Movies too smooth on 4K LCD (not SOE)

[Flack999]

Hello.
Recently I made the jump from Full HD to 4K and it has been disappointing.
I bought a TCL (german model, they are a bit different from the US ones, but should be similar to Series 5 over there). 10 Bit Panel, 400nits, 60Hz, good contrast, supports all HDR standards, generally only very positive reviews on European video and hifi websites. Price range 600-700€.

But stuff just doesn't look right and I am trying to find out if this is a general problem with 4K LCDs or just this one model.
My problem is that all my films suddenly look way too smooth and clean. Motion especially has been bothering me on everything I've watched to far.

First, I know what everybody's first instinct is, so: No motion smoothing or True-Motion-like option is activated. All filters and smoothers are turned off, picture setting is cinema, Sharpness is zero, colors setting is warm - pretty much all the settings you're supposed to have for watching movies.
I am mostly watching Film. 23,97fps Blu-Rays or MKVs, some UHDs now too.

I come from a 10 year old lower-price LG LCD and everything always looked fine. Now, it seems everything is running in more frames or smoother frames than it should. Everything looks too clean and more digital.
I don't think it is just the resolution increase, cause some UHDs (like Alien or Blade Runner) can look properly amazing and filmic.
But everything else just has that smoother effect. Again - all picture smoothing options are off, no filtering (at least as far as I am allowed to turn it off in the advanced menus)

I am aware TCL had some issues with software and motion-smooting turning on by itself, but I think that is a separate issue. It's a whole other kind of awful when I turn that option on and I get the Soap Opera Effect. What I am talking about is more subtle.
I guess what I am wondering is, is if the new TVs and current ways to reduce judder and motion blur, generally has this smoothing effect on film?
So far in my home-cinema days I've had two Full-HD LCD and one 1080p Beamer - none of these ever gave me the feeling that film didn't look filmic.

I am sure most people would not even know what I am talking about and would not notice any smoother or faster frames, but it has been grating on me.
I feel like maybe it is just me and my eyes. Have I been watching films too long on a shitty LCD that had bad pulldown and judder and the new, better TVs are too good?
As stores only show their motion-smoothed demo shit, I can't really compare there.
I am considering returning my TCL to go for the SonyXH9005, but I am worried I might have the same effect of everything moving smoother than it does at the cinema or it used to on my 1080p Tv.
My TCL has 60Hz and the Sony would have 100-120, so maybe it seems even worse there?
Maybe that super crisp and smooth image of 4K Tvs is just not for me?
Does the MEMC of my model just does not agree with me and the Sony would feel better?

Maybe somebody has some tipps for me.
The simpe and easy answer is: get a new TV. But as everything else (contrast, colours, brightness, handling) of the TV seems great and my Ps5 Games look amazing, I am hesistant if the problem might not be another one.

[dcx4610]

24fps should be 24fps. It sounds like some kind of interpolation is going on. When I got my Samsung TV, everything was perfectly fine until I played a game and I got this crazy smearing effect despite everything being turned off. Turns, out it was some Game setting buried deep into the settings.

I would look for video game settings. Also, if you can post the model of the TV, we might be able to find the setting or more info.

60hz or 100-120hz will make no difference. I guarantee there is a setting.

[Flack999]

It's the TCL 55EC780
I have tried all the menus and options. There is a motion judder option that reduces the smoothness, but it is already set to zero and there is definitely more smoothing happening in 24hz content though.
I found one reddit post about a user with the same issue on another TCL, so maybe it's just their motion handling software in general? It seems to automatically interpolate in this way. I tried all modes and settings available to me.
One review of this Tv mentions something about motion looking very smooth on this TV, but lists it as a positive and not a negative.

Guess I will have to look for another TV (there are other issues as well)

[PrestigeWorldwide]

Originally Posted by Flack999

Have I been watching films too long on a shitty LCD that had bad pulldown and judder and the new, better TVs are too good?

