The Last of Us Part 2 - PS5

[Fred Bang]

There’s no way the story will ever be redone.... because it’s fine as it is and it would piss everyone who likes it.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by Fred Bang

There’s no way the story will ever be redone.... because it’s fine as it is and it would piss everyone who likes it.

There's no way the story will ever be redone because Naughty Dog told the story THEY wanted to tell! Geez, in what other medium of art do patrons dictate to the artist what they can and can't create.

[StarkRomanoff]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

There's no way the story will ever be redone because Naughty Dog told the story THEY wanted to tell! Geez, in what other medium of art do patrons dictate to the artist what they can and can't create.

This exactly. They won't change the story and you can't ask them to so stop demanding it and move on. Unfortunately there are toxic fans in all media that think they own what others create. Just look at literally any comic film/tv show. But what we've seen with these fan game awards is that the vocal minority that were screaming and spewing hate about TLOU2 are only a minority and their voices do not matter.

What you can do as a fan that is healthy is hope for the stories to come. So given that nothing is confirmed and a PS5 version is only a rumor, if they were to release it I would want them to wait and release the upgrade with DLC to add new life to the game and incentivize fans to buy the PS5 disc/digital. I know what I want to see as DLC though that's more wishful thinking I know we won't get, and that's ok.

[Fred Bang]

Originally Posted by StarkRomanoff

This exactly. They won't change the story and you can't ask them to so stop demanding it and move on. Unfortunately there are toxic fans in all media that think they own what others create. Just look at literally any comic film/tv show. But what we've seen with these fan game awards is that the vocal minority that were screaming and spewing hate about TLOU2 are only a minority and their voices do not matter.

What you can do as a fan that is healthy is hope for the stories to come. So given that nothing is confirmed and a PS5 version is only a rumor, if they were to release it I would want them to wait and release the upgrade with DLC to add new life to the game and incentivize fans to buy the PS5 disc/digital. I know what I want to see as DLC though that's more wishful thinking I know we won't get, and that's ok.

I think loving or hating the story basically is determined by if you accept playing as Abbie or not. The goal is to make you feel uncomfortable at first and then have you rooting for her (even more than Ellie). If this works, you'll find the game incredible. But from what I heard, lots of people just gave up as soon as they woke up as her in the stadium and just decided to be pissed for the rest of the journey.

[ZHobbs]

Originally Posted by Fred Bang

I think loving or hating the story basically is determined by if you accept playing as Abbie or not. The goal is to make you feel uncomfortable at first and then have you rooting for her (even more than Ellie). If this works, you'll find the game incredible. But from what I heard, lots of people just gave up as soon as they woke up as her in the stadium and just decided to be pissed for the rest of the journey.

Neil basically said this same thing in "The Official The Last of Us podcast by Playstation". He said not verbatim

If you don't like Abby then you won't like this game.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by StarkRomanoff

This exactly. They won't change the story and you can't ask them to so stop demanding it and move on. Unfortunately there are toxic fans in all media that think they own what others create. Just look at literally any comic film/tv show. But what we've seen with these fan game awards is that the vocal minority that were screaming and spewing hate about TLOU2 are only a minority and their voices do not matter.

What you can do as a fan that is healthy is hope for the stories to come. So given that nothing is confirmed and a PS5 version is only a rumor, if they were to release it I would want them to wait and release the upgrade with DLC to add new life to the game and incentivize fans to buy the PS5 disc/digital. I know what I want to see as DLC though that's more wishful thinking I know we won't get, and that's ok.

A few problems with this analysis. Games are not art, exactly. They're products sold to customers. In the old days there was an expression: the customer is always right. In this case, the game is marketed as a sequel to one of the most beloved games ever, featuring one of the most universally appreciated characters in Joel. Millions of people had played as Joel for billions of hours of gaming, and could relate to him in a way that had rarely been achieved in even the greatest games.

You replace this beloved character with one who is difficult to relate to and you're just begging for criticism because you've disappointed many customers. Once upon a time, this was a very bad marketing strategy and a dumb idea.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by Gremal

A few problems with this analysis. Games are not art, exactly. They're products sold to customers. In the old days there was an expression: the customer is always right. In this case, the game is marketed as a sequel to one of the most beloved games ever, featuring one of the most universally appreciated characters in Joel. Millions of people had played as Joel for billions of hours of gaming, and could relate to him in a way that had rarely been achieved in even the greatest games.

There's another saying that goes "the vocal minority doesn't speak for the masses." Despite the whiners on social media, their opinion does not reflect the majority of gamers who played and enjoyed this game for what it is.

Originally Posted by Gremal

You replace this beloved character with one who is difficult to relate to and you're just begging for criticism because you've disappointed many customers. Once upon a time, this was a very bad marketing strategy and a dumb idea.

Criticism was inevitable and ND knew this going in. Kudos to them and Sony for being unwavering with their vision of what they wanted this game to be, despite the potential backlash. We need more developers like them. And I would hardly consider this a "dumb idea" considering all of the critical and commercial success this game has been showered with.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

There's another saying that goes "the vocal minority doesn't speak for the masses." Despite the whiners on social media, their opinion does not reflect the majority of gamers who played and enjoyed this game for what it is.

I haven't seen any accurate data on that. Interpreting social media posts amounts to naval gazing.

Criticism was inevitable and ND knew this going in. Kudos to them and Sony for being unwavering with their vision of what they wanted this game to be, despite the potential backlash. We need more developers like them. And I would hardly consider this a "dumb idea" considering all of the critical and commercial success this game has been showered with.

