Ask questions to The Digital Bits team (Bill Hunt, Jeff Kleist et.al.)

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by BluDomain

I thought you weren't about the get into the screenshot vs moving film
debate.

Ive made my point and Im done with it. I guess I will ask you this:

If that screenshot is reasonably accurate would YOU want to purchase that?

[NoQuestion]

Jeff/Bill,

Sopranos Gift Set has also poped up today along with the ROME complete series. A thread was started about the Sopranos one and one of our members called amazon and a rep said that it is indeed the complete series but the price is only $55. Can either of you shed any light on this?

I preordered Sopranos just in case it truly is the complete series because then I will get it at the $55 price point. I can't see how they can sell it for that cheap, my guess is that it is just season 1. Thoughts?

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by merrick97

If that screenshot is reasonably accurate would YOU want to purchase that?

That depends. Is it a BD or a "giant, sofa-sized oil"?

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by BluDomain

At least one Reviewer didn't think Dark City was so bad. Even with
some DNR.
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/263/darkcity.html

It is bad. IMO.

And it's very clear that Ken has become more aware and critical of DNR since.

Just compare what he said of Dark City (reviewed July 30, 2008):

Nothing outright spoils the experience, but purists will probably be bothered by the studio’s post-processing exuberance. While New Line’s tinkering isn’t nearly as detrimental as message board doomsayers are suggesting, discerning viewers will still catch several instances of edge enhancement and notice a slight application of DNR (similar to New Line’s ‘Pan’s Labyrinth’ transfer). Skin textures are rendered a bit waxy from time to time, but are never flat or lifeless enough to cause any serious concern. Likewise, thin halos appear in high-contrast shots, but are negligible enough to escape all but the most astute videophiles.

with his comments on A History of Violence (reviewed February 11, 2009):

A History of Violence features a decent 1080p/VC-1 transfer that clearly bests the standard DVD, but still suffers from a few mindnumbing issues all its own. Once again, Warner has slathered one of their films with DNR in an effort to subdue grain and, once again, I cannot wrap my head around their reasoning. Why a 2005 production warrants such overzealous tampering is beyond me, but I suppose the Powers-That-Be are working overtime to ensure grain-haters won't have anything to complain about... except for DNR's glaring side effects. What side effects, you say? Facial textures are smudged (or eliminated, as is sometimes the case here), moving objects often exhibit slight motion smearing, and the clarity of the image's fine detail is reduced (or hindered altogether). It may not matter to someone with a 37" LCD TV, but it'll begin to bother anyone with a larger screen. As it stands, this disc boasts one of the more distracting applications of DNR I've encountered. It doesn't help that edge enhancement has been applied to the transfer as well (presumably to compensate for the softness brought on by the intrusive noise reduction). Actors, buildings, and powerlines set against Cronenberg's bleak skies are plagued by thick white halos that are distracting, to say the least.

or The Wedding Singer (reviewed April 15, 2009):

[T]he transfer has been slathered with an excessive application of digital noise reduction (DNR). While it may cover up erratic grain and minor print damage, it also produces waxy faces, spongy close-ups, and motion smearing. It's the sort of overwhelming issue no amount of edge enhancement or artificial sharpening could ever correct... yet it's clear the studio used these exact techniques in a futile effort to fudge the end result.

[BluDomain]

Originally Posted by merrick97

Ive made my point and Im done with it.

Promise.
Let's give Jeff and Bill some time.

If that screenshot is reasonably accurate would YOU want to purchase that?

I don't buy based on a computer screen shot under any circumstances.
I have never seen a Star Trek movie and don't indend to anytime
soon. I have pre-ordered ten copies for a library, a battered women's
shelter and boys' organizations I support. I don't think any of them
will notice. Other than Star Trek is so yesterday.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by micks_address

There does seem to be a few trends coming from some of the insiders though and this is in no way an insult to anyone in particular, but if a title is deemed to below par in what it could have achieved then the advice is to buy it as its still better than dvd..