I'm thinking this is probably the issue. It's surprising what your brain gets used to. When I made the switch from a 1080p Plasma to a 4K OLED, I had the opposite experience as you. The fast action scenes like in John Wick were not nearly as fluid and natural looking to me... it was as if frames were missing like when a video game drops frames when there's too many things going on at once. I tried LG's motion smoothing, but it made me nauseous so I quickly shut it off. I eventually got used to the motion difference over time so now it no longer bothers me. Plasmas are just better at handling fast motion than any other type of TV. I wish they made 4K plasmas.

Another thing to try is going through all of the menus of the 4K disc player. Most likely there's no problem there since the default settings are generally geared towards 24 FPS content. I did have issues playing MKV's using Plex on Apple TV 4K. I have to set the Apple TV at 1080p24 when viewing MKV's. For some odd reason, it doesn't automatically play digital files at 24 FPS even though I have the settings on match frame rate. Make sure you have the right HDMI cables. I had issues with mine when I first upgraded and had to swap them out.

[Flack999]

Originally Posted by PrestigeWorldwide

I'm thinking this is probably the issue. It's surprising what your brain gets used to. When I made the switch from a 1080p Plasma to a 4K OLED, I had the opposite experience as you. The fast action scenes like in John Wick were not nearly as fluid and natural looking to me... it was as if frames were missing like when a video game drops frames when there's too many things going on at once. I tried LG's motion smoothing, but it made me nauseous so I quickly shut it off. I eventually got used to the motion difference over time so now it no longer bothers me. Plasmas are just better at handling fast motion than any other type of TV. I wish they made 4K plasmas.

Another thing to try is going through all of the menus of the 4K disc player. Most likely there's no problem there since the default settings are generally geared towards 24 FPS content. I did have issues playing MKV's using Plex on Apple TV 4K. I have to set the Apple TV at 1080p24 when viewing MKV's. For some odd reason, it doesn't automatically play digital files at 24 FPS even though I have the settings on match frame rate. Make sure you have the right HDMI cables. I had issues with mine when I first upgraded and had to swap them out.

I know what you're talking about, I have that same feeling when I go from a 60fps videogame to a 30fps game. It seems all wrong and stuttery, but starts feeling normal again after 10 minutes or so.

With this TV it is something else though. I've been watching movies for 30 years and they never looked like that. Even when I compare to how stuff runs on my PC monitor, it is just not filmic and 24 framsey.
I found a german review that mentions that the 60hz display of my model has problems with the 24hz signal so it does automatic smoothing which can lead to the soap opera effect (even with the setting turned off).
Think I will really have to return it cause I am quite sensitive to that and so far it's been pulling me out of the movie watching experience every time.

My HDMI cables are all good. I also get the feedback from the TV that he receives a 24hz signal. Guess I shouldnt have gone for the budget option...

[dcx4610]

I found a possible solution/bug.

Apparently the judder/motion settings don't save properly when changing inputs. Start a movie at 24fps and then go into the settings and despite what it says, change Judder to 1 and then move it back to 0. Turn smoothing on and then back off.

If that doesn't work, I'm at a loss. If your input says 24hz, the TV is doing something to signal. I'm still convinced it's software. Is your firmware updated?

[profholt82]

It's worth noting that 120 is perfectly divisible by 24. So, if you get a 120hz panel, no frames will be dropped/adjusted during movie playback. I don't ever recall noticing judder or studder while watching movies on 1080p sets even though they were 60hz panels, but this is definitely an issue on 4k sets (at least to me). So, that would be my recommendation. Get a 120hz panel and turn off all of the motion interpolation stuff, and movies should look fine. At least that has been my 4k experience.

[dcx4610]

Originally Posted by profholt82

It's worth noting that 120 is perfectly divisible by 24. So, if you get a 120hz panel, no frames will be dropped/adjusted during movie playback. I don't ever recall noticing judder or studder while watching movies on 1080p sets even though they were 60hz panels, but this is definitely an issue on 4k sets (at least to me). So, that would be my recommendation. Get a 120hz panel and turn off all of the motion interpolation stuff, and movies should look fine. At least that has been my 4k experience.

