Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Look at that by impedance, and number of channels. Sometimes to a different THD spec also, or to a fixed frequency like 1 Khz. Its actually false advertising by Sounds United.

I don’t know if it is necessarily false advertising, but more like a lack of a unified truth in labeling. I remember seeing all kinds of crazy looking plastic shelf “systems” with flashing lights claiming a bazillion watts, then you go to a different room with a high end integrated amp saying that is was 80 watts per channel. The integrated amp had way more usable power, but it was how everything was measured. No laws being broken either way, just maybe some deception.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by gotmule

I don’t know if it is necessarily false advertising, but more like a lack of a unified truth in labeling. I remember seeing all kinds of crazy looking plastic shelf “systems” with flashing lights claiming a bazillion watts, then you go to a different room with a high end integrated amp saying that is was 80 watts per channel. The integrated amp had way more usable power, but it was how everything was measured. No laws being broken either way, just maybe some deception.

It may not be false advertising as it is likely true under the right conditions, but it is definitely a deliberate attempt to mislead.

Compare the statements:

"11.2 channel AV Receiver with 205W per channel – Enough power to fill big rooms with renowned Marantz sound."

https://www.us.marantz.com/en-US/sho...ivers/sr8012_m

"Delivers a masterful 140W per channel (8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, THD: 0.05%, 2 ch. driven) so you experience your entertainment in remarkable detail."

https://www.us.marantz.com/en-US/sho...ceivers/sr8015

The first statement omits all references to impedance, frequency range, THD, and the precise number of channels driven.

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by Vilya

It may not be false advertising as it is likely true under the right conditions, but it is definitely a deliberate attempt to mislead.

Compare the statements:

"11.2 channel AV Receiver with 205W per channel – Enough power to fill big rooms with renowned Marantz sound."

https://www.us.marantz.com/en-US/sho...ivers/sr8012_m

"Delivers a masterful 140W per channel (8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, THD: 0.05%, 2 ch. driven) so you experience your entertainment in remarkable detail."

https://www.us.marantz.com/en-US/sho...ceivers/sr8015

The first statement omits all references to impedance, frequency range, THD, and the precise number of channels driven.

100% agree that is misleading as hell.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

All of the review sites that I just scanned thru state that the power output for the SR 8012 is 140 watts per channel into 8 ohms.

One thing to note about most receiver power ratings, what is the power output with all channels driven simultaneously. I doubt many will state that power rating.

While 170 watts seems to be a lot more than 115 watts it is just 1.7 dB. For power needed one needs to know the efficiency of their loudspeakers. For a typical speaker that has a sensitivity rating of 87 SPL at 1 watt the power required vs SPL is listed below:

Power SPL
1_____87
2_____90
4_____93
8_____96
16____99
32____102
64____105
128___108
256___111
512___114
1024__117

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Vilya

It may not be false advertising as it is likely true under the right conditions, but it is definitely a deliberate attempt to mislead.

"11.2 channel AV Receiver with 205W per channel – Enough power to fill big rooms with renowned Marantz sound."

This only presents what each amp is capable of as a spec. Its one channel driven into 8 ohm @ 1 kHz 1% THD. The same done to .07% THD drops to 170W, and of course they have it spec'ed as 2 channels into 8 ohm, as 140 W 20 Hz to 20 kHz .05% THD. Yes as gotmule said misleading for consumers.

Most AVR's cannot come at all close to rated power output for all channels simultaneous driven.

Look at a Denon x8500H that big 13.2 AVR. The power supply is woefully inadequate to drive them all to 150 watts sustained. In less channel designs Pioneer with its class D was the only AVR capable of getting close to that.

Here is a part of a 8500H review from audio.com.pl/testy, a Polish site that gets into lab testing AVR's.

Denon used (in the case of A / V devices) to define the output power quite unusual, the basic value for each of the terminals is 210 W with a slightly unusual load - 6 Ω. Going deeper into the specifications, I found information about the power at 8 Ω - 150 W with two channels driven simultaneously. In our laboratory, the AVC-X8500H obtained 200 W and 2 x 171 W (into 8 Ω) in one channel; with five channels (driven simultaneously) we have a great 5 x 136 W, and with nine - 9 x 77 W.

