Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga 4K UHD (1977-2019)

[jeangreyforever]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

It's also very neat that the climax of the movie involves the two grandchildren of the two most evil people in the galaxy instead working to SAVE the galaxy.

Except Ben doesn't really contribute anything. After years of being told that Rey and Ben are the central protagonists (or flip sides of one protagonist) and then having the Dyad concept introduced to reinforce that, Ben is literally tossed aside so that Rey gets her shining moment. The Dyad didn't end up helping Rey at all, especially since Palpatine actually rejuvenated himself through their bond. The ending would have made more sense if both Rey AND Ben defeated him together with the sabers, rather than Rey wielding both sabers. It also essentially eliminated Ben's connection to Luke and Leia when Rey is the one carrying their legacy and seeing their ghosts at the end, as well as the fact that the Jedi voices all speak to Rey but ignore Ben. At least we can headcanon that Leia's voice wasn't heard because she was helping Ben out of the pit since her line to Rey was cut.

[jess1581]

My bad Jean. Ben also said nothing at the end either. His last line was literally "ow".

[bobbyh64]

Originally Posted by jeangreyforever

I'll also add that Hamill is hardly some creative visionary and he himself said there's a reason he's not a writer but an actor. Keep in mind that he wanted ROTJ to end with him taking on Vader's helmet and becoming the new Emperor. Interesting that all of TLJ haters who say that it wasn't their Luke and Mark agrees with them because the "real" Luke would never have lost his innocence or optimism, never had an issue with the fact that Mark wanted Luke to literally become evil at the end of the saga back in 83. So much for only Mark understanding his character.

Do you have a source for the claim that Hamill wanted Luke to go dark and take on Vader’s helmet and become the new emperor? All I can find is that Hamill told Lucas that he wanted Luke to go dark and he realized he was wrong after talking to Lucas about it. Also, after going dark Hamill wanted Luke to be redeemed, so that doesn’t mean he would’ve become the new emperor.

Source: https://ew.com/movies/star-wars-mark...edi-dark-side/

As far as Luke wearing Vader’s helmet, apparently that was an idea that Lucas had, not Hamill. Originally he wanted Luke to become the new Vader and team up with the emperor to fight the rebels. I find this hard to believe because it sounds ludicrous, but apparently that’s how Lucas originally wanted ROTJ to end.

Source: https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-return...-ending-awful/

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by jeangreyforever

I wouldn't call JJ's movies pastiche. More like nostalgia, since he wants to recreate his childhood memories of Star Wars, but the problem is that JJ doesn't really have an original thought of his own.

Originality does not equal quality. Everything in art is a remix already.

[jess1581]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

Originality does not equal quality. Everything in art is a remix already.

Flattery and nostalgic fan service does not equate to good quality either. Anybody can throw a call back to something and go "hey, remember that? Yeah, those were good times". At least Rian knew how to intelligently use nostalgia to serve the story i.e. R2 showing Luke an old recording of Leia from ANH. It served the character motivation and not merely a wink at the audience. JJ dips his creativity into shallow waters.

[jeangreyforever]

Originally Posted by jess1581

My bad Jean. Ben also said nothing at the end either. His last line was literally "ow".

That's all right.

I still remember how shocked I was when someone who saw the movie at the Hollywood premiere revealed that after Ben is redeemed, he literally has no lines for the rest of the movie besides "ow." I was sure she had to have been mistaken until I saw the movie myself. Although there are several scenes where it looks like Adam is mouthing dialogue but it was cut. And the novelization does give him a line or two (although I think it's only after he's dead and Rey hears his voice telling her "I will always be with you"). This just goes to show how much of a throwaway character Ben Solo was to JJ.

[jess1581]

Originally Posted by jeangreyforever

That's all right.

I still remember how shocked I was when someone who saw the movie at the Hollywood premiere revealed that after Ben is redeemed, he literally has no lines for the rest of the movie besides "ow." I was sure she had to have been mistaken until I saw the movie myself. Although there are several scenes where it looks like Adam is mouthing dialogue but it was cut. And the novelization does give him a line or two (although I think it's only after he's dead and Rey hears his voice telling her "I will always be with you"). This just goes to show how much of a throwaway character Ben Solo was to JJ.