This is accurate. Ideally, you want to find a true 120hz (or 240hz one day) panels for best performance. 24 is divisible by 120 as is 60 so you need no added frames/interpolation.

With 60hz TVs, there is always going to be some kind of software/hardware manipulation to display 24fps content. 120hz displays are the first time we haven't had to worry about that.

[PrestigeWorldwide]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

This is accurate. Ideally, you want to find a true 120hz (or 240hz one day) panels for best performance. 24 is divisible by 120 as is 60 so you need no added frames/interpolation.

With 60hz TVs, there is always going to be some kind of software/hardware manipulation to display 24fps content. 120hz displays are the first time we haven't had to worry about that.

Ahhh, that's interesting. Maybe that's why I had such as issue with motion when I upgraded from a Panny Plasma to the LG C8 since it's 60hz. Recently upgraded the living room TV to a LG CX which is 120hz. I thought motion looked better on that TV, but I just figured it was a placebo effect of having a nice new TV or maybe better software/faster processors than the C8.

[Flack999]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

I found a possible solution/bug.

Apparently the judder/motion settings don't save properly when changing inputs. Start a movie at 24fps and then go into the settings and despite what it says, change Judder to 1 and then move it back to 0. Turn smoothing on and then back off.

If that doesn't work, I'm at a loss. If your input says 24hz, the TV is doing something to signal. I'm still convinced it's software. Is your firmware updated?

Yeah I had heard about that one and tried it too. But this is another issue - though with kind of the same result.
If I change Judder reduction to 1, the effect is more extreme and closer to the famous Soap Opera Effect. When I go to zero, this is clearly reduced, but overall motion is still too smooth.
I am sure it is just a general software issue about how the TV handles 24p motion videos, there is probably no way for me to change it.
Like I said, it is very subtle, not as pronounced as actual Tru-Motion. But it is there. Most people might not realize it that it is there, but for me it was jarring.
It is most extreme in scenes that would feature more judder. Like camera pans or everything else, that might make 23,97 films feel a little uneven, the TCL works against it a little too hard and smoothes the shit out of it.
I am sure 99% of people would think this is a good thing, but I am a purist and I want the frame judder in there

That's why I will probably change it for the Sony with 120Hz display. Also I am sure I will have more options there. The TCL is rather limited in what it allows me to change.

[Flack999]

Originally Posted by profholt82

It's worth noting that 120 is perfectly divisible by 24. So, if you get a 120hz panel, no frames will be dropped/adjusted during movie playback. I don't ever recall noticing judder or studder while watching movies on 1080p sets even though they were 60hz panels, but this is definitely an issue on 4k sets (at least to me). So, that would be my recommendation. Get a 120hz panel and turn off all of the motion interpolation stuff, and movies should look fine. At least that has been my 4k experience.

Thank you!
After reading a lot about it, I think the 60hz display might cause some of my problems.
My old LCD had 100hz, which would probably also not be ideal, but the software at least handled the motion in a more natural way.
It just never looked as smooth and digital ever before I got this 4K TV and I was (am) worried that films will look like that from now on in my homecinema.
I think the Sony has 120hz and should be a better solution overall.
Still have 4 weeks to return the TCL.

[dcx4610]

Originally Posted by Flack999

Thank you!
After reading a lot about it, I think the 60hz display might cause some of my problems.
My old LCD had 100hz, which would probably also not be ideal, but the software at least handled the motion in a more natural way.
It just never looked as smooth and digital ever before I got this 4K TV and I was (am) worried that films will look like that from now on in my homecinema.
I think the Sony has 120hz and should be a better solution overall.
Still have 4 weeks to return the TCL.

Yep. Even 100hz would be better. It just multiplies 25x4. You have to have a keen eye to notice an issue there. It's not perfect like 120hz/240 and still requires interpolation but it's minimal.

