Upgrades from DVD (or VHS) to Blu-ray are simply worth more than upgrades from Blu-ray to UHD. The Little 4Ksters are living in a bubble, bemoaning Criterion’s hesitation to commit to what is essentially a novelty, one that already hit its peak years ago and has been on a steady decline ever since. The only titles that make sense on 4K disc are 1) studio catalog tentpoles 2) recent blockbusters 3) deep-niche genre titles like those vintage independent horror and sci-fi flicks that only ever get purchased by die-hard forum-lurking fans anyway. For everything else in between, physical UHD releases are not feasible and are frankly unnecessary. We need more titles in HD before UHD anyway. The Little 4Ksters are getting ahead of themselves and everyone else.

[BamaDullard]

Those damned Little 4Ksters.

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by sonicyogurt

Why do you think that every Criterion release would have to come out on Ultra HD Blu-ray? Literally no studio or label anywhere the world over is doing that. It'd be a small percentage of their overall output, just as it is for the other boutiques that've issued their first Ultra HD titles over the past year or so.

I agree that there are many challenges and obstacles to overcome, but if smaller labels with fewer resources have figured it out, I don't doubt that Criterion can as well.

Yes, but also, but few other studios or label put out both a DVD and BD edition, either. That's what Criterion does. They don't do selective releases.

And let's not forget the MSRP of UHD discs from major labels is averaging around $35-40. With economies of scale, discs from major labels tend to be priced significantly cheaper than a Criterion release. What do you think a smaller label like Criterion will have to charge? People have been *****ing on this thread about the $40 MSRP of BDs. (Example: the STANDARD no-frills edition of the upcoming Flash Gordon 4K is $50.)

[jw007]

If you think the "Little 4Ksters" are a force to be reckoned with, wait until you see the "Tiny 8Ksters"!

[LordSummerIsle]

Originally Posted by DimitriL

Yes, but also, but few other studios or label put out both a DVD and BD edition, either. That's what Criterion does. They don't do selective releases.

And let's not forget the MSRP of UHD discs from major labels is averaging around $35-40. With economies of scale, discs from major labels tend to be priced significantly cheaper than a Criterion release. What do you think a smaller label like Criterion will have to charge? People have been *****ing on this thread about the $40 MSRP of BDs. (Example: the STANDARD no-frills edition of the upcoming Flash Gordon 4K is $50.)

That's the Amazon pre-order price. I ordered the limited 4K set for $34.99

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by LordSummerIsle

That's the Amazon pre-order price. I ordered the limited 4K set for $34.99

That’s great, but that’s not the point. I’m bringing up the list price to show that everyone is charging more for UHD bc there are higher costs combined with lower sales potential, and more so for boutique labels. And again, what’s the economic rationale? Unless we’re going back to 1988 and are prepared to balance lower volume for a high-end niche format by jacking up the price to nosebleed levels that only the hardest-core collectors can afford. What’s the equivalent of $125 in 2020 dollars?

[Reddington]

Originally Posted by yarulbcool

Yea, just like some blus are only marginal upgrades from DVD. Done right, that’s not the case. It’s not really a valid reason for why criterion hasn’t made the jump.

And unlikely to be swayed by the superior format argument? The only justification of their existence has to do with bonus features (which other distributors have done at this point) and the quality of the transfers (which other distributors are starting to get the upper hand on). Of course it has to make economic sense. No one is implying they should go in the negative for it. But surely a 4k release would be profitable at this point for a few releases here and there.

So far, most of the "valid" reasons proffered for Criterion to release UHD titles boil down to "because we want them to." And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

As I posted a few pages back, the sale of UHD players in the US peaked in 2017, and were down year-on-year for '18 and '19. Also, I understand that no manufacturer has introduced new player models for 2020. This info is surely not lost on Criterion as it reviews and refines its business model.

UHD may be "profitable" for a big studios releasing their biggest catalog hits and recent blockbusters, but what titles should Criterion release to satisfy the UHD crowd? With BD, they have one uniform HD format that can be utilized for all new releases (barring any Eclipse sets). And don't forget, they allegedly still sell more titles annually on DVD than BD.