Yeah JJ totally screwed that character over. Rey got to not only appropriate his lineage, but he dies and the force didn't even give a shit. I think Kennedy was too hard up on the "force is female" thing that Rey was afforded every convenience and crutch at the expense of other male characters like Finn, Ben, and Poe, as well as her own character development.

[Nothing371]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

In spite of killing Luke and all the other problems with The Last Jedi, I still thought it was the best, most inspired of the new trilogy and I would have been mostly happy with the trilogy if they had just given me a good ninth episode. I blame most of the trilogy's problems on Abrams, Force Awakens co-writer Kasdan and the people above them, for banking so hard on nostalgia and obviously having no plan. I can appreciate what Ryan Johnson wanted to do: let go of the old. Removing Abram's one-dimensional villain (Palpatine 2.0) and setting Kylo Ren up as the boss satisfied me, because it meant the trilogy might end being more unique than it started out as.

I became pretty nervous when it was announced that Abrams was returning. I feared that he would undo some things from The Last Jedi, like Rey being related to no one. (I'm sure someone will tell me that she was "obviously" being lied to, but from the way the scene was presented and the themes in The Last Jedi, I just don't sense that Johnson intended it to be a lie. I think there is even a Johnson quote that confirms he meant it as truth. Her being related to Palpatine now makes the small group of heroes in this series feel more exclusive and elite again. Boring.) But I didn't think he and the people above him would backpedal so hard in their panic as to even make Kylo Ren the pawn again and bring in Palpatine version 3.0. Rise of Skywalker is easily the most frustrating final movie of a series like this that I've ever watched. It's a dumb movie, for many other reasons.

So yeah, I'm one of those people you described for whom the Skywalker saga now ends with Return of the Jedi.

There is one thing I will never understand. I've been reading through these last fifteen pages and I can't get over how many people 1)loved TLJ, 2)were especially happy with Rian Johnson "letting go of the old", and yet most of all 3)were were perfectly happy with getting YET ANOTHER movie about Luke Skywalker.

"Oh Rian Johnson has such a great vision with his deconstruction of Star Wars!"..... that he made this movie 'The Skywalkers, Part 7'. Yeah, what a bold move to go back to the Luke Skywalker well yet again, and totes get over all the nostalgia overload from TFA amirite?

We had all of these new characters, were lacking a little bit of world building and development from the previous installment, and people's complaints are "I didn't like how they treated Luke". It's unbelievable to me.

[jeangreyforever]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

Do you have a source for the claim that Hamill wanted Luke to go dark and take on Vader’s helmet and become the new emperor? All I can find is that Hamill told Lucas that he wanted Luke to go dark and he realized he was wrong after talking to Lucas about it. Also, after going dark Hamill wanted Luke to be redeemed, so that doesn’t mean he would’ve become the new emperor.

Source: https://ew.com/movies/star-wars-mark...edi-dark-side/

As far as Luke wearing Vader’s helmet, apparently that was an idea that Lucas had, not Hamill. Originally he wanted Luke to become the new Vader and team up with the emperor to fight the rebels. I find this hard to believe because it sounds ludicrous, but apparently that’s how Lucas originally wanted ROTJ to end.

Source: https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-return...-ending-awful/

The part about Luke taking Vader's helmet and either becoming the new Emperor or joining the new Emperor is from The Making of Star Wars: The Return of the Jedi . It features a transcript of an interview between Lucas and Kasdan. Lucas suggested the ending, apparently without really meaning it, but Kasdan liked it and actually wanted to put it into play. Lucas immediately said no to that and how Star Wars couldn't end with an unhappy ending. The links you posted show that Mark expected Luke to turn dark and wanted that ending himself, but Lucas told him it wasn't going to happen and explained why ROTJ couldn't be darker than TESB as Mark wanted.

[jeangreyforever]

Originally Posted by jess1581

Yeah JJ totally screwed that character over. Rey got to not only appropriate his lineage, but he dies and the force didn't even give a shit. I think Kennedy was too hard up on the "force is female" thing that Rey was afforded every convenience and crutch at the expense of other male characters like Finn, Ben, and Poe, as well as her own character development.

