Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[tama]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

https://youtu.be/XbN00Sm0Bsg

But with DTM off, the TV will only give 1 tone curve for the entire movie, creating an overall dimmer experience than say the Dolby Vision version of a film. This video points that out. DTM acts like Dolby Vision and translates the static HDR 10 metadata into dynamic metadata. Again, I know DTM may have some and I mean "SOME" inaccuracies at times, but it provides a picture that is at least closer to Dolby Vision than leaving it off.

For us LG OLED owners, there is no middle ground. You either have a dimmer, less vibrant picture but be accurate with DTM off or you turn DTM on and get more of a Vibrant, lively picture but slightly inaccurate, and again I mean "SLIGHT!" The choice is really up to Scorsese as to what he wants. Both ways are correct because for LG owners, there is no middle ground when it comes to interpreting HDR 10 content on an OLED.

I would also like to add that even if you make adjustments to the Panasonic Optimizer (say changing it from OLED to Super Luminance or even to Basic Luminance), it still doesn't do much and does not match the Dolby Vision version of a film. I have tested this out multiple times, especially with Marvel's Avengers (or Avengers Assemble) in 4K UHD HDR 10 physical disc vs the Dolby Vision version on Disney +.

DTM is never accurate. Ever. It either crushes down a scene to preserve specular highlights or raises brightness and midtones resulting in an incorrect and overly bright image. And it's not slight.

Even in Vincent's video you posted he's not arguing for DTM. And makes it clear what I just stated. It's even brighter then the DV streaming presentation.

As far as Disney titles are concerned in reality their presentations tend to venture on the conservative side as far as nits is concerned and OLEDS will do very little to no mapping at all so that really isn't the issue.

The regulars here get that you like it and that's ok. But other posters looking for info should know that it's inaccurate and veers left of the PQ EOTF curve for HDR10 playback.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by tama

DTM is never accurate. Ever. It either crushes down a scene to preserve specular highlights or raises brightness and midtones resulting in an incorrect and overly bright image. And it's not slight.

Even in Vincent's video you posted he's not arguing for DTM. And makes it clear what I just stated. It's even brighter then the DV streaming presentation.

As far as Disney titles are concerned in reality their presentations tend to venture on the conservative side as far as nits is concerned and OLEDS will do very little to no mapping at all so that really isn't the issue.

The regulars here get that you like it and that's ok. But other posters looking for info should know that it's inaccurate and veers left of the PQ EOTF curve for HDR10 playback.

So tell me then how are LG OLED owners supposed to get as good as picture as Dolby Vision with HDR 10 without being inaccurate?? This is why Vincent posted the video. People have been noticing that the HDR 10 presentations of Disney movies are dimmer than their Dolby Vision counterparts. And honestly, this goes for a lot of 4K UHD movies. HDR 10 is naturally dimmer because of the TV's capabilities since there can only be 1 tone curve used. But to solve this, LG came up with DTM.

Again, as I have said, I acknowledge that DTM is inaccurate at times but it at least gets close to what is truly intended with a film (at least where brightness and HDR pop is concerned). Plus, why would you want it dimmer? The "pop" that has been advertised with these TVs is not there with watching HDR 10 movies. It's dim, and lifeless unless you turn the DTM function on.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by bnmdjm

Personally, I've tried your method on my LG CX and I preferred DTM off and for one simple reason: it elevated black levels. I bought an OLED for it's blacks, and elevated black levels are a deal-breaker for me. So 100% I'd prefer to have a dimmer, more accurate picture without elevated black levels.

I have actually never noticed this on my LG C9. Is your CX calibrated and what movie did you use to see the elevated blacks? I have also found that the Panasonic Optimizer set at the Super High Luminance Setting with nothing changed (0's on everything) looked the best.

[panasonicst60]

PUsokrJosh305

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by panasonicst60

PUsokrJosh305

But in all seriousness, I have noticed that the majority of you either don't have a calibrated set or have a C8 or B8. LG advertised they improved on the DTM function. It's still not 100% accurate, but it's something. I bought my LG C9 for the overall improvement of picture quality over my old 10 year old LCD. I'd rather not have it look dimmer at times than that LCD. If I wanted it dim, I would have bought a projector.

