Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[mar3o]

From another forum, the advice is generally to leave deep color off:

"Unless the Source content is 'Deep Color' encoded leave it off."

And I found this on thedigitalbits' review of a Samsung UHD player:

"One thing I discovered early on was that it’s important to set the UBD-K8500’s HDMI Color Format to YCbCr (4:4:4) and to make sure that HDMI Deep Color is set to Off. That’s easy to overlook during set-up, because you think “Deep Color? Of course I want Deep Color!” and leave this setting on. But HDMI Deep Color is actually a legacy Blu-ray feature (not an Ultra HD feature) that was meant to allow regular Blu-ray Discs to display 12-bit color (it’s normally 8-bit). But none of the studios ever really took advantage of 12-bit color on the format. Ultra HD Blu-ray employs 10-bit color HDR as standard, so if you accidentally set HDMI Deep Color to On, the player upconverts the 10-bit signal to 12-bit instead, which the display then has to convert back to 10-bit… resulting in terrible color banding. This is why a lot of people were complaining about excessive color banding (on titles like The Martian) in that first week after the format started arriving in early adopter homes. But once you get this setting right, you’re fine."

I think I'll try 4:2:2 12bit with deep color off and see what happens, and maybe also try out 4:4:4 10bit, also with deep color off.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by pbz06

The spec doesn't allow for 4:2:2 10-bit.

However, I think when you manually set to 4:2:2, and deep color "off", it's an untouched "10-bit" signal within a 12-bit container. I have no way of testing this nor any actual proof. Just speculation.

You can either choose auto/4:4:4 and 10-bit priority, but if you do 4:2:2, it has to be a 12-bit container. Where off stll sends 8-bit for SDR, and 10-bit for HDR.

Ideally I think my TV is better suited for 4:2:2 and I wish I can confirm I'm sending 8bit for SDR and 10bit for HDR.

What TV brand do you have? There are ways in which you can see the exact signal that is being displayed on the screen depending on the brand of TV you have.

[pbz06]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

What TV brand do you have? There are ways in which you can see the exact signal that is being displayed on the screen depending on the brand of TV you have.

Sony A9G

[pbz06]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

What TV brand do you have? There are ways in which you can see the exact signal that is being displayed on the screen depending on the brand of TV you have.

Just messed around now, and realized I can use my AVR to view.

So when I do 4:4:4 with auto/10bit priority, I can see my Marantz shows 10bit.

When I do deep color off, it shows a dash. It also shows a dash with any combination of 4:2:2.

So I guess no way of confirming if it's sending 10bit or 12bit when deep color off (Panasonic shows 12bit still).

[Geoff D]

You all are right, the Panny can't/won't do 10-bit 4K24 4:2:2 output. 12-bit 4:2:2, yes, 10-bit 4:4:4, yes, but not that. I know it's not "in the spec" according to some very old charts but the OPPO can do it just fine, e.g.

[Show spoiler]

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by pbz06

Just messed around now, and realized I can use my AVR to view.

So when I do 4:4:4 with auto/10bit priority, I can see my Marantz shows 10bit.

When I do deep color off, it shows a dash. It also shows a dash with any combination of 4:2:2.

So I guess no way of confirming if it's sending 10bit or 12bit when deep color off (Panasonic shows 12bit still).

Yeah, as of right now I can't see any information related to checking to see what current bit rates and HDMI signal is going to your TV. I know with LG TVs, there is a trick using the remote and settings menus to see the HDMI information that's on the screen. But I can't seem to find if Sony has a trick like that or not.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

Yeah, as of right now I can't see any information related to checking to see what current bit rates and HDMI signal is going to your TV. I know with LG TVs, there is a trick using the remote and settings menus to see the HDMI information that's on the screen. But I can't seem to find if Sony has a trick like that or not.

Does anybody know what this trick is? It would be great if I could get my LG set to show me that info.

Perhaps my Sony x700 was sending 4:2:2 10bit and that was why I wasn't getting those blackouts, whereas the UB420 can't send that out. I still have the x700 in the other room so if I could see what my TV was receiving, I could plug in the Sony and see what it was putting out.

[pbz06]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You all are right, the Panny can't/won't do 10-bit 4K24 4:2:2 output. 12-bit 4:2:2, yes, 10-bit 4:4:4, yes, but not that. I know it's not "in the spec" according to some very old charts but the OPPO can do it just fine, e.g.

[Show spoiler]

That's annoying, haha.

So when disabling "deep color" (off) and using 4:2:2, which the Panny still shows 12-bit in the playback info (but my AVR shows a blank), is it just a workaround and a container for the source to be as is?