The "force is female" thing actually doesn't even have anything to do with Star Wars. Kathleen wore that for some Nike campaign but Star Wars fans thought it had to do with SW and Kathleen was "feminizing" it as part of her "agenda." It's been adopted by members of the SW fandom since then though.

I actually don't think Kathleen is the one to blame here, because if anything, she always seemed to sympathize more with Kylo. Adam Driver was her casting choice and she fought against Disney to cast Adam in the role. She's the one who said that Kylo was created to represent the lost youth of today who are struggling and have no outlets to express themselves. And Rian Johnson was also Kathleen's choice, whereas it's long been reported that she clashed with JJ on TFA and JJ has always been Bob Iger's choice, hence why Iger brought him back for TROS.

Kathleen also had an interview for TROS where she reiterated that what stands out to her the most is the relationship between Rey and Kylo and what these two characters mean to each other. Meanwhile in the actual making of documentary for TROS on the Blu-Ray, Kathleen has a miniscule part and apparently her only involvement there is a brief excerpt about Kylo's mask which actually came from TFA. Between this and the reports that Kathleen asked Iger to delay TROS as it needed more time, but Iger refused as he had to meet the shareholders' demands for a 2020 release, I think it's safe to say that Kathleen wasn't in favor of Adam's character being shunted off. Especially since she fired Colin Trevorrow when his scripts all involved Kylo becoming a Frankenstein type killer with basically no redeeming qualities. I think it really just does come back to JJ and how for him, Rey was the sole protagonist, and every character, including Kylo, was just meant to serve her story.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by Nothing371

There is one thing I will never understand. I've been reading through these last fifteen pages and I can't get over how many people 1)loved TLJ, 2)were especially happy with Rian Johnson "letting go of the old", and yet most of all 3)were were perfectly happy with getting YET ANOTHER movie about Luke Skywalker.

"Oh Rian Johnson has such a great vision with his deconstruction of Star Wars!"..... that he made this movie 'The Skywalkers, Part 7'. Yeah, what a bold move to go back to the Luke Skywalker well yet again, and totes get over all the nostalgia overload from TFA amirite?

We had all of these new characters, were lacking a little bit of world building and development from the previous installment, and people's complaints are "I didn't like how they treated Luke". It's unbelievable to me.

Because Luke Skywalker was a requirement. He didn't need to be the main character, but he was definitely still important. We would never get the chance again. If you don't wanna make a movie with Luke, then set it a hundred or a thousand years in the future. But that would have been a hugely wasted opportunity with Mark Hamill not being able to play the role much longer and almost every fan wanting to see old Luke. Even with it needing to be so entwined with the original trilogy, Ryan Johnson's Star Wars felt more inspired than Abrams' Star Wars. I would say that most of the sequel trilogy's problems are because of Abrams (and obviously his boss).

[Nothing371]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Because Luke Skywalker was a requirement. He didn't need to be the main character, but he was definitely still important. We would never get the chance again. If you don't wanna make a movie with Luke, then set it a hundred or a thousand years in the future. But that would have been a hugely wasted opportunity with Mark Hamill not being able to play the role much longer and almost every fan wanting to see old Luke. Even with it needing to be so entwined with the original trilogy, Ryan Johnson's Star Wars felt more inspired than Abrams' Star Wars. I would say that most of the sequel trilogy's problems are because of Abrams (and obviously his boss).

nah, plenty of us would have been happy with a completely brand new trilogy. We would have been happy with focusing on only new characters. Rian Johnson could have done all sorts of things to take the brand in a new direction. The problem was he was directing the middle movie in a trilogy and that he should have paid more reverence and attention to detail with decades of preexisting lore.

I've read enough of your posts on here to know that you are hellbent on defending TLJ. Just like all of the other people who are upset that they didn't get the treatment they wanted out of the ST. But any movie goer should have been perfectly happy with an all-new story. Which is what the marketing and promotion told us this series would be from the start.