Where as 60hz, 25x2 gets us to 50hz and it has to interpolate 10 extra frames. Hopefully I'm explaining that correctly but that's how I understand it.

Basically, 120hz is the way to go if you want interpolation-free viewing of 24fps content.

[Flack999]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

Yep. Even 100hz would be better. It just multiplies 25x4. You have to have a keen eye to notice an issue there. It's not perfect like 120hz/240 and still requires interpolation but it's minimal.

Where as 60hz, 25x2 gets us to 50hz and it has to interpolate 10 extra frames. Hopefully I'm explaining that correctly but that's how I understand it.

Basically, 120hz is the way to go if you want interpolation-free viewing of 24fps content.

Yeah. Thank you.
Quite a lifesaver this information. I already knew I probably had to get rid of the TCL as it was giving me no joy (except for Ps5 gaming in 4k), but at least now the issue is clear and I know what I have to look for from now on.

Thanks guys!

[PrestigeWorldwide]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

Yep. Even 100hz would be better. It just multiplies 25x4. You have to have a keen eye to notice an issue there. It's not perfect like 120hz/240 and still requires interpolation but it's minimal.

Where as 60hz, 25x2 gets us to 50hz and it has to interpolate 10 extra frames. Hopefully I'm explaining that correctly but that's how I understand it.

Basically, 120hz is the way to go if you want interpolation-free viewing of 24fps content.

Curious. What about 4K TV's like the LG C8 that are 4K60 and support 1080p120? Does that mean standard blu-rays wouldn't have interpolation, but UHD bd's would?

[dcx4610]

Originally Posted by PrestigeWorldwide

Curious. What about 4K TV's like the LG C8 that are 4K60 and support 1080p120? Does that mean standard blu-rays wouldn't have interpolation, but UHD bd's would?

I believe the C8 is a native 120hz panel. The 4K/60 spec is for displaying 60 frames per second. The TV will take that 4K/60 and simply copy those frames 1:1 to 120fps/hz.

But for movies, you are dealing with 4K/24fps/hz so it copies 5 times.

Theoretically, let's say they released the Hobbit in 48fps on UHD and you have a 120hz panel. 48x2 = 96 or 48x3 = 144. None of those numbers multiply to 120 so we need interpolation for the extra frames.

It's all about matching the native hz of the display panel. The panel is 120hz no matter what signal you are throwing at it in the end. It just copies those frames to get to 120hz.

This is how I understand the subject and if I'm wrong, someone please chime in.

[PrestigeWorldwide]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

I believe the C8 is a native 120hz panel. The 4K/60 spec is for displaying 60 frames per second. The TV will take that 4K/60 and simply copy those frames 1:1 to 120fps/hz.

But for movies, you are dealing with 4K/24fps/hz so it copies 5 times.

Theoretically, let's say they released the Hobbit in 48fps on UHD and you have a 120hz panel. 48x2 = 96 or 48x3 = 144. None of those numbers multiply to 120 so we need interpolation for the extra frames.

It's all about matching the native hz of the display panel. The panel is 120hz no matter what signal you are throwing at it in the end. It just copies those frames to get to 120hz.

This is how I understand the subject and if I'm wrong, someone please chime in.

I read more about it. You are correct that the LG C8 is a 120hz panel. Unfortunately, it's only HDMI 2.0. So I can get 4K 120 from internal apps and USB, but from anything connected via HDMI, I'm stuck at 4K 60 or 1080p 120. If it works by copying the frames to get to 120hz, I should be fine though.

[dcx4610]

Originally Posted by PrestigeWorldwide

I read more about it. You are correct that the LG C8 is a 120hz panel. Unfortunately, it's only HDMI 2.0. So I can get 4K 120 from internal apps and USB, but from anything connected via HDMI, I'm stuck at 4K 60 or 1080p 120. If it works by copying the frames to get to 120hz, I should be fine though.

Yes. 4K/120 is more of a PC/gaming spec. This is to allow for games to hit high frame rates at 120fps. That's extremely tough to do right now and requires a lot of bandwidth.

