iTunes 8K speculation

[The Watcher 69]

Okay, I know we're realistically years away, and Apple tends to be last with these things, but do we expect them to support 8K and, if so, when?

If 5G coverage reaches critical mass and the H.266 standard is ratified, that will break down some of the barriers.

Or will 4K remain enough for almost everybody?

[UHDuffer]

I think 8K will fail and never reach mass adoption rates.

Most tend to argue that the benefits that come from a 4K HDR image is not the resolution itself, but the advent and implementation of HDR for that content.

Sports and Wildlife photography not withstanding, IMHO, there is just not the benefits necessary to go for such detailed resolution with cinema.

Here's hoping we start to see some iTunes TV shows in 4K HDR.

[sea2000]

Originally Posted by The Watcher 69

Or will 4K remain enough for almost everybody?

This.

Heck, 2K will remain enough for many, maybe most.

[kannibaliztik]

8K for movies will never be a thing, especially for digital.

[jwsg]

The opposite in fact. 8K streaming will be the only way to make use of 8K TVs, and Apple are likely to at the forefront with an HDMI 2.1 ATV box at some point, although the studios themselves are taking more of an interest in streaming their own films.

[cleeve]

There's literally no point of 8K on home television.

It will probably eventually be used as some pointless marketing bit, but it will never be a thing beyond that, nor should it be.

[mlabonte21]

Originally Posted by The Watcher 69

Or will 4K remain enough for almost everybody?

4K will likely be the standard for a minimum next 10-15 years.

Physical movie releases have reached their zenith and there will be no future formats to drive physical and prompt new & expensive film transfers.

The only radical change I can see in 10-15 years would be a true lossless video codec and a radically new physical television medium that would benefit from 8K.

Something like a stretchable/bendable display type that a person could use to cover an entire wall in their home.

Even then-- it'd have to be cheap enough for average consumers to afford.

Another rectangular tv with an 8 instead of a 4 is not enough to warrant the amount of work for the reward.

However, there are reasonable things to look forward to:

iTunes could activate 4K for the TV section at any point in the future.

And Apple kicks ass with compression. Any year in the future they can announce some newer codec that will make the 4K streams look EVEN BETTER (they already rival 4K discs-- could potentially even surpass them someday).

[The Watcher 69]

Originally Posted by cleeve

There's literally no point of 8K on home television.

It will probably eventually be used as some pointless marketing bit, but it will never be a thing beyond that, nor should it be.

True, most of the current content showcased on 8K TVs is short-form demos.

Originally Posted by mlabonte21

And Apple kicks ass with compression. Any year in the future they can announce some newer codec that will make the 4K streams look EVEN BETTER (they already rival 4K discs-- could potentially even surpass them someday).

Well H.266 is just around the corner, which will halve data requirements again. So they may use that to deliver better-quality 4K at comparable file sizes.


Of course, 8K may just become the standard without people even needing to "adopt" it - like how 4K TVs are now the only option.

[The Watcher 69]

As this article points out, hardly any existing content will be able to be upgraded to true 8K: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbrea...k-tv-nhk-japan

[Canada]

Originally Posted by cleeve

There's literally no point of 8K on home television.

It will probably eventually be used as some pointless marketing bit, but it will never be a thing beyond that, nor should it be.

8K projectors are the only sensible thing. Joe Kane said we (most of us) have too small a 4K TV and sit too far away to get any benefit from the enhanced resolution. That's a 4K set. now imagine an 8K set. Plus the 8K TV's will still only be at 10 bit colour, the 8K set are not at 12 bit colour.

[Gretiem]

How about iTunes giving lossless audio .. that would be nice.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by mlabonte21

4K will likely be the standard for a minimum next 10-15 years.

Physical movie releases have reached their zenith and there will be no future formats to drive physical and prompt new & expensive film transfers.

The only radical change I can see in 10-15 years would be a true lossless video codec and a radically new physical television medium that would benefit from 8K.

Something like a stretchable/bendable display type that a person could use to cover an entire wall in their home.

Even then-- it'd have to be cheap enough for average consumers to afford.

Another rectangular tv with an 8 instead of a 4 is not enough to warrant the amount of work for the reward.

However, there are reasonable things to look forward to:

iTunes could activate 4K for the TV section at any point in the future.

And Apple kicks ass with compression. Any year in the future they can announce some newer codec that will make the 4K streams look EVEN BETTER (they already rival 4K discs-- could potentially even surpass them someday).

Streaming will NEVER surpass disc. Even if they somehow miraculously get enough bandwidth, the most that's possible with a given master is an exact bit-for-bit image of the disc, which by the way is what Kaleidescape carries. Everything is made for disc first, and then scaled down for streaming. The only way streaming could be higher quality than the current disc is if a newer disc with an even higher capacity was introduced for studios to create masters for.

[Poya]

Originally Posted by sea2000

This.

Heck, 2K will remain enough for many, maybe most.

DVD is still good enough for most people.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Poya

DVD is still good enough for most people.

Stuff most people.

[Gretiem]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

Streaming will NEVER surpass disc. Even if they somehow miraculously get enough bandwidth, the most that's possible with a given master is an exact bit-for-bit image of the disc, which by the way is what Kaleidescape carries. Everything is made for disc first, and then scaled down for streaming. The only way streaming could be higher quality than the current disc is if a newer disc with an even higher capacity was introduced for studios to create masters for.

