Quick way to lose credibility

[GTP]

Originally Posted by Uxi

I agree the original posters point, though I disagree with his ultimate stance.

I like the old saying that one should be either warm or cold, or be spit out.

PQ has been a wash while Blu-ray has delivered a better audio experience by virtue of it's superior record of lossless releases. That said, I'm not going to be deprived of certain movies so do buy both right now, though it's been many months since I've bought an HDDVD (have had a few given as gifts), but ultimately, one either believes BDA is right Blu-ray has the longetivity to not force later titles out of the spec, as DVD did, or they believe HDDVD is good enough before downloads take over. There isn't much groundroom for inbetween there.

According to pro reviewers, BD has been scoring the higher overall picture quality ratings...so no its not a wash at this point.
BD is slightly better overall in picture quality, lightyears ahead in HD audio and also still ahead on player functionality as they have been from the beggining.

With the better P/Q scores coming after a larger percentage of BD-50's were released with the higher bit rates/bandwidth.
Coincidence, ? I think not.

[BTBuck1]

Originally Posted by GTP

According to pro reviewers, BD has been scoring the higher overall picture quality ratings...so no its not a wash at this point.
BD is slightly better overall in picture quality, lightyears ahead in HD audio and also still ahead on player functionality as they have been from the beggining.

Exactly, nobody knew what good was until BD raised the bar a few months back. Sure HDDVD came out of the gate strong, but if you compare those early HDDVD titles with the stuff thats comming out now, you will re-evaluate your position on even those titles. Sure, some stuff looks great, but BD captures the look these movies where intented to be..."Film-like" The pirates movies have been such a thorn in the side of HDDVD boys, they are trying to find anything wrong with them now: Framing my arse!

[Mr.Neutral]

Originally Posted by BTBuck1

Super duper hypothetically I suppose if and a really big IF Hddvd somehow managed to squeeze past Blu-ray and DVD then in the year 18 pudding (if HDDVD isn't beaten out by something else) It could be marginally acceptable that IF Blu-ray is still in existence, they could release...on HD-DVD,,,maybe.

That's all I was saying. And I think you brought up that point anyway.

So, this pretty much sums up a waste of like 3 pages of replies from me.
You have a 720p set, and you can't see the difference. Ok,first off there is more to resolution than lines. Contrast ratio, brightness, black levels, sharpness, Hue etc. all play an intricate part...as well as display type.

I can speak from experience here, since I owned two 720p sets that are now replaced by 1080p sets in the last year since owning the two HD formats.

YES THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 720p and 1080p but usually in a 1080p set all the aforementioned things are improved as well, so that could be a contributing factor.
now 1080i vs. 1080p, not so much...but still noticeable (to me) in the way of scaling artifacts introduced such as Jaggies, and Moire'.

I think I stated earlier that I was viewing on 720P. Do you assume most have 1080P? I'd bet the majority of HD TV owners (not necessarily the majority here though) are either 720P or 1080i.

"Duh.. its because the difference can't be seen on a 720P image"


IB4tL

Thanks! I don't know why noone has every been able to say this here in other threads I've been in or on other sites.

Anyway, as I've stated (and I'll state it again to be clear), I don't care who wins but I do lean slightly more towards blu-ray. Why don't I care who wins? Because I just want to watch movies in HD. That's why I got HD DVD at first, because I could do it cheaply. Then I got blu-ray when I could get in at the price I wanted. (I like gaming too, so being able to get a PS3 didn't hurt either )

And for the record, I do think blu-ray will end up winning. I just think its going to take awhile still before Universal will switch sides. I don't see them doing it before 08 and I think its possible depending on what the holidays bring that they could wait until late 08.

[theknub]

Originally Posted by Mr.Neutral

Sure, it IS possible to be neutral. If I watch the red sox and yankees, I am definetely not neutral. If I was to watch Tamba Bay and Toronto, I can be neutral, I don't care who wins.

wouldn't that be more like agnostic?

The only thing that keeps me on the edge (and I said, I probably lean just a touch towards blu) is that there is that I still don't see some of the blu-ray advantages as tangible. Space obviously is for extras and better audio. But I just don't know if the video difference will actually be visible.

wait. isn't the extra space for the main feature too? doesn't blu-ray provide a higher bandwidth? if yes to both, this means that blu-ray can kick out more data which means better overall picture. given that this is true, many people should be able to see a difference. of course, the difference is affected by many things such as seating distance, screen size, resolution and a host of other things. just because you don't see it doesn't mean that hundreds of others don't.

It sure isn't to me. I also don't have a lossless receiver and am not sure I've ever heard it or could tell the difference. What I have now sounds great. Maybe I just need to hear it. So that's why I am neutral - I need to see/hear it for myself to really see the benefit.

do you notice a difference between the theater and home? there is a difference for most people. how about dvd's and hd-dvd? you certainly should. blu-ray and dvd? it should be apparent immediately. if you can't hear it, what is your current rig (speakers, t.v., receiver) and what are your connections (hdmi, coaxial, rca, optical, analog outs)? i'm sure we can certainly give you pointers for a better set up.

The only benefits either format has for me right now is the exclusive movies. Dual format titles I'll buy on the cheaper of the two. I do share the sentiment of many others and wish there was no war, but I also want to watch whatever I can in HD.

wait, so the movies themselves are the only benefit? not the hi-def picture or advanced audio (i know you can't tell on the audio). if this is the case get a good upconverting players and buy dvd's. but als, i'm sure this isn't what you mean. as for the cheaper discs, they have been shown time and again to be cheaper on blu. so what do u mean the only benefit is the exclusive movies? because really, that doesn't make much sense.

