The Fifth Element 4K UHD (1997) (20th Anniversary Edition)

[evoof]

Originally Posted by David M

The audio for the StudioCanal disc was encoded in 2020 (less than 4 months ago, actually) and used the latest version of the Dolby Atmos encoder, which uses some kind of audibly lossless noise-shaping process to achieve better compression efficiency (the data rate savings are apparently in the region of 30-40%). I'd be curious to hear both versions compared side by side, but you're making a mistake if you look at the audio bitrate alone.

Full disclosure, I encoded it.

You are a busy man so I hate to bother you with questions but there is no other way to find out than by asking directly. You mentioned that the newer versions of the Dolby Atmos encoder (Dolby Media Producer Suite?) has a more efficient algorithm for lossless TrueHD Atmos encoding, do these new features in any way apply to the old lossy Dolby Digital 5.1?

I have a relatively old receiver that only supports DTS and AC-3 and so I only listen to the lossy tracks on my Blu-rays. I wonder if the Dolby Digital codec has become better or more efficient compared to say 10 years ago?

[fizban11]

Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital

Hmmm...

I also have the StudioCanal (Dolby Vision) version. After backing-up the disc into the (transport) .m2ts container, and de-muxing all the streams, MediaInfo reports the following about the audio stream: -

As you can see, Atmos is indeed present.

Cheers

Thanks for posting. What version of MediaINFO are you using? I'm using 20.08 for Windows 10 64-bit. MediaINFO that I posted above for the SC Version is all I show for the file...no ATMOS at all and no embedded objects, but the US Version shows something similar to yours. Although, my movie isn't 13 hours and 59 minutes long like yours shows. I typically just rip straight mkv's with MakeMKV with no added compression. My Marantz AV8802A does show ATMOS while playing, but as a base 5.1, which is what PLEX also shows. Not the same 7.1 base that shows for the US Version 20th Anniversary disc.

I prefer the Dolby Vision SC Version to the HDR10 US 20th Anniversary version, but I am a bit dismayed at the difference in audio between the two.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally Posted by fizban11

Thanks for posting. What version of MediaINFO are you using? I'm using 20.08 for Windows 10 64-bit.

I'm using MediaInfo v20.09...

Originally Posted by fizban11

... Although, my movie isn't 13 hours and 59 minutes long like yours shows.

Elementary streams often don't have accurate timing information...

I've just checked my .m2ts file back-up and MediaInfo reports the following about the audio stream: -

Audio #1
ID                                       : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : AC-3 MLP FBA 16-ch
Format/Info                              : Audio Coding 3 + Meridian Lossless Packing FBA with 16-channel presentation
Commercial name                          : Dolby TrueHD with Dolby Atmos
Muxing mode                              : Stream extension
Codec ID                                 : 131
Duration                                 : 2 h 6 min
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 640 kb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 6 342 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 8 channels
Channel layout                           : L R C LFE Ls Rs Lb Rb
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 31.250 FPS (1536 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 578 MiB (1%)
Service kind                             : Complete Main
Number of dynamic objects                : 11
Bed channel count                        : 1 channel
Bed channel configuration                : LFE

Perhaps you should have another go at backing-up your 4K UHD disc...

[fizban11]

Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital

I'm using MediaInfo v20.09...

Elementary streams often don't have accurate timing information...

Perhaps you should have another go at backing-up your 4K UHD disc...

I gotta admit, I updated to MediaInfo 20.08 on 25 Sept, so I really figured that had to be the problem. I just did a clean install for 20.09 (uninstalled prior version, then installed 20.09) and it still shows the same information. I made fresh backups of each disc yesterday (Sunday) with MakeMKV 1.15.3. So, at this point, I wonder if MakeMKV is not encoding correctly for this disc due to the new ATMOS encoding used?

I attached a screen shot below.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally Posted by fizban11

...I made fresh backups of each disc yesterday (Sunday) with MakeMKV 1.15.3. So, at this point, I wonder if MakeMKV is not encoding correctly for this disc due to the new ATMOS encoding used...

Personally I use MakeMKV's (v1.15.3) 'backup' option along with open-source builds of TSmuxerGUI to create my 'movie only' disc back-ups.

But I use an OPPO UDP-203 as a playback device...