I feel like we may have had this conversation many weeks ago, and you mentioned that this setting is more of the Panasonic being weird with their processor and that the color depth would still be 8bit or 10bit based on the disc.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by mar3o

Does anybody know what this trick is? It would be great if I could get my LG set to show me that info.

Perhaps my Sony x700 was sending 4:2:2 10bit and that was why I wasn't getting those blackouts, whereas the UB420 can't send that out. I still have the x700 in the other room so if I could see what my TV was receiving, I could plug in the Sony and see what it was putting out.

Yeah, it's pretty easy:

Make sure you are on the right HDMI Input

Go to the Full All Settings Menu

Scroll down to the Channels Menu and make sure the "Channel Tuning Option is Red" (Don't Click on it Though).

Then on your remote, hit the "1" Button 5 times in a row and it should pop up with Diagnostics Menu

Move your cursor or options to "HDMI Mode" and Click it.

From there, you can see the Full Resolution that TV is displaying, along with the Refresh Rate, the signal (YCbCr), bit depth (8 bit, 10 bit, etc), and the actual color gamut (rec 709, Rec 2020, etc)


And I wouldn't say that the 420 is sending the wrong signal. Depending on your TV, you can have HDMI Handshake issues from time to time. I had them when playing a 1080p blu-ray on my 820. For some reason it wanted to detect the resolution of the TV when the disc started playing the Logos. When I changed the resolution from Auto to 4K, it seemed to have solved the issue. You might want to try that and see if that solves it.

[mar3o]

I watched an hour of Westworld on 4:2:2/12bit with Deep Color off. Played fine but that's not much of a sample. Several movies played fine too last weekend. One odd thing though - when I hit stop and it went back to the main menu, instead of showing the menu the screen went to all snow - like old-fashioned snow like an unused UHF channel. I ejected the disc and closed the tray again and started up the disc, and then this time when I stopped the disc the main player menu came up okay. I'm guess it's just weird handshake issues with various modes.

[wxman2003]

Originally Posted by mar3o

I watched an hour of Westworld on 4:2:2/12bit with Deep Color off. Played fine but that's not much of a sample. Several movies played fine too last weekend. One odd thing though - when I hit stop and it went back to the main menu, instead of showing the menu the screen went to all snow - like old-fashioned snow like an unused UHF channel. I ejected the disc and closed the tray again and started up the disc, and then this time when I stopped the disc the main player menu came up okay. I'm guess it's just weird handshake issues with various modes.

I don't recall what LG model you have, but with my E6, and OPPO 203, you need to set the OPPO to 4:2:2 12bit. That was suggested on AVS forum in the OPPO 203 section. That's because if you set the player to 4:4:4, the E6 is going to convert it back to 4:2:2. So you might as well just set the player to 4:2:2 12 bit. Deep color on the player is not the same as deep color setting on the tv. Deep color on the player is on old option for the few SDR blu rays that had deep colored encoded on it. My Oppo 103D has that option that was recommended to be left turned off, and the 203 eliminated that option completely. Leaving it off, or leaving it on in the Panny, should have no effect on playback of SDR, HDR or DV material. So leave it off.

[mar3o]

Thanks. My set is the UH8500 LCD 2016 model. I have read some comments that leaving deep color on the player set to on can produce banding issues. I'm not sure how common that is. Sounds like turning deep color off might not solve my issue, but it can't hurt, so I'm keeping it off and outputting 4:2:2 12bit for now and I'll see how it does with that. I thought 12bit might overload the panel with needless data but unfortunately I can't set 4:2:2 10bit (unless deep color off outputs 10bit inside a 12bit container which we don't seem to know for sure).

[wxman2003]

Originally Posted by mar3o

Thanks. My set is the UH8500 LCD 2016 model. I have read some comments that leaving deep color on the player set to on can produce banding issues. I'm not sure how common that is. Sounds like turning deep color off might not solve my issue, but it can't hurt, so I'm keeping it off and outputting 4:2:2 12bit for now and I'll see how it does with that. I thought 12bit might overload the panel with needless data but unfortunately I can't set 4:2:2 10bit (unless deep color off outputs 10bit inside a 12bit container which we don't seem to know for sure).

My E6 is also a 2016 LG tv. So I bet your tv does the same thing, convert 4:4:4 to 4:2:2. So let the player do it, and therefore the tv does less processing.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by wxman2003

My E6 is also a 2016 LG tv. So I bet your tv does the same thing, convert 4:4:4 to 4:2:2. So let the player do it, and therefore the tv does less processing.