I thought Kaleidescape has some movies that are larger than their disc versions such as Avenger's Endgame.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by Gretiem

I thought Kaleidescape has some movies that are larger than their disc versions such as Avenger's Endgame.

That's because these files also include a bit-for-bit copy of the bonus material on the Blu-ray and Bonus Disc that comes with the UHD package.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

Streaming will NEVER surpass disc. Even if they somehow miraculously get enough bandwidth, the most that's possible with a given master is an exact bit-for-bit image of the disc, which by the way is what Kaleidescape carries. Everything is made for disc first, and then scaled down for streaming. The only way streaming could be higher quality than the current disc is if a newer disc with an even higher capacity was introduced for studios to create masters for.

That's not how it works. For example, for iTunes the studios typically submit a master file in ProRes HQ, which has an approximate video bitrate of 220 Mbps (HD) or 880 Mbps (4K), which is higher than UHD BD's maximum bitrate. From this master, various lower-bitrate files are encoded. It is absolutely possible for them to offer files that exceed the capabilities of disc if they want to.

[Gretiem]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

That's because these files also include a bit-for-bit copy of the bonus material on the Blu-ray and Bonus Disc that comes with the UHD package.

I dont think that is correct.

https://www.kaleidescape.com/movie-s...s-endgame-2019

Go to download size and it says over 100gb for the movie .. no mention of extras.

[tjritter79]

Originally Posted by The Watcher 69

Okay, I know we're realistically years away, and Apple tends to be last with these things, but do we expect them to support 8K and, if so, when?
If 5G coverage reaches critical mass and the H.266 standard is ratified, that will break down some of the barriers.
Or will 4K remain enough for almost everybody?

Yes! 8K will "take off" and I know its a surprise to everyone....but I think it will be adopted QUICKER than 4K was, and here are my reasons/speculation.:

1) The HDMI 2.1 standard permits 8K at 60 fps. This is on new TV's beginning last year, and will be on more models (along with ATSC 3.0 chips) this year as more are released. The new Sony "J" series with all the buzz about Bravia CORE, will have these ports.

2) The release of the AV1 codec. Anyone (like me) who has been keeping track of this royalty-free codec supported by Apple, Netflix, Amazon, Microsoft, Nvidia, Samsung & others...is capable of 8K/120 fps with a bit rate avg of 160 mbps. This is already used on Facebook, is in limited-area beta testing and expectations this will be rolled out nationally in 2022 in the 2nd half of the year.

3) Manufacturing of "4K" screens will become the standard, 8K screens the large-format option (65" & beyond). This is NOT to say that all screens in this size will be capable of producing that type of picture. The boards/electronics determine the resolution/perks/options...but the industry is looking to standardize production within these sizes. It's already apparent that production of 4K sets are now generally LESS expensive than their HD/1080 counterparts at their comparable sizes and options. However all TV's 32" and under will be HD only. Monitors a different story, we're already seeing sub-20" monitors with 4K/HDR. If you recall when 4K debuted, critics were stating you "couldn't determine the difference" till you exceeded 40" screen size. Those same critics claim 8K isn't noticeable till you exceed 80".
https://www.newegg.com/p/15Z-05B8-00...2129-_-Product

The current next gen gaming consoles are also 8K "ready" with 2.1 HDMI ports should 8K gaming (which is the area where usage will drastically rise first IMO) become popular.

Yes it will take a "while" for this format to hit mainstream, but since it IS such a generational leap, I see this being adopted quicker by those who claim the difference from HD-to-4K was minimal, the difference from HD-to-8K is more pronounced. I also expect the format to garner a lot of buzz during the upcoming Summer Olympics as both Japan and S. Korea have satellite broadcasts planned in 8K. If we see a mass-production spurred increase in production along with a decrease in retail prices, it may be strong enough to stimulate interest in purchasing.

Then the question becomes "where does 8K content come from?" Well, since in the U.S. there is no 8K disc format, nor is there any satellite/cable transmissions able to handle 8K distribution, the answer is streaming through the internet. However due to current technology this could only be accomplished if the ISP was capable of 200 mbps or more. That means currently this is limited to cable-internet and fiber providers. While there are many who could take advantage of that speed, most of the U.S. is still woefully below broadband standards. Many still rely solely on DSL, especially in remote, rural areas. This has to be addressed and drastically improved before 8K can become accepted in the mainstream.

[tjritter79]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

Streaming will NEVER surpass disc. Even if they somehow miraculously get enough bandwidth, the most that's possible with a given master is an exact bit-for-bit image of the disc, which by the way is what Kaleidescape carries. Everything is made for disc first, and then scaled down for streaming. The only way streaming could be higher quality than the current disc is if a newer disc with an even higher capacity was introduced for studios to create masters for.

The "error" with that statement is you assume that the disc version you are seeing is the best available version. You are forgetting that the disc version you are watching is taken from a high-quality digital master, manufactured and lessened to blu-ray technology (2006) standards.

The "goal" of Hollywood and the studios is to present the "same" high-quality digital master into the home, especially if pandemics and closed theaters become an occasional necessity.

Right now you have thousands of theaters across the country who show movies "digitally" on screen from high-quality downloaded or delivered masters....film is used only for drive-ins and smaller non-chain theaters. While the equipment used here is thousands of dollars, mass-production and advances in internet delivery can easily replicate that experience in the home beyond the limits of current disc technology.