1080/120hz is also more for PCs/gaming where 120fps at 1080p is way more achievable and requires less bandwidth.

As long as your panel itself is 120, that's all that matters. The input signal just needs to divide/multiply or match the native panel's hz. If it doesn't, that's when there is a problem. The panel is always 120hz no matter what signal is being sent.

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by Flack999

stuff just doesn't look right and I am trying to find out if this is a general problem with 4K LCDs or just this one model.
My problem is that all my films suddenly look way too smooth and clean. Motion especially has been bothering me on everything I've watched to far.

Flack999, I had the exact same problem you did with the Samsung 4K TV I just bought.

Even when I turned off all the motion smoothing settings, the image from Blu-Rays and UHD discs of 24p feature films still looked faintly like there was some sort of motion smoothing - the image looked too fluid, almost like PAL-NTSC converted material.

I tried out The Post on UHD and Meryl Streep seemed to be in The Hobbit.

I struggled for days to figure out what was wrong, until a number of kind members in another thread pointed out the issue with a 24p signal going into a 60hz television.

Here's more info:

https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p

As you can see, when you input a 24p signal into a 60hz TV, it doesn't put each frame of the film onscreen for the same amount of time. Instead of each frame being visible for precisely 1/24 of a second, it alternates 2/3 so they even out by the end of the second:



A 120hz TV does put each frame onscreen for exactly 1/24 of a second, because it repeats each frame five times.

I had no idea about this when I bought my TV, and I thought it was 120hz, because it was misleadingly marketed that way.

I'm returning my TV this week and will shop more carefully for a genuine 120hz TV, what is known as "native 120hz," after the pandemic is over.

I'm like you, I watch only films on my TV. I don't watch sports or play video games or really watch broadcast TV at all, my TV only serves as a monitor for my Blu-Rays/UHDs, so it needs to display them normally.

I thought I was going insane at first, because the image truly did not look right to me, and I knew it couldn't just be my eyes being unable to appreciate the clarity of 4K. I was glad to learn what the cause seems to be.

Most of my friends have 60hz 4K TVs and are perfectly happy with the image, but I have learned the hard way over the last week that I'm in a tiny minority of viewers with unusually sensitive eyes, who can see this minimal frame anomaly, like you too.

I'm also like you, I never noticed this problem on my 60hz 1080p TV. I have no idea why, perhaps it was just hidden by the lower resolution.

For us, the only way to properly watch a feature film in 4K seems to be on a 120hz TV.

[Flack999]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

[Show spoiler]Flack999, I had the exact same problem you did with the Samsung 4K TV I just bought.

Even when I turned off all the motion smoothing settings, the image from Blu-Rays and UHD discs of 24p feature films still looked faintly like there was some sort of motion smoothing - the image looked too fluid, almost like PAL-NTSC converted material.

I tried out The Post on UHD and Meryl Streep seemed to be in The Hobbit.

I struggled for days to figure out what was wrong, until a number of kind members in another thread pointed out the issue with a 24p signal going into a 60hz television.

Here's more info:

https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p

As you can see, when you input a 24p signal into a 60hz TV, it doesn't put each frame of the film onscreen for the same amount of time. Instead of each frame being visible for precisely 1/24 of a second, it alternates 2/3 so they even out by the end of the second:



A 120hz TV does put each frame onscreen for exactly 1/24 of a second, because it repeats each frame five times.

I had no idea about this when I bought my TV, and I thought it was 120hz, because it was misleadingly marketed that way.

I'm returning my TV this week and will shop more carefully for a genuine 120hz TV, what is known as "native 120hz," after the pandemic is over.

I'm like you, I watch only films on my TV. I don't watch sports or play video games or really watch broadcast TV at all, my TV only serves as a monitor for my Blu-Rays/UHDs, so it needs to display them normally.

I thought I was going insane at first, because the image truly did not look right to me, and I knew it couldn't just be my eyes being unable to appreciate the clarity of 4K. I was glad to learn what the cause seems to be.