The showrunners cast a net way too wide that the entire array of characters suffered from it. The bottom line is that the new trilogy is a jumble of separate or even totally opposing ideas, with poor execution, and failed oversight, that could have come much closer to perfection if they were just given another year apiece to cook in the oven. That way the editors could have eliminated many of these inconsistencies and much of the uneven storytelling. It was a rushed project from the beginning.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by Nothing371

nah, plenty of us would have been happy with a completely brand new trilogy. We would have been happy with focusing on only new characters. Rian Johnson could have done all sorts of things to take the brand in a new direction. The problem was he was directing the middle movie in a trilogy and that he should have paid more reverence and attention to detail with decades of preexisting lore.

I've read enough of your posts on here to know that you are hellbent on defending TLJ. Just like all of the other people who are upset that they didn't get the treatment they wanted out of the ST. But any movie goer should have been perfectly happy with an all-new story. Which is what the marketing and promotion told us this series would be from the start.

Nah. I can admit that The Last Jedi has some indefensible problems, and I rank the The Phantom Menace above it. I did like it slightly more than any Star Wars movies since The Phantom Menace, though.

The showrunners cast a net way too wide that the entire array of characters suffered from it. The bottom line is that the new trilogy is a jumble of separate or even totally opposing ideas, with poor execution, and failed oversight, that could have come much closer to perfection if they were just given another year apiece to cook in the oven. That way the editors could have eliminated many of these inconsistencies and much of the uneven storytelling. It was a rushed project from the beginning.

I agree completely. I talked about this a few pages ago. These conflicting ideas are why I won't watch any of them again, including The Last Jedi.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

I would say that most of the sequel trilogy's problems are because of Abrams (and obviously his boss).

And you *still* would be wrong.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

And you *still* would be wrong.

Then who? Johnson? If you can't point a finger at anyone, then you're avoiding the question.

[Martoto]

So we're all agreed then. Everyone hates Luke Skywalker and they should never have brought him back.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by Nothing371

......2)were especially happy with Rian Johnson "letting go of the old",....

This is the biggest strawman in the TLJ discussion - if you liked TLJ you're on Team "Let The Past Die".

TLJ was dealt the problem of bringing us up to speed with past events, namely Ben turning to the dark side and Luke walking away from everything following the destruction of his academy. And in it Johnson gives Kylo Ren the motivation and the philosophy that following his destiny means destroying ties to the past which may have determined his destiny for him e.g. Luke, The Jedi, The Republic, The Empire, The Sith, his family and so on. He believes that doing so makes his destiny completely self made. He's doubling down on what happened with Luke in order to justify his defection and his turn to the dark side. It's no wonder that he gravitates toward an organisation called The First Order. He wants to erase the past so that his new society or whatever appears pristine and untouched by past failures OR past achievements.

That's an interesting idea to consider, vicariously, through the villain's story. Definitely far more interesting and convincing than the "From my point of view The Jedi are evil!" moment.

[Show spoiler](Honestly when Obi-Wan loses his cool at the dumb crassness of that line it's the only time in the prequels that I related to anyone or anything in it. Although I was exasperated with the script while Kenobi was exasperated with Anakin)

. Kylo doesn't see the Jedi as evil, or the Sith as good or any of that. He just has no use for them because they undermine his sole authorship of his story and his destiny.

Of course Kylo is wrong. Fundamentally, he's wrong about the past. But more than that it was complete folly to presume he could erase the past.

I don't know how so many people can't or won't get their head round the appeal of that being the villain's motivation or how other fan's can appreciate it without endorsing it. (It's like saying if you like Vader and ROTJ then you love joining the dark side to save your friends) It's ironic considering how many fans who are critical of the ST blast the franchise for being incapable of moving away from past icons.

[Show spoiler]It's like this sometimes.

[jess1581]

Originally Posted by Martoto

This is the biggest strawman in the TLJ discussion - if you liked TLJ you're on Team "Let The Past Die".

TLJ was dealt the problem of bringing us up to speed with past events, namely Ben turning to the dark side and Luke walking away from everything following the destruction of his academy. And in it Johnson gives Kylo Ren the motivation and the philosophy that following his destiny means destroying ties to the past which may have determined his destiny for him e.g. Luke, The Jedi, The Republic, The Empire, The Sith, his family and so on. He believes that doing so makes his destiny completely self made. He's doubling down on what happened with Luke in order to justify his defection and his turn to the dark side. It's no wonder that he gravitates toward an organisation called The First Order. He wants to erase the past so that his new society or whatever appears pristine and untouched by past failures OR past achievements.