Touching on Wendell's example, speakers come with various efficiencies. Just buying a speaker rated at 8 ohm or 6 ohm doesn't mean it impedance is that, its a approximation to the impedance variation using its multiple speakers and crossover. Some speakers that are 8 ohm are considerable lower, higher too over their frequency range. If you are one that wants maximum SPL you need to be concerned about your chosen speakers not over taxing your power amp section.

But Wendell's point about the difference in loudness (SPL) comparing minor differences in AVR's rated power is a good reminder.

For a fussy audiophile there are specs that are equally as important against AVR's such as THD, Noise, internal interference, amp design capable of working easily with low impedance loads. But that is going too far in this topic.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

This only presents what each amp is capable of as a spec. Its one channel driven into 8 ohm @ 1 kHz 1% THD. The same done to .07% THD drops to 170W, and of course they have it spec'ed as 2 channels into 8 ohm, as 140 W 20 Hz to 20 kHz .05% THD. Yes as gotmule said misleading for consumers.

Most AVR's cannot come at all close to rated power output for all channels simultaneous driven.

Look at a Denon x8500H that big 13.2 AVR. The power supply is woefully inadequate to drive them all to 150 watts sustained. In less channel designs Pioneer with its class D was the only AVR capable of getting close to that.

Here is a part of a 8500H review from audio.com.pl/testy, a Polish site that gets into lab testing AVR's.


Touching on Wendell's example, speakers come with various efficiencies. Just buying a speaker rated at 8 ohm or 6 ohm doesn't mean it impedance is that, its a approximation to the impedance variation using its multiple speakers and crossover. Some speakers that are 8 ohm are considerable lower, higher too over their frequency range. If you are one that wants maximum SPL you need to be concerned about your chosen speakers not over taxing your power amp section.

But Wendell's point about the difference in loudness (SPL) comparing minor differences in AVR's rated power is a good reminder.

For a fussy audiophile there are specs that are equally as important against AVR's such as THD, Noise, internal interference, amp design capable of working easily with low impedance loads. But that is going too far in this topic.

It seems that the power ratings as stated by the AVR manufacturers are nigh unto worthless as they "cook the books" to make their models look better than they actually are.

I guess a pre-amp and a power amp for each channel is a better way to really know what you are getting as the AVR makers won't disclose the power ratings for when all channels are driven. Are the stats for multi-channel power amps any better in stating their real power output with all channels driven or do you need to have separate amps for each channel to know what you are actually getting? Of course, going this route would explode my budget and take me a lot more time to accomplish. Oh well, I have plenty of time to ponder it all.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Vilya

It seems that the power ratings as stated by the AVR manufacturers are nigh unto worthless as they "cook the books" to make their models look better than they actually are.

I guess a pre-amp and a power amp for each channel is a better way to really know what you are getting as the AVR makers won't disclose the power ratings for when all channels are driven. Are the stats for multi-channel power amps any better in stating their real power output with all channels driven or do you need to have separate amps for each channel to know what you are actually getting? Of course, going this route would explode my budget and take me a lot more time to accomplish. Oh well, I have plenty of time to ponder it all.

As long as you have a AVR that is fairly close to its rated power it should do fairly well with driving 5 channels same time. Surrounds usually are not highly active, it would be your front speakers L+C+R that are most active. Watts into speakers is not equal. Look at the size of the woofer, versus mid range, versus tweeter. The energy to power each is reflective of the size of the speaker elements that it has to move. Lower frequencies consume the most from a amp. If you use a powered subwoofer you are getting rid of where most of your AVRs power would go to the VLF range to drive speakers.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

As long as you have a AVR that is fairly close to its rated power it should do fairly well with driving 5 channels same time. Surrounds usually are not highly active, it would be your front speakers L+C+R that are most active. Watts into speakers is not equal. Look at the size of the woofer, versus mid range, versus tweeter. The energy to power each is reflective of the size of the speaker elements that it has to move. Lower frequencies consume the most from a amp. If you use a powered subwoofer you are getting rid of where most of your AVRs power would go to the VLF range to drive speakers.