Whoa Mick !, at least for me, that is not the “advice” I have given, go back and re-read my past two posts on the subject -

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=5311

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=5313

I believe that I indicated that in general most people that are big fans of any particular film will go out and purchase it, if the newest incarnation is any significant upgrade (meaning…picture or audio or extras or a combination thereof) compared to prior home media editions. I could care less if you do or don’t and I'm not advising you to do so or not to do so.

The only “advice” I gave is if you truly want to make a real change or difference with regards to some grievance you have that has already been adequately expressed by others (Torsten), is to proceed the way I indicated in the second post I linked above.

Whining, whether in the real world or online is seldomly productive and can actually be counterproductive…..people could drive Bill and Jeff away from their own Insider’s thread if they get bombarded enough about how bad or “shit looking” Star Trek looks on Blu-ray. I seldom read any other threads on this forum as many are laced with undeserved immature comments bashing some individual or organization that I am familiar with.

What was the second most whined about Blu-ray on the internet besides Patton? probably Gangs of New York, right? Did all the whining ultimately result in a reissue by Disney?

Nope.
If you want to make any real difference, like I said, contact Jeff and Bill via PM and it's generally best to include some precise specific observations, like time codes and such so that they can pass on the information to the appropriate people.

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Whoa Mick !, at least for me, that is not the “advice” I have given, go back and re-read my past two posts on the subject -

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=5311

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=5313

I believe that I indicated that in general most people that are big fans of any particular film will go out and purchase it, if the newest incarnation is any significant upgrade (meaning…picture or audio or extras or a combination thereof) compared to prior home media editions. I could care less if you do or don’t and I'm not advising you to do so or not to do so.

The only “advice” I gave is if you truly want to make a real change or difference with regards to some grievance you have that has already been adequately expressed by others (Torsten), is to proceed the way I indicated in the second post I linked above.

Whining, whether in the real world or online is seldomly productive and can actually be counterproductive…..people could drive Bill and Jeff away from their own Insider’s thread if they get bombarded enough about how bad or “shit looking” Star Trek looks on Blu-ray. I seldom read any other threads on this forum as many are laced with undeserved immature comments bashing some individual or organization that I am familiar with.

What was the second most whined about Blu-ray on the internet besides Patton? probably Gangs of New York, right? Did all the whining ultimately result in a reissue by Disney?

Nope.
If you want to make any real difference, like I said, contact Jeff and Bill via PM and it's generally best to include some precise specific observations, like time codes and such so that they can pass on the information to the appropriate people.

Thanks I hope that you feel my post WAS the appropriate way to do so.

I felt my post made its point and I will happily give Bill and Jeff the appropriate time to respond.

[BluDomain]

Originally Posted by merrick97

Thanks I hope that you feel my post WAS the appropriate way to do so.....

I think he said, "like I said, contact Jeff and Bill via PM and it's generally best to include some precise specific observations, like time codes and such so that they can pass on the information to the appropriate people."

[Bolty]

We're on track for a tuesday date for all the official reviews---just in time for it to be too late to cancel your orders!

I already cancelled mine---I'm pretty sure these will be affodable at a nice price in a short time.

If you have a great product you get it into the hands of experts ahead of time so they can tell everyone about it.

It's like when a movie studio won't preview a movie to critics right before it opens----is that a good sign?

No director's cuts via seamless branching
No deleted scenes (except already seen ones from two of the movies)
No full restoration except for one movie AND
No early reviews about the PQ & AQ = I can hold off on this.

[tvine2000]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

This statement doesn't make sense since Disney, Sony, MGM, and Fox all have put out discs that would be considered subpar. Not many, but they aren't perfect by a long shot. The great majority of the time Warner and Paramount have put out terrific discs.

Some of the hyperbole here is getting ridiculous.

peter i'm not saying they haven't put out subpar discs,i'm saying the track record is better then wb and lately paramount.it just seems like since the war ended studios as a whole have not been up to par.