That being said, a few days ago I tested MakeMKV v1.15.3 to back-up Black Panther directly into the .mkv container. And MediaInfo 20.09 detects the Atmos audio track: -

General
Unique ID                                : 319368145250623947548439013838782522969 (0xF0441142941F6EE05B77630F230CE659)
Complete name                            : E:\zz Dolby Vision Mux Tests\Black Panther [2018] 134mins (1-layer DV created using MakeMKV v1.15.3).mkv
Format                                   : Matroska
Format version                           : Version 2
File size                                : 50.6 GiB
Duration                                 : 2 h 14 min
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 53.8 Mb/s
Movie name                               : MARVEL'S BLACK PANTHER
Encoded date                             : UTC 2020-10-14 21:03:06
Writing application                      : MakeMKV v1.15.3 win(x64-release)
Writing library                          : libmakemkv v1.15.3 (1.3.10/1.5.2) win(x64-release)

Video
ID                                       : 1
ID in the original source medium         : 4113 (0x1011)
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main 10@L5.1@High
HDR format                               : Dolby Vision, Version 1.0, dvhe.07.06, BL+EL+RPU, Blu-ray compatible / SMPTE ST 2086, HDR10 compatible
Codec ID                                 : V_MPEGH/ISO/HEVC
Duration                                 : 2 h 14 min
Bit rate                                 : 47.7 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0 (Type 2)
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.240
Stream size                              : 44.9 GiB (89%)
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics                 : PQ
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries        : Display P3
Mastering display luminance              : min: 0.0001 cd/m2, max: 1000 cd/m2
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray

Audio #1
ID                                       : 2
ID in the original source medium         : 4352 (0x1100)
Format                                   : MLP FBA 16-ch
Format/Info                              : Meridian Lossless Packing FBA with 16-channel presentation
Commercial name                          : Dolby TrueHD with Dolby Atmos
Codec ID                                 : A_TRUEHD
Duration                                 : 2 h 14 min
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 4 327 kb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 7 134 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 8 channels
Channel layout                           : L R C LFE Ls Rs Lb Rb
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 1 200.000 FPS (40 SPF)
Bit depth                                : 24 bits
Compression mode                         : Lossless
Stream size                              : 4.07 GiB (8%)
Title                                    : Surround 7.1
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : No
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray
Number of dynamic objects                : 13
Bed channel count                        : 1 channel
Bed channel configuration                : LFE

Audio #2
ID                                       : 3
ID in the original source medium         : 4352 (0x1100)
Format                                   : AC-3
Format/Info                              : Audio Coding 3
Commercial name                          : Dolby Digital
Codec ID                                 : A_AC3
Duration                                 : 2 h 14 min
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 640 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 6 channels
Channel layout                           : L R C LFE Ls Rs
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 31.250 FPS (1536 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 616 MiB (1%)
Title                                    : Surround 5.1
Language                                 : English
Service kind                             : Complete Main
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray

Audio #3
ID                                       : 4
Format                                   : E-AC-3
Format/Info                              : Enhanced AC-3
Commercial name                          : Dolby Digital Plus
Format profile                           : Blu-ray Disc
Codec ID                                 : A_EAC3
Duration                                 : 2 h 14 min
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 024 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 8 channels
Channel layout                           : L R C LFE Ls Rs Lb Rb
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 31.250 FPS (1536 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 986 MiB (2%)
Title                                    : Surround 7.1
Language                                 : English
Service kind                             : Complete Main
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No

Text #1
ID                                       : 5
ID in the original source medium         : 4768 (0x12A0)
Format                                   : PGS
Codec ID                                 : S_HDMV/PGS
Codec ID/Info                            : Picture based subtitle format used on BDs/HD-DVDs
Duration                                 : 2 h 14 min
Bit rate                                 : 32.4 kb/s
Count of elements                        : 3670
Stream size                              : 31.1 MiB (0%)
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray

Text #2
ID                                       : 7
ID in the original source medium         : 4769 (0x12A1)
Format                                   : PGS
Codec ID                                 : S_HDMV/PGS
Codec ID/Info                            : Picture based subtitle format used on BDs/HD-DVDs
Duration                                 : 2 h 14 min
Bit rate                                 : 26.8 kb/s
Count of elements                        : 2816
Stream size                              : 25.7 MiB (0%)
Language                                 : German
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray

Menu
00:00:00.000                             : en:Chapter 01
00:06:56.290                             : en:Chapter 02
00:12:02.596                             : en:Chapter 03
00:19:12.234                             : en:Chapter 04
00:28:32.877                             : en:Chapter 05
00:33:11.698                             : en:Chapter 06
00:40:57.163                             : en:Chapter 07
00:48:33.702                             : en:Chapter 08
00:53:45.805                             : en:Chapter 09
01:01:57.338                             : en:Chapter 10
01:08:33.025                             : en:Chapter 11
01:16:46.518                             : en:Chapter 12
01:22:24.022                             : en:Chapter 13
01:31:21.350                             : en:Chapter 14
01:41:15.277                             : en:Chapter 15
01:50:56.107                             : en:Chapter 16
01:59:16.566                             : en:Chapter 17
02:02:43.898                             : en:Chapter 18

Cheers

[fizban11]

Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital

Personally I use MakeMKV's (v1.15.3) 'backup' option along with open-source builds of TSmuxerGUI to create my 'movie only' disc back-ups.