I don't own a sub woofer; maybe I should. I have no idea who makes a good one or what I should budget for one; always more stuff to research. The audio side of things sure is a rabbit hole seemingly without any end.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I don't own a sub woofer; maybe I should. I have no idea who makes a good one or what I should budget for one; always more stuff to research. The audio side of things sure is a rabbit hole seemingly without any end.

Yes its a very deep rabbit hole.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Are the stats for multi-channel power amps any better in stating their real power output with all channels driven or do you need to have separate amps for each channel to know what you are actually getting?

Some do, an example is the Outlaw Audio Model 7000x 7-Channel Amplifier (here).

Did you ever check your SPL with actual movie content? If you do not listen at reference levels then most quality AVR's should suffice like the Marantz you are interested in. For us, Dolby reference of 85 dB SPL is too loud for many movies. But for some I do like to crank it, same for some concert content.

Bass content, as JohnAV pointed out that is where a good portion of your power goes when using full range speakers. If you use good powered sub(s), set your LCR speakers to small and crossover in the 80 to 100 Hz range that would reduce the demand from the AVR quite a bit.

[cheez avenger]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I don't own a sub woofer; maybe I should. I have no idea who makes a good one or what I should budget for one; always more stuff to research. The audio side of things sure is a rabbit hole seemingly without any end.

I have an older legacy sub, but will eventually get 2 of these just because price is right:



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...KIKX0DER&psc=1

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by cheez avenger

I have an older legacy sub, but will eventually get 2 of these just because price is right:



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...KIKX0DER&psc=1

Thanks for the recommendation.

I have been relying upon my floor standing speakers for bass reproduction all of these years. I will have to explore the sub woofer option in much greater detail.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Some do, an example is the Outlaw Audio Model 7000x 7-Channel Amplifier (here).

Did you ever check your SPL with actual movie content? If you do not listen at reference levels then most quality AVR's should suffice like the Marantz you are interested in. For us, Dolby reference of 85 dB SPL is too loud for many movies. But for some I do like to crank it, same for some concert content.

Bass content, as JohnAV pointed out that is where a good portion of your power goes when using full range speakers. If you use good powered sub(s), set your LCR speakers to small and crossover in the 80 to 100 Hz range that would reduce the demand from the AVR quite a bit.

I do not have an SPL meter.

I agree that a quality AVR will please me greatly and especially if I pair it with a "to be determined" subwoofer.

Thanks for the link, too.

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I don't own a sub woofer; maybe I should. I have no idea who makes a good one or what I should budget for one; always more stuff to research. The audio side of things sure is a rabbit hole seemingly without any end.

Yeah, but it is really fun down in this rabbit hole. There are a lot of options for subs out there currently, with a few internet companies putting out solid offerings. You unfortunately have to rely upon not being able to listen to them and count on taking advantage of their return period if you are not pleased. It is better to hear something in your room anyway compared to a showroom as a sub interacts with the room. There are a bunch of national brands who make respectable subs also, where you would be able to audition them with a bit of a drive for you.

I would be happy to help navigate those waters when the time comes as I did research on or listened to a fair amount of brands out there over the past 7 months. I promise to be gentle on your wallet.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I do not have an SPL meter.

You really need one for level matching of all loudspeakers. AVR’s may do a fairly good job of automated speaker setup but you need to be able to verify. A cheap SPL meter like this one should work for this purpose, I would not use it to check response or absolute level. Another quickie, several Android SPL Meter apps.

I agree that a quality AVR will please me greatly and especially if I pair it with a "to be determined" subwoofer.

If you want to start out with a budget subwoofer(s) Parts Express would be a good place to start (here) or MonoPrice (here). These subs will not go as low or have the output as premium subs but they are a fraction of the price.

Upstairs I have very modest setup with a Yamaha AVR, 2 Dayton Audio B652-AIR and 1 Dayton Audio SUB-1000 that is used for background music. If you play a piece of pop music and turn it up your eyes will not believe your ears.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by gotmule

Yeah, but it is really fun down in this rabbit hole. There are a lot of options for subs out there currently, with a few internet companies putting out solid offerings. You unfortunately have to rely upon not being able to listen to them and count on taking advantage of their return period if you are not pleased. It is better to hear something in your room anyway compared to a showroom as a sub interacts with the room. There are a bunch of national brands who make respectable subs also, where you would be able to audition them with a bit of a drive for you.