[Torsten Kaiser TLE]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

(...) In consumer reality though, what all these movies come down to is the exact same purchasing decision people will make and do make with all their Blu-ray purchases. If you are a big fan of the movie, you generally buy the set if it is in any way an upgrade from the prior home media version you own – because you love the motion picture so much. For example, I’ve purchased Braveheart and Lawrence of Arabia in every home media incarnation possible over the years, because I like these motion pictures so much and I’m hooked on them. And I’ll do the same for the Blu-ray of Woodstock: 3 Days of Peace & Music, without paying any attention to what anyone says (good or bad). I imagine the true Trek fans will do the same – despite what any official or unofficial reviewers write……pro or con. (...)

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

(...)P.S. b.t.w. – don’t expect to get paid by the word for your posts.

Penton,

I just went over the text here - aside from the fact that I wrote "affected" beginning with an "e" a while back I wondered whether we could make a package deal at 50% off per word ?

you hit the nail right on its head. All of those, who love and even collect films are depending on a certain representation of the(se) film(s) on a given Home Entertainment format. And if you really like the picture, you always want to get a better (quality) version of "that" film. And you are always hoping that this time, it will be just right. But, that is also most likely why so many people are disappointed when that is not the case; and the higher the resolution, or, in other words, the closer to the original you get, the greater the dispappointment when the quality falls short of expectations. In many cases, those expectations are unfounded and never can be reached. However, there are a good many cases where (for budgetary reasons, or otherwise) the respective film elements or masters were not handled to the maximum of their potential, often falling way short. That fuels the suspicion among many, something not to be underestimated. If people spending more money on Blu-ray right now than on DVD find out that BDs are falling in Q level so that they are not significantly better than DVD, than they will end up, after a while, buying DVD. It is cheaper to buy - while production costs on the (High Definition) master level are far higher. I believe it would be a huge mistake by those who make the decisions to think otherwise.

Since the time of VHS tremendous changes have taken place. The level of quality now is in many cases far higher even compared to the good ol' 35mm print elements collectors got their hands on. High Definition is so precise in resolution already that it reveals technical deficiencies even layman can distinguish from the characteristics of analogue film stock. That has changed the ballgame. And people need to realize that. The good ol' video sweeteners and de-noisers don't do the job anymore. And as much as I disagree with a majority of the so-called "screenshot scientists", the simple fact that people who never ever set foot to or let alone been near a transfer/scan facility discuss the effects of the (inadequate use of) de-noising or de-graining tools is showing you how much the whole emphasis has shifted since 8mm and VHS in Home Entertainment.

You mentioned the desire to experience a film as it was meant to be, not always in technical terms. You are absolutely correct. But for some, like me, both worlds matter - professional as well as that of the film buff. In the field I am working in, the best that can happen to you is when both worlds "peacefully co-exist" - meaning that you can focus on all the finest details in a QC, including changes and whether these are accurate, and can still enjoy the film. I would not do this job that in my view carries a load of responsibility, especially when it comes to preservation / restoration but also in mastering if I could not do both. However, I can understand those who (want to) spend their money hoping for an accurate representation of a film they cherish only to find out that the work done in the digital realm was "just another job". Of course, one should (be able to) focus on the storyline, etc. However, I have experienced time and again - the more accurate the quality of the film in technical terms, the more interested the viewer becomes. That does not mean that he or she suddenly will like a film that is trash, but that they enjoy the picture they were even mildly interested in the more. That is why I think we in this field walk a very fine line. Some customers ask for lower prices, pointing to India and other places as low cost competition, even to the use of "cheap" de-graining and de-noising tools in the cleanup, where these tools do not belong. But, in my view, the level of quality, knowledge, talent, supervision, QC and project coordination has a certain price and is very well worth it. As some unfortunate examples have shown, not doing so can only lead to the suspicion of the customer that he/she has been taken advantage of. The worst case scenario is that everything has to be done anew again after merely a few years. That is a waste of energy, resources, money. Or is there something to the suspicion that you can sell something again down the line, making more money ? That, in my view, would be Russian Roulette, HE style. At the very least it (the sentences before) should give all of us something to think about, be it in technical, execs offices or distribution.