There is no such thing as full 4:4:4 Chroma for movies. Most, if not all movies, are actually 4:2:2 Chroma. What you are thinking of is 10 bit vs. 12 bit. As explained by Geoff, the Panny doesn't want to output 10 bit at 4:2:2 or 4K 10 bit at 24 fps. The Panny does output the signal at 4:2:2/ 4K 12 bit at 24 fps and then the TV has to bring that down to 10 bit. That is just the way it is for a Panny Player. However as Geoff mentioned, the Oppo 203 does the 10 bit 4K at 24 fps just fine. But, the 203 is hard to find now since Oppo stopped making players.

Full 4:4:4 Chroma does exist though. It's mostly used for graphic cards and hardcore PC and Console Gaming. This allows players to get the most perfect picture so they can take advantage of their graphics cards and play the games how they were supposed to be. The reason why Panasonic has the 4:4:4 option is that you can connect the player to an RGB capable monitor, which will allow you to take advantage of the full range. But with TVs, it's always best to keep it at YCbCr because they is the true color range of movies.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by pbz06

That's annoying, haha.

So when disabling "deep color" (off) and using 4:2:2, which the Panny still shows 12-bit in the playback info (but my AVR shows a blank), is it just a workaround and a container for the source to be as is?

I feel like we may have had this conversation many weeks ago, and you mentioned that this setting is more of the Panasonic being weird with their processor and that the color depth would still be 8bit or 10bit based on the disc.

I don't recall saying that they 'hide' one bit depth in another or that the info screen is in error, we'll know for sure if someone can independently verify what the output is. One thing I will say is that the output of Pannysonic's UHD players has been contentious for the last five years, the reason why there's a 10-bit priority mode is because the launch player didn't have a 10-bit mode at all, it output stuff at 8-bit or 12-bit and because some early 4K TVs couldn't handle 12-bit 4:4:4 (the TV's processing didn't have enough grunt) it caused heavy posterisation. People complained and complained and complained, even though setting it to 12-bit 4:2:2 solved it, so they added the 10-bit priority mode in a firmware update several months later.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

There is no such thing as full 4:4:4 Chroma for movies. Most, if not all movies, are actually 4:2:2 Chroma. What you are thinking of is 10 bit vs. 12 bit. As explained by Geoff, the Panny doesn't want to output 10 bit at 4:2:2 or 4K 10 bit at 24 fps. The Panny does output the signal at 4:2:2/ 4K 12 bit at 24 fps and then the TV has to bring that down to 10 bit. That is just the way it is for a Panny Player. However as Geoff mentioned, the Oppo 203 does the 10 bit 4K at 24 fps just fine. But, the 203 is hard to find now since Oppo stopped making players.

Full 4:4:4 Chroma does exist though. It's mostly used for graphic cards and hardcore PC and Console Gaming. This allows players to get the most perfect picture so they can take advantage of their graphics cards and play the games how they were supposed to be. The reason why Panasonic has the 4:4:4 option is that you can connect the player to an RGB capable monitor, which will allow you to take advantage of the full range. But with TVs, it's always best to keep it at YCbCr because they is the true color range of movies.

Movies are encoded to consumer video with 4:2:0 chroma subsampling, reducing the colour resolution to a quarter of the luminance. This needs to be upsampled back to full resolution for playback either in display or TV, 4:2:2 has long been the minimum standard for signal transmission in the HDMI spec because of historical concerns over interlaced content with 4:2:0. But these concerns were relaxed when trying to figure out a way to make 4K60 work on half-fat HDMI 2.0 chips, they hit upon 8-bit 4:2:0 as a workaround and 4:2:0 was then carried into the HDMI 2.0 spec proper for higher frame rates and bit depths.

4:4:4 - whether upsampled in the player from 4:2:0 or an actual "true" 4:4:4 device like a PC - still requires a lot of room to groove, even HDMI 2.0 couldn't actually use 4K60 at 10 or 12-bit 4:4:4 because it exceeds the 18 Gb/s bandwidth. But when watching movies it's still just upsampled, there are conversions going on at various stages of the chain. Is it best to have the player take it up to 4:4:4 straight away so the TV can then just convert to RGB (which is what the internal processing operates at) without upsampling the chroma? Or is it best to have the player apply the least fudgery to the signal with a 4:2:2 output and let the TV handle the rest of the upsampling? Some people swear by changing the player's output to RGB, which upsamples to full resolution chroma and means the TV doesn't have to do the YCbCr to RGB conversion, but I'm not convinced.

