The Saint (97) 24/5/21

[Scottishguy]

https://store.hmv.com/store/film-tv/blu-ray/the-saint

[Agent Kay]

Glad it's cheap, even if it's the old master

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by Agent Kay

Glad it's cheap, even if it's the old master

You never know with Paramount. They might have commissioned a new 8K scan. Would not surprise me.

[Aclea]

Unfortunately even though they created a neg for the original cut with very different ending expressly for a future home video special edition, it's just the theatrical cut.

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by Aclea

Unfortunately even though they created a neg for the original cut with very different ending expressly for a future home video special edition, it's just the theatrical cut.

How very.....random.

Also I should have put the production year in the title before someone has a go at me for thinking this was the Roger Moore one.

Phew. Fixed.

[Aclea]

It's not just a minor change either - it's pretty much the entire third act and an estimated half hour after one character is killed (which preview audiences hated). There's quite a bit of footage in the first trailer (as is the case with the 1998 Avengers) and a few of the most spectacular minutes made it into a Russian VHS in some form and were on youtube.

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by Aclea

It's not just a minor change either - it's pretty much the entire third act and an estimated half hour after one character is killed (which preview audiences hated). There's quite a bit of footage in the first trailer (as is the case with the 1998 Avengers) and a few of the most spectacular minutes made it into a Russian VHS in some form and were on youtube.

Maybe Paramount has just forgotten it exists. I do wonder how they are selecting what to bring to market
, because it almost seems like they are using a computer.


I mean if they done an actual survey of what should get a 4K or upwards scan and release. What would you say would win between Seven Men From Now or, The Last Train To Gun Hill? I'm going with the former by a landslide.

And that's the kind of thing the shut up and just be grateful the mountains giving out crowd are forgetting.

[Aclea]

I had rather suspected they forgot myself, though I have to admit while I'd like both Westerns, Last Train from Gun Hill would be my if I had to choice, though in that case it's probably more down to Paramount owning it and having full access to the master material while Seven Men from Now is licensed from the John Wayne Estate. I'm pretty sure historic sales figures are also a factor.

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by Aclea

I had rather suspected they forgot myself, though I have to admit while I'd like both Westerns, Last train from Gun Hill would be my if I had to choice, though in that case it's probably more down to Paramount owning it and having full access to the master material while Seven Men from Now is licensed from the John Wayne Estate. I'm pretty sure historic sales figures are also a factor.

Now that brings more sense to the matter.

[Aclea]

That Russian footage from the deleted ending (though it's missing a lot from the original ending):

The Saint Alternate Ending - YouTube

Legend has it that Val Kilmer was being so Val Kilmer on the Russian shoot that a delegate from the thoroughly pissed off Russian crew approached Philip Noyce and said that the crew would gladly hold a whipround to hire a hitman of their aquaintance if Noyce wanted: Noyce apparently thought about it for a moment and politely turned down the offer because "We might need him for reshoots." How little he knew...

[indisposed]

I still don't know how to feel about this film. It's boring, doesn't have much in common with the Roger Moore series (never read the books, so maybe it's more faithful to them), has some awful dialogue and Val Kilmer's disguises make Hannibal Smith's look like work of the T-1000...

but then there's Elisabeth Shue.

I might bite on this depending on what the transfer looks like ; I must admit the cinematography is its saving grace, apart from Ms Shue.

[Aclea]

I like Graeme Revell's score as well, but it's one of those yes/no/maybe films for me too. The best Saint film to date is the first:



"It's my job to catch men who break the law. Why, if an archangel came down here to cure a leper and parked on the wrong side of the street, I'd have to give him a ticket."
"Yeah, but a saint ought to get his ticket fixed."

Originally intended as a big budget Fredric March-John Cromwell vehicle and briefly mooted as Alfred Hitchcock's first American film before RKO decided to go with contract director Ben Holmes, 1938's The Saint in New York is the closest to Leslie Charteris' original character as the movies or TV ever got. Less a benign Robin Hood, he's a man who seeks his thrills by taking on criminals from the wrong side of the law (that is when he's not starting revolutions in South America), here moving from stealing from them to killing them as a vigilante hired by both the police commissioner and an anti-crime committee of big businessmen. As he boasts, despite having "an Englishman's aversion to arrest," he enjoys being careless and he really loves his work, whether he's gleefully playing with Charles Halton's crooked mouthpiece like a cat with a cornered wounded mouse or taunting Sig Rumann's mobster with a penchant for sending underlings who've outlived their usefulness into the other room for a moment. Part punk, part poet, it helps that Hayward's gifted with such great dialogue that even Paul Guilfoyle's hoodlum (a real gem of a performance) is as impressed as he is confused by his eloquence and sang froid: "Just like out of a book. I never heard such talk."