Something personal: You mentioned LOA. Good example. Same here. The first version I bought of the film was the restoration from RAH on a British VHS, in its original AR, back in 1990 or 1991 at a London airport shop. From then on, I collected all versions that came out from RCA, Criterion and COL/TS on Laserdisc, on DVD and also the High Definition (1035 analogue, those were the days) HiVision MUSE LD; always looking for "the best one". Yet, while the Superbit looked the best, it naturally did not even come close to what this epic holds on its elements. That is why I personally do very much look forward to the work that Grover's team is finishing now. This film is an exellent example of how far we have come in HE since the ol' days of Normal and Super8mm, 16mm, VHS, LD and DVD. More than 30 years after Home Entertainment began, we can really appeciate what (a) film holds in content and in quality. Or do we ?

[tvine2000]

torsten....man you hit a homerun,an upper deck shot.i'm just a guy who loves films,and want those films as close as possible to film.blu-ray gives me that look when done right.i'm no x-pert like you and others.a good looking bd film does help me get more into the story.my issue is the studios are falling short in the name of making money.you would think they would take pride in a great looking blu-ray,but sad to say making money comes first.my point is in the long run it hurts the format,and the money they wanted to make ....they don't.i thought you sometimes have to spend money to make money,i guess those days are over.all i can hope is they will wake up at some point.

[BluDomain]

Originally Posted by tvine2000

torsten....man you hit a homerun,an upper deck shot.i'm just a guy who loves films,and want those films as close as possible to film.blu-ray gives me that look when done right.i'm no x-pert like you and others.a good looking bd film does help me get more into the story.my issue is the studios are falling short in the name of making money.you would think they would take pride in a great looking blu-ray,but sad to say making money comes first.my point is in the long run it hurts the format,and the money they wanted to make ....they don't.i thought you sometimes have to spend money to make money,i guess those days are over.all i can hope is they will wake up at some point.

Are you a fan of reverie style a la James Joyce? At least I got
course credit for reading Joyce.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

If you want to make any real difference, like I said, contact Jeff and Bill via PM and it's generally best to include some precise specific observations, like time codes and such so that they can pass on the information to the appropriate people.

Penton,

Would writing a polite letter and mailing it (not e-mail) make any sort of difference?

[JimSD]

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

However, I have experienced time and again - the more accurate the quality of the film in technical terms, the more interested the viewer becomes.

I have experienced that with the James Bond films. Each iteration (assuming they are more accurate) from SE DVDs to UE DVDs and now to Blu-ray has made those films come more alive.

[Jeff Kleist]

No one has the discs yet. They are not "in-stock" at the Paramount warehouse as of 10 minutes ago when I asked

There's nothing new to tell until we see them, and all i can say is that you can rest assured that we'll call it like we see it when we actually see it.

Sopranos is almost certainly season 1

[mrpink134]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

No one has the discs yet. They are not "in-stock" at the Paramount warehouse as of 10 minutes ago when I asked

There's nothing new to tell until we see them, and all i can say is that you can rest assured that we'll call it like we see it when we actually see it.

Sopranos is almost certainly season 1

First Jeff I would like to say thanks for all the information you and Bill give us. Second, isn't it scary that no one has the star trek discs yet for reviews and they come out in 4 days?

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by mrpink134

First Jeff I would like to say thanks for all the information you and Bill give us. Second, isn't it scary that no one has the star trek discs yet for reviews and they come out in 4 days?

Apparently some people already do. Go the "screenshot scientists" forum and there are people who claim to have it.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by mrpink134

First Jeff I would like to say thanks for all the information you and Bill give us. Second, isn't it scary that no one has the star trek discs yet for reviews and they come out in 4 days?

I've seen some comments around the Web today that some reviewers have received them. I don't know if this means that Paramount sent out a batch that the person Jeff spoke with wasn't aware of or, perhaps more likely, that the comments I saw elsewhere were a little less verified/a little more wishful.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by merrick97

Apparently some people already do. Go the "screenshot scientists" forum and there are people who claim to have it.

There's mention (from the same source) at DVD Talk and HDD, as well.