But I use an OPPO UDP-203 as a playback device...

That being said, a few days ago I tested MakeMKV v1.15.3 to back-up Black Panther directly into the .mkv container. And MediaInfo 20.09 detects the Atmos audio track: -

Cheers

I get the same info as you do for Black Panther....though I wish I knew how to put the text in a box that scrolls. (I think I got it this time.) It's also interesting that we used the same tool and yet the file is slightly different (mine is a little larger) even though you included all the additional audio tracks.

General
Unique ID                                : 280312855473862034581038272361790315107 (0xD2E24ACEA08D83B425C6323D9E6E1A63)
Complete name                            : V:\4K UHD Versions\Black Panther (2018) - 4K UHD Dolby ATMOS Dolby Vision.mkv
Format                                   : Matroska
Format version                           : Version 2
File size                                : 51.9 GiB
Duration                                 : 2 h 14 min
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 55.2 Mb/s
Movie name                               : MARVEL'S BLACK PANTHER
Encoded date                             : UTC 2020-10-07 17:43:58
Writing application                      : MakeMKV v1.15.3 win(x64-release)
Writing library                          : libmakemkv v1.15.3 (1.3.10/1.5.2) win(x64-release)

Video
ID                                       : 1
ID in the original source medium         : 4113 (0x1011)
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main 10@L5.1@High
HDR format                               : Dolby Vision, Version 1.0, dvhe.07.06, BL+EL+RPU, Blu-ray compatible / SMPTE ST 2086, HDR10 compatible
Codec ID                                 : V_MPEGH/ISO/HEVC
Duration                                 : 2 h 14 min
Bit rate                                 : 47.7 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0 (Type 2)
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.240
Stream size                              : 44.9 GiB (86%)
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics                 : PQ
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries        : Display P3
Mastering display luminance              : min: 0.0001 cd/m2, max: 1000 cd/m2
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray

Audio #1
ID                                       : 2
ID in the original source medium         : 4352 (0x1100)
Format                                   : MLP FBA 16-ch
Format/Info                              : Meridian Lossless Packing FBA with 16-channel presentation
Commercial name                          : Dolby TrueHD with Dolby Atmos
Codec ID                                 : A_TRUEHD
Duration                                 : 2 h 14 min
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 4 327 kb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 7 134 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 8 channels
Channel layout                           : L R C LFE Ls Rs Lb Rb
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 1 200.000 FPS (40 SPF)
Bit depth                                : 24 bits
Compression mode                         : Lossless
Stream size                              : 4.07 GiB (8%)
Title                                    : Surround 7.1
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : No
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray
Number of dynamic objects                : 13
Bed channel count                        : 1 channel
Bed channel configuration                : LFE

Text #1
ID                                       : 8
ID in the original source medium         : 4768 (0x12A0)
Format                                   : PGS
Codec ID                                 : S_HDMV/PGS
Codec ID/Info                            : Picture based subtitle format used on BDs/HD-DVDs
Duration                                 : 2 h 14 min
Bit rate                                 : 32.4 kb/s
Count of elements                        : 3670
Stream size                              : 31.0 MiB (0%)
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : No
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray

Text #2
ID                                       : 9
ID in the original source medium         : 4775 (0x12A7)
Format                                   : PGS
Codec ID                                 : S_HDMV/PGS
Codec ID/Info                            : Picture based subtitle format used on BDs/HD-DVDs
Duration                                 : 2 h 10 min
Bit rate                                 : 853 b/s
Count of elements                        : 136
Stream size                              : 816 KiB (0%)
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray

Menu
00:00:00.000                             : en:Chapter 01
00:06:56.290                             : en:Chapter 02
00:12:02.221                             : en:Chapter 03
00:19:12.234                             : en:Chapter 04
00:28:32.877                             : en:Chapter 05
00:33:11.698                             : en:Chapter 06
00:40:57.163                             : en:Chapter 07
00:48:33.702                             : en:Chapter 08
00:53:45.805                             : en:Chapter 09
01:01:57.338                             : en:Chapter 10
01:08:33.025                             : en:Chapter 11
01:16:46.184                             : en:Chapter 12
01:22:24.022                             : en:Chapter 13
01:31:21.350                             : en:Chapter 14
01:41:15.277                             : en:Chapter 15
01:50:55.899                             : en:Chapter 16
01:59:16.566                             : en:Chapter 17
02:02:43.898                             : en:Chapter 18

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi @fizban11,

Last night I used MakeMKV v1.15.3 to back-up the Fifth Element 4K UHD disc to an .mkv file. And I can confirm your observation that it's not detecting the movies Atmos audio track correctly.