Also, just so you know, I have nothing against UHD and do buy some titles - mostly where I don't have the BD (like The Big Lebowski), or a firm favourite (like Jaws). I just don't agree that Criterion is somehow letting cinephiles/collectors down by not embracing the format.

[Shanghai Express]

Originally Posted by Reddington

I just don't agree that Criterion is somehow letting cinephiles/collectors down by not embracing the format.

This. Put into words perfectly.

[LordSummerIsle]

Criterion's mission statement: "Since 1984, the Criterion Collection has been dedicated to publishing important classic and contemporary films from around the world in editions that offer the highest technical quality and award-winning, original supplements. No matter the medium—from laserdisc to DVD and Blu-ray to streaming—Criterion has maintained its pioneering commitment to presenting each film as its maker would want it seen, in state-of-the-art restorations with special features designed to encourage repeated watching and deepen the viewer’s appreciation of the art of film."

[regeyer]

Originally Posted by LordSummerIsle

Criterion's mission statement: "Since 1984, the Criterion Collection has been dedicated to publishing important classic and contemporary films from around the world in editions that offer the highest technical quality and award-winning, original supplements. No matter the medium—from laserdisc to DVD and Blu-ray to streaming—Criterion has maintained its pioneering commitment to presenting each film as its maker would want it seen, in state-of-the-art restorations with special features designed to encourage repeated watching and deepen the viewer’s appreciation of the art of film."

Yet Criterion skipped over HD DVD completely and was late joining the Blu-Ray bandwagon.

[DaBargainHunta]

Originally Posted by regeyer

Yet Criterion skipped over HD DVD completely and was late joining the Blu-Ray bandwagon.

People seem to forget this part.

Criterion will eventually release 4Ks IMO, but it might not happen for a couple more years. This is completely expected and in line with their business practices for anyone who has been paying attention.

[BenOswald]

Originally Posted by LordSummerIsle

in editions that offer the highest technical quality a

Great, new business plan then:

Jettison 97.5% of their releases and do only photochemical 65mm prints of 4x titles per year, screened publically in 5 venues, one on each continent. They can consult with Kodak and develop a new print stock. Strike 6x answer prints to a board panel of 12 experts for review. They can mine new sand and develop a line of projection glass that exceeds current quality. Hopefully this will please the masses. brb, going to start an online petition.

[MifuneFan]

I wouldn't say they were late to the Blu-ray bandwagon at all. Studios were still divided between the formats, so it didn't make a lot of sense for Criterion to choose BD, when it's possible (though maybe not likely) that HD-DVD could come out on top. HD-DVD had Paramount, Warner, and Universal in their corner. Blu-ray had Sony, Disney, and Fox. What was Criterion to do? It wasn't until January 2008 that Warner announced plans to drop support for HD-DVD, marking the beginning of the end for that format, and the war. Criterion announced their first lineup of Blu-ray titles in May 2008.

[Shanghai Express]

DVD was the future of laserdisc. Blu-ray was the future of DVD. 4K UHD is not the future of Blu-ray.

DVD was your first wife. She was good at first but you fell out of love with her when she got old and let herself go. Divorced! Blu-ray was your second wife. She was amazing, all you could ask for, you were ready to retire and grow old with her because there really was nothing wrong with the woman. But then she died. And now in your despondency you delude yourself into thinking that the nubile 4K UHD prostitute you use once in a while is your future. Wife #3. You silly old man. She's all bells and whistles, she can't compare to what you and Miss Blu-ray had together all those years, the relationship won't last, she's a diversion, she's expensive to keep, she doesn't even really have time for you because time is running out for her as well, and if you keep it up you'll probably die of a heart attack at her house. How embarrassing.

[JasonMichael]

Originally Posted by DaBargainHunta

People seem to forget this part.

Criterion will eventually release 4Ks IMO, but it might not happen for a couple more years. This is completely expected and in line with their business practices for anyone who has been paying attention.

I think that in a couple more years there will be virtually nobody releasing 4K. The format is already dying. It never got the market penetration that DVD or Blu-ray did, and sales are already on the downslide. I think Criterion is just waiting for the market for it to dwindle to nothing, and avoid having their more rabid fans complaining about dual packs or whatever other decision they make that rubs people the wrong way.