Most of my friends have 60hz 4K TVs and are perfectly happy with the image, but I have learned the hard way over the last week that I'm in a tiny minority of viewers with unusually sensitive eyes, who can see this minimal frame anomaly, like you too.

I'm also like you, I never noticed this problem on my 60hz 1080p TV. I have no idea why, perhaps it was just hidden by the lower resolution.

For us, the only way to properly watch a feature film in 4K seems to be on a 120hz TV.

Glad to hear there are other people like me.
I was really worried that all 4K Tvs have this effect and that from now on, I will only have to watch films looking that smooth.
I was seriously considering just buying another 1080p TV and just not go 4K at all.
Was so relieved when I heard about the 60Hz issue on here. Because now I know what to look for and what NOT to buy. What a bummer it would have been if I bought another 60HZ cause I didnt know better, and would have those smooth images again.
I am surprised it is not more of an issue among filmlovers, 60hz Tvs are so common but in all these years, I had never heard about issues with 24frame playback.
To me it looked so bothersome and wrong.

Anyway, my Tv will be returned on Tuesday, before Christmas. I will be without a new one for a while unfortunately, but I am waiting for a good offer on the Sony XH9005, which has 120 and should finally make films look filmic again.

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by Flack999

Glad to hear there are other people like me.
I was really worried that all 4K Tvs have this effect and that from now on, I will only have to watch films looking that smooth.
I was seriously considering just buying another 1080p TV and just not go 4K at all.
Was so relieved when I heard about the 60Hz issue on here. Because now I know what to look for and what NOT to buy. What a bummer it would have been if I bought another 60HZ cause I didnt know better, and would have those smooth images again.
I am surprised it is not more of an issue among filmlovers, 60hz Tvs are so common but in all these years, I had never heard about issues with 24frame playback.
To me it looked so bothersome and wrong.

Anyway, my Tv will be returned on Tuesday, before Christmas. I will be without a new one for a while unfortunately, but I am waiting for a good offer on the Sony XH9005, which has 120 and should finally make films look filmic again.

You'd be astounded by how few people have eyes as sensitive as ours, for better or worse we see things others just don't seem to.

I live in LA and work in the film industry and have a number of serious film buff friends who are very particular about their movie viewing habits, and none of them notice this issue on their sets. I've asked them all this week, believe me.

I first noticed it in March, a week before lockdown started, when I went to one friend's house to watch a UHD I had bought of Black Hawk Down on his 4K system. It was my first experience viewing a film on a home 4K system.

I was horrified by the image. At first I tried to be polite and accept it, but I couldn't. I finally said something, super apologetically and politely, and he graciously stopped the movie and tried all the settings on his TV, but after twenty minutes we couldn't come up with a solution, motion smoothing was entirely off on every possible setting, and we gave up and watched the rest of the movie, with me hating every minute of it in silence.

After that, I was afraid that 4K just inherently made movies look "unfilmic."

I intentionally bought a different brand of TV and a different brand of UHD player from his, hoping not to replicate the video flaw, but I was sickened when I finally got my new system set up last week and saw the same (to me) awful image.

I assumed it was motion smoothing at first in my comments here, and did everything I could to fix it for days, to no avail. I even wondered if the player might be causing it.

Finally, someone raised this 24p/60hz compatibility issue, and it explained everything.

It explained how I could see a very subtle motion smoothing/soap opera effect that resembled PAL-NTSC conversion smoothing, because it's really the same thing - framerates that don't match being artificially forced to match, resulting in uneven framerates and the appearance of artificial fluidity in the image.

IMPORTANT - I do want to add that I have not had a chance yet to try viewing a 24p signal on a native 120hz monitor to confirm 100% that this is the solution, but all evidence points to it being the answer.

I'll be returning my 60hz TV next week, but due to the skyrocketing COVID cases here in the US, I'm going to wait until things settle down to continue looking for a 4K TV.