It's all relative. To really make an honest assessment, you'd have to make the kind of game I'd like and compare it to sales of TLOU2 that you like. TLOU2 was bound to be a blockbuster as a sequel to TLOU, and was bound to earn lots of accolades with all the resources Sony and ND threw into it, e.g., bundling it with PS4.

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

So the term "a famous work of art" is an oxymoron? Shakespeare's plays, The Mona Lisa, The Sistine Chapel, The Last Supper, and Beethoven's music aren't art either? All of them were sold to customers.

You're focusing on the most famous works of art to the exclusion of all else, including the broader point and the topic of the thread. Most artists are not famous but toil in anonymity (including famous artists like Van Gough, who achieved fame only posthumously). Most artists, including Van Gough, found it impossible to make a decent living selling art and were only able to indulge in it because they came from a prosperous family.

What is art? What do you call the thing (painting, drawing, film, game, song, sculpture, etc.) the artist creates?

Art is defined as "the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination." You don't need to ask this, and you don't need me to tell you this. Just stick to the conversation.

[Pi905]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

There's another saying that goes "the vocal minority doesn't speak for the masses." Despite the whiners on social media, their opinion does not reflect the majority of gamers who played and enjoyed this game for what it is.

Criticism was inevitable and ND knew this going in. Kudos to them and Sony for being unwavering with their vision of what they wanted this game to be, despite the potential backlash. We need more developers like them. And I would hardly consider this a "dumb idea" considering all of the critical and commercial success this game has been showered with.

I agree with everything you're saying here. The minority of people who hate on this game are very vocal about it, which is why they may seem to be a larger group than they are. 8 months later, and people (some of which who still haven't played it) are still making it their life's mission to let everyone know that they don't like it. If everyone who even somewhat enjoyed the game would do the same, the sound of the haters would be overtaken.

I also agree that it was the right move for Naughty Dog to tell the story they wanted to tell. Neil stated for years leading up to the release that not everyone would like it, so it's not like people weren't warned that it may not resonate with them. I think with this becoming the most awarded game of all time, that's proof enough for ND that their decision was worth it.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by Pi905

I agree with everything you're saying here. The minority of people who hate on this game are very vocal about it, which is why they may seem to be a larger group than they are. 8 months later, and people (some of which who still haven't played it) are still making it their life's mission to let everyone know that they don't like it. If everyone who even somewhat enjoyed the game would do the same, the sound of the haters would be overtaken.

I also agree that it was the right move for Naughty Dog to tell the story they wanted to tell. Neil stated for years leading up to the release that not everyone would like it, so it's not like people weren't warned that it may not resonate with them. I think with this becoming the most awarded game of all time, that's proof enough for ND that their decision was worth it.

None of that is based on actual data in terms of a percentage of people who enjoy TLoU2 relative to TLoU. It's pure projection based on your personal opinion with no numbers backing it up. Awards amount to meaningless glad-handing.

TLoU had 44,500,000 players as of November 19, 2020 while TLoU2 had less than one-sixth that at 7,200,000. TLOU has about 40,000 more new players each month than the sequel, according to the most recent numbers from Gamestat. None of that suggests to me that people love the story of TLOU2 or love having Joel replaced with Abby in the gameplay.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Just like the vast majority of art.

No, art is not a consumer product, it is the act of an artist, e.g., Amiri Baraka, aka Leroi Jones, Hunting Is Not Those Heads on the Wall.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Just be clear you don't consider any paintings, drawings, films, books, games, or music to be art? Especially not if the any of them have been sold by the artist?

Can you give an example of art?

I made a pretty obvious point that should be easy to accept in the spirit intended without a semantic debate. But yes, art is separate from a consumer commodity. I pointed you toward an interesting essay about this, if you want to get deeper into it. The point of the essay is that art in its pure form is not a product but the action of the artist that is fleeting in nature.

Art is rarely sold by the artist. In the case of video games, the production company pays people to develop a product; art is a small part of product dev. Obviously.

To then declare it "art" is inaccurate. More accurately, it is a product that the company which sold it to you invested in, and they expect a good ROI by catering to a customer base.

[ZHobbs]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

I really hope that's not true. Even in the first game Joel was a terrible person. He's a great character and it's a fantastic game but Joel is not relatable.

I always saw The Last of Us as being about about a harsh and unforgiving world where people will do whatever it takes to survive. That applies to both games equally well. I certainly didn't think that Abby was less relatable or worse than Joel: they are both people who have done terrible things but will fight for the people they care about.

Spot on. My friend asked me last month why people don't like it and my response was "The game made the world harsh and unforgiving." Joel is not a good guy at the beginning of TLOU but the game changes the way you see him as a person and how he treats & he starts caring for others by the end. Abby has the same parallel as Joel & when she meets Yara & Lev she starts to care for Lev and leave WLF behind. Some people don't make it far enough to see the parallels among characters.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

I really hope that's not true. Even in the first game Joel was a terrible person. He's a great character and it's a fantastic game but Joel is not relatable. I always saw The Last of Us as being about about a harsh and unforgiving world where people will do whatever it takes to survive. That applies to both games equally well.

I certainly didn't think that Abby was less relatable or worse than Joel: they are both people who have done terrible things but will fight for the people they care about.

Ok, but what's missing from that analysis is the primal relationship between a father and child, wherein the father's instinct and role is to be a protector. Like it or not, this too was always what TLOU was about.