The software displays the following contradictory information in its UI: -




Cheers

[djc5166]

Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital

Hi @fizban11,

Last night I used MakeMKV v1.15.3 to back-up the Fifth Element 4K UHD disc to an .mkv file. And I can confirm your observation that it's not detecting the movies Atmos audio track correctly.
...

I think there is something wrong with the audio track for the studio logos. On my disc if you rip (MMKV v1.15.3) the other playlist then the Atmos track comes out correctly. It is only 20s shorter than the main playlist, 20s of studio logos removed.

[Bn43]

Originally Posted by djc5166

I think there is something wrong with the audio track for the studio logos. On my disc if you rip (MMKV v1.15.3) the other playlist then the Atmos track comes out correctly. It is only 20s shorter than the main playlist, 20s of studio logos removed.

Yeah, I found it so weird that the into logos had a different audio track. Never seen that with any of my other rips. Delete the longer file.

[Geoff D]

IIRC the StudioCanal version omits the Sony logo and has the Gaumont one instead, doesn't it? So if the Atmos track was conformed to the 'Sony' logo cut of the movie then it makes sense it had to be fiddled with to accommodate the other logo.

[djc5166]

Originally Posted by Bn43

Yeah, I found it so weird that the into logos had a different audio track. Never seen that with any of my other rips. Delete the longer file.

I don't see any other differences in the playlist. You can take the chapters from the main playlist and offset them by -20s add them to the shorter one, otherwise I think they are identical.

[Bn43]

Originally Posted by djc5166

I don't see any other differences in the playlist. You can take the chapters from the main playlist and offset them by -20s add them to the shorter one, otherwise I think they are identical.

Yes, I watched the twenty second shorter file of the Studio Canal all the way through a week ago. It plays perfectly. You're right.

[Jay H.]

Rest in peace, Mr. President:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...021338362.html

[Leonidas King]

Waited too long to get this and it’s so expensive now

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally Posted by Leonidas King

Waited too long to get this and it’s so expensive now

Where have you been looking? The Studio Canal version with Dolby Vision is around £20.00 in the UK...

[JimDiGriz]

Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital

Where have you been looking? The Studio Canal version with Dolby Vision is around £20.00 in the UK...

Its in a couple of 2 for £30 offers too.

I paid £14 for mine.

[KINGDANGER]

I really like this gentlemen's reviews, especially his comparisons with his personal 35mm prints. I'm not sure if his channel is well known around here, but I may have discovered it via this site anyway. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVSdxtA77Xk

[reanimator]

Originally Posted by KINGDANGER

I really like this gentlemen's reviews, especially his comparisons with his personal 35mm prints. I'm not sure if his channel is well known around here, but I may have discovered it via this site anyway. Enjoy.

I first stumbled across one of his reviews a few months ago and have been watching ever since. I love his very-measured delivery, which masks a joyful enthusiasm for cinema.

[Mierzwiak]

Originally Posted by KINGDANGER

I really like this gentlemen's reviews, especially his comparisons with his personal 35mm prints. I'm not sure if his channel is well known around here, but I may have discovered it via this site anyway. Enjoy.

I discovered his channel about 2 months ago, very enjoyable Although I don't think I could watch movies having reflections of the screen on both sides of it

[Geoff D]

Not a fan, personally. His love for film is obvious but it clouds everything he does, i.e. when it comes to reviewing the actual disc he’s supposed to be reviewing he’ll talk for like a minute then go right back to how awesome film is and then mention some other random movie shot using the same process that looks miles better (to him). In his “review” of 2001's UHD he literally spends more time talking about the Murder on the Orient Express UHD than he does the 2001 UHD, the remarks on the latter consist of little more than “it looks like a decent 35mm reduction print” without mentioning any visual characteristics of the UHD transfer itself. He also lauded the dreadfully DNR'ed UK Blu of Zulu in the Spartacus UHD “review” which is enough to set alarum bells ringing, I don’t care who you are.

So yes, film is his thing and that’s great if it was a review dedicated solely to celluloid presentation (dvdmike must love his channel), but while he’s got far more knowledge than the average bear he’s as useful as a concrete parachute when it comes to actual disc reviews. IMO.

PS

Yes, the Fifth Element one above ^ is an actual UHD vs 35mm review so the above rant might seem like I’m complaining about water being wet, if he posited all his stuff like that then I wouldn’t have an issue, I’d have known to steer clear.