You can see the final twist coming by the halfway point but, surprisingly for a post-Code film, it inhabits very morally murky waters getting there. The police not only condone his actions but give him his gun back when he forgets it on a car seat and exhibit a wonderfully practical sense of cynicism that feels more pre-Code early-Thirties Warners Bros. than late thirties RKO: when the Saint claims his first victim, cop on the case Jonathan Hale's reaction on seeing the dying man is to bark "Call an ambulance. I hope it comes too late," while `The Big Fella's' favored femme fatale is openly fickle with her affections, casually admitting "I have no notions of loyalty. I help those persons who win my admiration for the moment," and naturally winning our hero's heart since his code is very much the same.

Sadly Hayward, loaned out for the picture by producer Edward Small, wasn't able to return for the sequels, with the character being reworked to play more to George Sanders' strengths. As a result, this is very much a one-of-a-kind entry in the series, and such an enjoyable one that it's a real pity it didn't continue on similar lines. There's always the thin hope that the latest mooted adaptation in development follows its lead and goes back to the character's less clean-cut roots, but if it doesn't we'll always have New York...

The only one of the RKO Saint films not released by Warner Archive in the States, the UK DVD from Odeon isn't a great transfer but surprisingly is a noticeable improvement over the BBC's print (which also has poor sound quality) and is certainly acceptable considering the film's comparative rarity.

[Scottishguy]

[Show spoiler]

Originally Posted by Aclea

I like Graeme Revell's score as well, but it's one of those yes/no/maybe films for me too. The best Saint film to date is the first:



"It's my job to catch men who break the law. Why, if an archangel came down here to cure a leper and parked on the wrong side of the street, I'd have to give him a ticket."
"Yeah, but a saint ought to get his ticket fixed."

Originally intended as a big budget Fredric March-John Cromwell vehicle and briefly mooted as Alfred Hitchcock's first American film before RKO decided to go with contract director Ben Holmes, 1938's The Saint in New York is the closest to Leslie Charteris' original character as the movies or TV ever got. Less a benign Robin Hood, he's a man who seeks his thrills by taking on criminals from the wrong side of the law (that is when he's not starting revolutions in South America), here moving from stealing from them to killing them as a vigilante hired by both the police commissioner and an anti-crime committee of big businessmen. As he boasts, despite having "an Englishman's aversion to arrest," he enjoys being careless and he really loves his work, whether he's gleefully playing with Charles Halton's crooked mouthpiece like a cat with a cornered wounded mouse or taunting Sig Rumann's mobster with a penchant for sending underlings who've outlived their usefulness into the other room for a moment. Part punk, part poet, it helps that Hayward's gifted with such great dialogue that even Paul Guilfoyle's hoodlum (a real gem of a performance) is as impressed as he is confused by his eloquence and sang froid: "Just like out of a book. I never heard such talk."

You can see the final twist coming by the halfway point but, surprisingly for a post-Code film, it inhabits very morally murky waters getting there. The police not only condone his actions but give him his gun back when he forgets it on a car seat and exhibit a wonderfully practical sense of cynicism that feels more pre-Code early-Thirties Warners Bros. than late thirties RKO: when the Saint claims his first victim, cop on the case Jonathan Hale's reaction on seeing the dying man is to bark "Call an ambulance. I hope it comes too late," while `The Big Fella's' favored femme fatale is openly fickle with her affections, casually admitting "I have no notions of loyalty. I help those persons who win my admiration for the moment," and naturally winning our hero's heart since his code is very much the same.

Sadly Hayward, loaned out for the picture by producer Edward Small, wasn't able to return for the sequels, with the character being reworked to play more to George Sanders' strengths. As a result, this is very much a one-of-a-kind entry in the series, and such an enjoyable one that it's a real pity it didn't continue on similar lines. There's always the thin hope that the latest mooted adaptation in development follows its lead and goes back to the character's less clean-cut roots, but if it doesn't we'll always have New York...

The only one of the RKO Saint films not released by Warner Archive in the States, the UK DVD from Odeon isn't a great transfer but surprisingly is a noticeable improvement over the BBC's print (which also has poor sound quality) and is certainly acceptable considering the film's comparative rarity.

Gentlemen, Aclea. Your resident film encyclopedia.

[indisposed]

Originally Posted by Aclea

That Russian footage from the deleted ending (though it's missing a lot from the original ending):

The Saint Alternate Ending - YouTube

Legend has it that Val Kilmer was being so Val Kilmer on the Russian shoot that a delegate from the thoroughly pissed off Russian crew approached Philip Noyce and said that the crew would gladly hold a whipround to hire a hitman if Noyce wanted: Noyce apparently thought about it for a moment and politely turned down the offer because "We might need him for reshoots." How little he knew...

It's amazing how willing the studios are to spend money on expensive scenes like this and never use them for arbitrary reasons.

As for Kilmer... one genuinely positive thing I will say about the film, is he and Shue had pretty good on-screen chemistry; that's no mean feat considering his reputation as a locust muncher at the time.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by indisposed

It's amazing how willing the studios are to spend money on expensive scenes like this and never use them for arbitrary reasons.