I would be happy to help navigate those waters when the time comes as I did research on or listened to a fair amount of brands out there over the past 7 months. I promise to be gentle on your wallet.

Thank you for the offer to help. When it comes time to buy, a trip to St. Louis may be necessary as it is the nearest major city to me. There are no stores with decent audio offerings within 60 miles of me and if I am going to go that far I may as well make the 100 mile trip to St. Louis. I really prefer to see and hear audio equipment before deciding whether or not to buy it.

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

You really need one for level matching of all loudspeakers. AVR’s may do a fairly good job of automated speaker setup but you need to be able to verify. A cheap SPL meter like this one should work for this purpose, I would not use it to check response or absolute level. Another quickie, several Android SPL Meter apps.

If you want to start out with a budget subwoofer(s) Parts Express would be a good place to start (here) or MonoPrice (here). These subs will not go as low or have the output as premium subs but they are a fraction of the price.

Upstairs I have very modest setup with a Yamaha AVR, 2 Dayton Audio B652-AIR and 1 Dayton Audio SUB-1000 that is used for background music. If you play a piece of pop music and turn it up your eyes will not believe your ears.

The SPL meter that you linked to costs no more than a blu-ray. I had no idea that they were so affordable.

I appreciate all of the recommendations pertaining to my AVR and now my subwoofer quest. I am budgeting $2500 -$3000 for an AVR and up to $1500 for a subwoofer. I hope that is enough to get a nice one. Still, getting the new AVR is the first order of business. Being on a fixed income, it will take me some time to save up my pennies and the holidays are coming up, too.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

A cheap SPL meter like this one should work for this purpose, I would not use it to check response or absolute level.

Originally Posted by Vilya

The SPL meter that you linked to costs no more than a blu-ray. I had no idea that they were so affordable.

Vilya and other readers. DO NOT BUY the SPL meter I referenced above. It is only type A weighting. You need a meter with Type A & C weighting, one example here. Type A, C & Z weighting meters will cost a lot of money.

[bhampton]

It’s definitely a rabbit hole, maybe THE rabbit hole.

I hosted a movie and my friend thought things didn’t sound right (how rude but..) and I start investigating and discovered actually Audssey can make some major mistakes. It set my overhead speakers to half the volume of the rest. No wonder I tended not to notice them.

I was thrilled when AVRs started coming with microphones for setup. But they can get all of it wrong.

A tape measure and SPL meter and a little time and I have it much better.

All my speakers are 20 years old, recently several of them had the foam surrounds fail. Thankfully they are popular enough that kits were available and it’s not a difficult repair.

I use an ancient SPL meter from Radio Shack

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by bhampton

I use an ancient SPL meter from Radio Shack

Have one of those as well. It is perfectly fine for comparing sound levels between loudspeakers using band limited pink noise. It is not suitable for checking frequency response. I use a Galaxy CM-140 Sound Level Meter (here) and a MiniDSP UMIK-1 microphone (here) for speaker testing and level settings.

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by bhampton

It’s definitely a rabbit hole, maybe THE rabbit hole.

I hosted a movie and my friend thought things didn’t sound right (how rude but..) and I start investigating and discovered actually Audssey can make some major mistakes. It set my overhead speakers to half the volume of the rest. No wonder I tended not to notice them.

I was thrilled when AVRs started coming with microphones for setup. But they can get all of it wrong.

A tape measure and SPL meter and a little time and I have it much better.

All my speakers are 20 years old, recently several of them had the foam surrounds fail. Thankfully they are popular enough that kits were available and it’s not a difficult repair.

I use an ancient SPL meter from Radio Shack

I can’t even remember the last time I used results from an auto calibration feature of a receiver/processor. I think it was the YPAO process from a Yamaha RXZ1, and it seemed to neuter every speaker. I trust my ears way more than a cheap microphone thrown in the box.