[panasonicst60]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

Tell me about it

If you put the following in your signature, no one would have a problem with what you say about DTM.

"The regulars here get that I like DTM. But other posters looking for info should know that it's inaccurate and veers left of the PQ EOTF curve for HDR10 playback."

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by panasonicst60

Tell me about it

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by panasonicst60

"The regulars here get that I like DTM. But other posters looking for info should know that it's inaccurate"

But I have said that, multiple times that it is indeed inaccurate but it does, to me, a better job looking like the Dolby Vision version of a film than leaving it off. It's just not 100% perfect because LG's algorithm isn't perfect. The only thing that is perfect is Dolby Vision and unfortunately most discs don't have that option so either, you have a dimmer overall picture or you sacrifice some accuracy for a brighter, and honestly, more lively picture.

[tama]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

But in all seriousness, I have noticed that the majority of you either don't have a calibrated set or have a C8 or B8. LG advertised they improved on the DTM function. It's still not 100% accurate, but it's something. I bought my LG C9 for the overall improvement of picture quality over my old 10 year old LCD. I'd rather not have it look dimmer at times than that LCD. If I wanted it dim, I would have bought a projector.

It's these post I take issue with. Your C9 came from VE if I remember correctly and calibrated, with DTM set to off. You decided to use and activate it.

But you question other owners as if that's the issue when it isn't. It isn't a calibration issue and calibrators have notated this in the past.

You're trying to make an argument for its accuracy. No one minds if on a personal level someone wants to utilize it. At the same time accurate information in these threads need to matter for new users.

And I'd argue against the POP factor. When a high nit object on screen, say a bright sun in the background, is displayed the entire screen will crush down in DTM mode which defeats the its too dim argument. Another example is you're knee capping OLEDs greater strength in infinite contrast. A flame, or explosion, or say a bolt of lightning a nightime scene will come across flat because now blacks are elevated so instead of contrasting a bright object against a dark image you have a brighter, flatter image overall. I believe you also stated in the past you watch your set in a bright room which defeats some of an OLEDs strengths.

[the sordid sentinel]

Hello everyone. I've been considering buying the 820 player. I've seen some issues here, but I understand that goes with the territory in dedicated enthusiasts discussions. Overall would you guys recommend the player?

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by the sordid sentinel

Hello everyone. I've been considering buying the 820 player. I've seen some issues here, but I understand that goes with the territory in dedicated enthusiasts discussions. Overall would you guys recommend the player?

If you cannot afford the 9000 with the overall better, less sensitive optical drive, then purchase the 820. Maybe there will be another sale at some point.


Hopefully, Panasonic will get on the ball and start supporting their 4k players again.

[bnmdjm]

Originally Posted by the sordid sentinel

Hello everyone. I've been considering buying the 820 player. I've seen some issues here, but I understand that goes with the territory in dedicated enthusiasts discussions. Overall would you guys recommend the player?

Even as someone experiencing some of the admittedly annoying but not deal-breaking problems, I would still recommend the player. It's a significant step up over some of the entry level players like the Sony X700 or the Playstation 5. Many here, such as myself, are striving for perfection

[Nori]

Originally Posted by Matthew.H

It must depend drive to drive as I have the 820 and my player has been fine with every disc I've played apart from the known DV bug with Knives Out.

What's the Knives Out DV bug? I have that film and didn't notice any problem with it.

[Farerb]

My current player is LG UP870, but it sometimes makes an annoying noise when I put a 4K disc so I decided to order the Panasonic UB820, hope I didn't make a mistake.

[the sordid sentinel]

Originally Posted by bnmdjm

Even as someone experiencing some of the admittedly annoying but not deal-breaking problems, I would still recommend the player. It's a significant step up over some of the entry level players like the Sony X700 or the Playstation 5. Many here, such as myself, are striving for perfection

The X700 is what I'm currently using. Thanks for the input.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by tama

It's these post I take issue with. Your C9 came from VE if I remember correctly and calibrated, with DTM set to off. You decided to use and activate it.

But you question other owners as if that's the issue when it isn't. It isn't a calibration issue and calibrators have notated this in the past.

You're trying to make an argument for its accuracy. No one minds if on a personal level someone wants to utilize it. At the same time accurate information in these threads need to matter for new users.