In this case not quite so arbitrary - in the original cut

[Show spoiler]Shue was murdered in London and he returned to Russia for revenge, and with Shue the most popular character

with preview audiences that went down really badly. The Russian cut found a way to salvage at least part of it while

[Show spoiler] keeping her alive

(just as the original spectacular and hideously expensive unhappy ending to Little Shop of Horrors could have been retained as a dream scene), but it's a mystery why they didn't keep that version for the rest of the world. Even more not going back to the preserved first cut on blu when that's the version what fanbase the film has have been asking for for years

[indisposed]

Originally Posted by Aclea

it's a mystery why they didn't keep that version for the rest of the world. Even more not going back to the preserved first cut on blu when that's the version what fanbase the film has have been asking for for years

The problem with the studios is they don't know their own history. They are run by "young whipper snappers" who know accounts and (think they) know plenty about what sells and zip about the history, importance and artistry of cinema. There's been some controversy over the past few days about the new Space Jam having the drooges from A Clockwork Orange pop up in the backround of a scene ; the backlash stems largely from hypocrisy as Pepe Le Pew is being dropped, because he "advocates rape culture" ...

the thing is, it just smacks of a studio (in this case, Warner Bros) parading every property they have to further push HBO Max and its content in an insidious way. They kowtow to the Pepe Le Pew pressure, because it (to them) seems like the obvious thing to do... but when you have people behind the scenes who don't know their own history, they end up opening up a can of worms like including Alex and his chums in a kids movie.

Sorry, I know this is about The Saint, but I had to get that one off my chest.

[Aclea]

In a similar vein, after leaving Warners I briefly had a consultancy gig for MGM/UA Europe literally telling them what their back-catalog titles were (they knew the major ones, but even things like the Mr Tibbs Sidney Poitier films were something of a mystery to them, and most people can name at least one out of three). Genuinely nice people, but they had an Empire magazine grounding in movies at best.

[indisposed]

Originally Posted by Aclea

In a similar vein, after leaving Warners I briefly had a consultancy gig for MGM/UA Europe literally telling them what their back-catalog titles were (they knew the major ones, but even things like the Mr Tibbs Sidney Poitier films were something of a mystery to them, and most people can name at least one out of three). Genuinely nice people, but they had an Empire magazine grounding in movies at best.

I didn't want to bring this up, Aclea, knowing your history with the gentleman, but it's why good ole Wild Bill Friedkin had such a difficult time getting Sorcerer on Blu-ray ; according to him, Universal and Paramount didn't know how much of the film they owned after all these years.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by indisposed

I didn't want to bring this up, Aclea, knowing your history with the gentleman, but it's why good ole Wild Bill Friedkin had such a difficult time getting Sorcerer on Blu-ray ; according to him, Universal and Paramount didn't know how much of the film they owned after all these years.

Which is complete and absolute bollocks - not least because he was married to the head of production at Paramount. When I was working on The Exorcist SE and restoration, Universal were trying to do a special signature edition laserdisc of Sorcerer, talking to some of the same people I was dealing with, and it was Friedkin who blocked the release - ostensibly because it was going to be letterboxed and he loathed the black bars on the image (this was at least partially true: we had to buy him a widescreen TV to persuade him to co-operate with a widescreen LD, DVD and VHS release of the vomit comet) but more likely because if you're making a 50-minute documentary about it there is no version of the history of that film where he comes off well (there's a reason Friedkin's is the only voice to talk about that film on the Blu). Much like the way James Cameron ****ed up the screen rights to Spider-Man for a decade, he created a situation where no-one would go near it. When his wife left Paramount, I'm guessing they and Universal just looked at the numbers and went "F***, we lost how much inflation adjusted on that film?" and figured it wasn't worth the trouble.

It's a lot like the history of the 'version you never saw' cut of The Exorcist that he re-edited solely to get a US reissue after the UK reissue was such a hit (US theatrical refused a reissue of the theatrical cut after a big home video SE release because there was nothing new to sell). Friedkin threatened to sue if they called it a director's cut in the US, so they called it 'The Version You've Never Seen.' When that did well he threatened to sue if it wasn't called the director's cut in Europe. And then he sued anyway claiming that because it was a new cut it wasn't covered by his original contract (even though he made it for Warner Bros and promoted it with the studio's press office), he and Blatty owned it entirely and were entitled to the entire $40m gross. And lost...

As with The Exorcist, Sorcerer was a case of his being married to one of the major players at a rival studio turning it into one of those dreaded 'talent relationship issues.' The problem wasn't that Universal and Paramount didn't know about the film - it was that they remembered all too well how he shat both their beds...

[indisposed]

What was it with Friedkin and Kubrick and their apathy towards widescreen home transfers? I watched a Siskel & Ebert clip the other day, where they talk about how Spielberg was trying to push Paramount to release The Last Crusade in widescreen on VHS ; they comprosmised by putting the 2:35:1 aspect ratio on the Laserdisc, but refused to budge with the VHS, because they argued the masses were more likely to watch the VHS and only the serious film buffs who buy laserdiscs would care about the proper aspect ratio. According to Ebert, Spielberg was frustrated by this... not sure why hardened perfectionists like Kubrick and Friedkin would have resisted other avenues of restoring their vision... maybe they were too knackered to really care by that point.