I've done a lot of checking of test patterns with combos of bit depth and subsampling but I just leave my player(s) on Auto for that stuff, most of the time they're outputting content at 12-bit 4:4:4 (12-bit 4:2:2 for 4K60) into the ZD9 with no ill effects. I do set them to 4K resolution rather than Auto resolution though just to minimise the amount of resolution handshakes that are going on.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by mar3o

Just watched an episode on disc 1 of the Westworld series 1 on UHD and there was a very quick flash to black, or some kind of glitch, quick enough that it didn't trigger the TV but enough that I spotted it. I played the scene back a couple times after the episode was over and it didn't happen again. Now I'm wondering if I should keep this player. I was really happy with the player last weekend as it performed flawlessly through the first 7 discs I've played. Today it has not been kind to me.

Is the 420 known for these flashes to black or dropped signals?

Same cables as hooked up to my x700 (cables for both player>receiver and receiver>TV are 18Gbps.), and that player never had any black screens during playback.

Could it be a setting in the player? Everything is mostly set to AUTO.

Resolution - Auto
4k60p Output - 4k/60p(4:4:4)
24p Output - Auto
HDMI (VIDEO) Output Mode - Auto
HDMI (AUDIO) Output Mode - Auto
DRR10+ Setting - On

Color Mode - YcbCr (Auto)
Deep Color Output -Auto (10bit Priority)
HDR/Color Gamut Output - HDR/BT.2020 (Auto)
SDR/HDR Conv (Network Service) - Off (What is this?)
HLG/PQ Conversion - OFF (What is this?)
HDR TV Type - Middle or High Luminance
25p/50p Output - Auto
HDCP Output Setting - Auto
Contents Type Flag - Auto
Audio Output - On
7.1ch Audio Reformatting - Off

Still Mode (paused video) - Auto
Seamless Play - On

Somebody on another forum had this issue with their UB900 and said it was a color mode issue:

"I have found a workaround to the problem and that is to set ycbcr to 4:2:2 output instead of ycbcr 4:4:4."

But my player is set to Auto. Not sure if I should change it or how that would affect the image if I did.

Could my Deep Color setting have something to do with this (10bit Priority) I set it to 10bit because my LG TV is technically 8bit with dithering to give 10bit color, according to posters on AVS. So I figured 12bit would be unnecessary and just add more data packed into the HDMI stream for no benefit. I tried to look up charts for various deep color settings/color modes at various resolutions/framerates, but I found conflicting information in some charts. What is the ideal combo of Deep Color and Color Mode for me to use for my TV? Can/should I try 4:2:2 10bit Priority? What should I set "4k60p Output" to if using 4:2:2 10bit Priority? What Color Mode is it using right now when set to Auto?

According to https://www.acousticfrontiers.com/uhd-101-v2/

"There is no color information beyond 4:2:0 on Blu-Ray or UHD Blu-Ray so it’s “made up” by the display upon conversion to RGB. I’m unsure if there is any difference in quality where the “chroma-upsampling” (as it is called) occurs – whether in display or source."

You may be using a cheap HDMI cable. You don’t ever want to use cheap HDMI cables from China. They are made very poorly and because of that, the signal can drop frames.

[Andrew Woo]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

You may be using a cheap HDMI cable. You don’t ever want to use cheap HDMI cables from China. They are made very poorly and because of that, the signal can drop frames.

[pbz06]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I don't recall saying that they 'hide' one bit depth in another or that the info screen is in error, we'll know for sure if someone can independently verify what the output is. One thing I will say is that the output of Pannysonic's UHD players has been contentious for the last five years, the reason why there's a 10-bit priority mode is because the launch player didn't have a 10-bit mode at all, it output stuff at 8-bit or 12-bit and because some early 4K TVs couldn't handle 12-bit 4:4:4 (the TV's processing didn't have enough grunt) it caused heavy posterisation. People complained and complained and complained, even though setting it to 12-bit 4:2:2 solved it, so they added the 10-bit priority mode in a firmware update several months later.

Well I finally got a chance to test the Spears UHD disc chroma patterns. Just as you advised and we assumed, whether you feed it 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 it appears as the same end result where Sony likely subsamples it down to 4:2:2 or rolls it off whatever. The end result looked the same to my eye, so my gut tells me to leave it as 4:2:2.

When I try 4:4:4 in Game/Graphics mode, it seems to fully display the full chroma with no rolloff.

I'll let it run as 4:2:2 for now, with Deep Color Off (which doesn't seem to do anything in my case since it sends as 12-bit anyway).

After a couple of weeks, I'll try 4:4:4 with 10-bit priority to see if I notice any difference...highly doubt it.

[Geoff D]

Game/PC modes always display the incoming chroma resolution with no rolloff, I wish I knew why this is so common on consumer TVs.