That's an interesting idea to consider, vicariously, through the villain's story. Definitely far more interesting and convincing than the "From my point of view The Jedi are evil!" moment.

[Show spoiler](Honestly when Obi-Wan loses his cool at the dumb crassness of that line it's the only time in the prequels that I related to anyone or anything in it. Although I was exasperated with the script while Kenobi was exasperated with Anakin)

. Kylo doesn't see the Jedi as evil, or the Sith as good or any of that. He just has no use for them because they undermine his sole authorship of his story and his destiny.

Of course Kylo is wrong. Fundamentally, he's wrong about the past. But more than that it was complete folly to presume he could erase the past.

I don't know how so many people can't or won't get their head round the appeal of that being the villain's motivation or how other fan's can appreciate it without endorsing it. (It's like saying if you like Vader and ROTJ then you love joining the dark side to save your friends) It's ironic considering how many fans who are critical of the ST blast the franchise for being incapable of moving away from past icons.

[Show spoiler]It's like this sometimes.

TLJ had more on its mind than SW fans want to give it credit for. I'm still perplexed at the vitriol that the scene with Leia got. "She flew"... Like how simple and close minded can you be? Other than the fact that we all know which is Leia is strong with the force, been trained, and the idea that she used the force to pull her back to the ship(not fly... stupid), but man... it was a beautiful and touching angelic moment for our fallen legendary actress Carrie Fischer.... and that's Princess Leia dammit, recognize. How can fans trash such a great moment? Why was that one part so difficult to buy for fans out of all the sci-fantasy that SW has possessed throughout the saga?

[Warm Gun]

Before The Last Jedi, Carrie Fisher said her character was force-sensitive but chose not to pursue the force because of her responsibility to the alliance. She was right. I wouldn't have given her those amazing abilities. Doesn't help that it's explained with a badly rendered CG flashback.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by jess1581

Yeah JJ totally screwed that character over. Rey got to not only appropriate his lineage, but he dies and the force didn't even give a shit. I think Kennedy was too hard up on the "force is female" thing that Rey was afforded every convenience and crutch at the expense of other male characters like Finn, Ben, and Poe, as well as her own character development.

Rey is the worst character ever. Boring. One note. Zero struggles or problems whatsoever. She got out of bed one day and poof. Awesomeness. That’s bad writing. The other characters you mentioned all had solid setups but got ditched. It’s that simple. Kylo was easily the most interesting of the bunch and should have fared better then he did. TROS dumbed him down and ruined him. That’s on JJ.

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Because Luke Skywalker was a requirement. He didn't need to be the main character, but he was definitely still important. We would never get the chance again. If you don't wanna make a movie with Luke, then set it a hundred or a thousand years in the future. But that would have been a hugely wasted opportunity with Mark Hamill not being able to play the role much longer and almost every fan wanting to see old Luke. Even with it needing to be so entwined with the original trilogy, Ryan Johnson's Star Wars felt more inspired than Abrams' Star Wars. I would say that most of the sequel trilogy's problems are because of Abrams (and obviously his boss).

Agree with the part that I believe these sequels should have started way into the future and had nothing to do with current events of characters. It would have freed them to concentrate on developing the new characters and also freed them from preconceived expectations. But, you are somewhat right that Luke needed to be in these along with some of the original folks or not enough people may have gone to see the films. Star Wars without Luke, Han, Leia, etc? Ehhhh.

Last Jedi did a lot of things I liked and warmed up to. People had to understand that Luke’s grumpiness was somewhat justified after a life filled with lies, deceit, failure, etc. But his portrayal didn’t sit well with people overall. I get that too. That’s why his appearance at the end of the Mandalorian worked so well for tons of fans. That’s what they wanted. And they got it.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

And you *still* would be wrong.

Why so? They are entitled to their opinion. Force Awakens was decent but Rise sucked. JJ ain’t all that.