And I'd argue against the POP factor. When a high nit object on screen, say a bright sun in the background, is displayed the entire screen will crush down in DTM mode which defeats the its too dim argument. Another example is you're knee capping OLEDs greater strength in infinite contrast. A flame, or explosion, or say a bolt of lightning a nightime scene will come across flat because now blacks are elevated so instead of contrasting a bright object against a dark image you have a brighter, flatter image overall. I believe you also stated in the past you watch your set in a bright room which defeats some of an OLEDs strengths.

Yes, my LG C9 was calibrated by VE so yes I decided to use it on my own free will.

I am questioning people about calibration because my results from my experiences are from a calibrated set. Those who don't have a calibrated set may experience different result, therefore making it look worse than what DTM actually may be on a calibrated set like my own.

As I said before, I have acknowledged that it may be inaccurate. I letting the user know that, "Hey, it's ok to choose this setting." I'm not saying "It's the only way." Again it all goes back to their own experimenting.

DTM will either darken or brighten things on the screen depending on the content. This is done by a frame by frame or scene by scene basis, very similar to Dolby Vision. As we all know though, Dolby Vision is better because that algorithm is better set.

Right before typing this, I went back and forth between Soul on 4K UHD Blu-ray disc HDR 10 and the Dolby Vision version of the film on Disney +. I used the opening scene in Joe's classroom. When watching the 4K HDR 10 disc without DTM, the light coming from the classroom looked rather dim and didn't seem like much light was coming in. This was compared to the Dolby Vision version, which looked like light was coming from a window. I turned DTM on and Boom, it looked like there was light coming from the window. It almost looked on par with the Dolby Vision Version. It might have been a bit brighter, but it at least looked like there was light there and a lot closer to the Dolby Vision version than when DTM was turned "off. Btw, I did this with all of my blinds and curtains closed because yes I watch in a more windowed area, but it didn't make a difference.

I am finding that people are just pausing a movie and flipping between DTM being "On" and "Off" and then basing their decisions by that. In reality, if you have it on and just let the movie play, those scenes that seem to darken more or brighten more when paused don't look as dark or bright when moving. When paused, the algorithm only has to read that paused frame on screen so it adjusts, but when playing a movie, it has to constantly read each second so the scene darkening or brightening isn't as abrupt. This is where I feel Vincent has gone wrong with demonstrating DTM.


Again, it's NOT PERFECT. Dolby Vision is the only perfect implementation of "dynamic tone mapping" (not the function). But most discs don't have that so we have to do what we have to do.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by farerb

My current player is LG UP870, but it sometimes makes an annoying noise when I put a 4K disc so I decided to order the Panasonic UB820, hope I didn't make a mistake.

You aren't making a mistake. The 820 and 9000 are the best 4K players on the market right now. I am unsure as to why people are having issues as I haven't had any issues with my player other than ones that I figured out wasn't related to the player itself.

[RJ MacReady]

Is it worth getting this player for the HDR optimizer?

I have a 2016 HDR TV (LGUH8500), and the HDR adjustments apps on the Xbox Series X and PS5 make a world of difference for getting a good HDR picture. I assume this would work in the same way?

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by RJ MacReady

Is it worth getting this player for the HDR optimizer?

I have a 2016 HDR TV (LGUH8500), and the HDR adjustments apps on the Xbox Series X and PS5 make a world of difference for getting a good HDR picture. I assume this would work in the same way?

Yes!! Your TV is perfect for the HDR Optimizer. It sounds like your HDR TV is one of the older ones, so the Optimizer has a setting called "Basic Luminance." Basically, the TV will Tone Map up to 500 nits of HDR content and the Player will Tone Map the rest. It's an amazing feature of the Panasonic 4K players!

[RJ MacReady]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

Yes!! Your TV is perfect for the HDR Optimizer. It sounds like your HDR TV is one of the older ones, so the Optimizer has a setting called "Basic Luminance." Basically, the TV will Tone Map up to 500 nits of HDR content and the Player will Tone Map the rest. It's an amazing feature of the Panasonic 4K players!

Thanks!

I want to upgrade to a better UHD player, but I'm having a hard time justifying the $200 more this one costs over the Sony X800m2. But sounds like the optimizer alone might be worth it.