[Mr.Neutral]

Originally Posted by theknub

wouldn't that be more like agnostic?

Yeah, I guess so. Maybe I should be Mr. Agnostic?

wait. isn't the extra space for the main feature too? doesn't blu-ray provide a higher bandwidth? if yes to both, this means that blu-ray can kick out more data which means better overall picture. given that this is true, many people should be able to see a difference. of course, the difference is affected by many things such as seating distance, screen size, resolution and a host of other things. just because you don't see it doesn't mean that hundreds of others don't.

I never disagreed with this - I was simply saying in my opinion and also questioning what it would take for the average. I've seen a lot of people say think ahead 5 years..etc. Well I think people also need to think ahead to the average consumer. I love HD. If I can't see the difference, how is the average consumer? Thanks to BTBuck I now know I can't see it because it seems 1080P really is needed to see the difference.

do you notice a difference between the theater and home? there is a difference for most people. how about dvd's and hd-dvd? you certainly should. blu-ray and dvd? it should be apparent immediately. if you can't hear it, what is your current rig (speakers, t.v., receiver) and what are your connections (hdmi, coaxial, rca, optical, analog outs)? i'm sure we can certainly give you pointers for a better set up.

Yes. My home setup looks better than the last theater I was in. Is that what I should see? I was expecting it to be better in the theater. I think it was just the theater though.

Hmm.. I should notice a difference in sound between DVD and HD DVD/Blu-ray? I wasn't aware of that. Even without a receiver that supports the new codecs? Odd thing is I have seen PCM displayed on my receiver, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't support lossless. I have the Sony STR-DE895. I admit I am lost when it comes to all the audio codecs and audio modes available.

I think my speakers are decent - Certainly not top of the line, but I think decent. All cambridge soundworks and I think close to $100 per speaker or so. Maybe more. I think my center channel was over $200.

wait, so the movies themselves are the only benefit? not the hi-def picture or advanced audio (i know you can't tell on the audio). if this is the case get a good upconverting players and buy dvd's. but als, i'm sure this isn't what you mean. as for the cheaper discs, they have been shown time and again to be cheaper on blu. so what do u mean the only benefit is the exclusive movies? because really, that doesn't make much sense.

High def is a benefit, but both formats are high def. I've just been basing my opinions based on what I see. Something I think most consumers would do.

[jorg]

Originally Posted by Mr.Neutral

No matter what its about, there are a few things I've noticed people write that (for me) always causes their statements to be a little less credible. If you want to make a point, I suggest you keep this in mind.

Anytime I see the following, its clear the poster has an agenda and/or bias and you can't take what they say at face value.

HD DUD
HD DEAD
Blo-ray
M$
$ony

There's others, but I think you get it. Think about it - When you see someone use blo-ray here, they'd instantly lose all credibility and be called a troll, right? So why do it with these others? You still lose that same credibility.

Just my 2 cents.. take it or leave it..

i read the title of thread and new the answer rite away to suport hd dvd lmao

[BTBuck1]

Originally Posted by Mr.Neutral

I have the Sony STR-DE895. I admit I am lost when it comes to all the audio codecs and audio modes available.

this would be the first thing I replaced. I am not going to come in here and be a sony basher for receivers, but the model you have has known issues with the 1.5mbps DTS tracks on BD's/HDDVD's. I am suprised you haven't noticed the "Cutting out" yet. I would reccomend the Onkyo 605, it has HDMI in/out and is a future proof receiver. You still won't get lossless via the 360, but you would then be able to enjoy LPCM 5.1 and TrueHD by your ps3 through the HDMI connection. You can find it usually at www.6ave.com for about $399 shipped.

Lossless audio can not pass through Optical/Digi coax, it doesn't support the bandwidth of multichannel lossless audio.

[Mr.Neutral]

Originally Posted by jorg

i read the title of thread and new the answer rite away to suport hd dvd lmao

I'm not sure I'm following you. My comments have nothing to do with supporting HD DVD.

On the contrary. I think if people here want to convince HD DVD owners to get into blu-ray, they need to not use these words as it changes the tone of the conversation.

[Mr.Neutral]

Originally Posted by BTBuck1

this would be the first thing I replaced. I am not going to come in here and be a sony basher for receivers, but the model you have has known issues with the 1.5mbps DTS tracks on BD's/HDDVD's. I am suprised you haven't noticed the "Cutting out" yet. I would reccomend the Onkyo 605, it has HDMI in/out and is a future proof receiver. You still won't get lossless via the 360, but you would then be able to enjoy LPCM 5.1 and TrueHD by your ps3 through the HDMI connection. You can find it usually at www.6ave.com for about $399 shipped.

Lossless audio can not pass through Optical/Digi coax, it doesn't support the bandwidth of multichannel lossless audio.

Thanks for the advice. I'll check it out. Price was right when I bought the Sony and it was a number of years ago. I haven't had problems with audio cutting out, I guess I'm lucky there.

[theknub]

Originally Posted by Mr.Neutral

Yeah, I guess so. Maybe I should be Mr. Agnostic?

possibly . it's just a peave of mine when people say neutral, they really aren't and are misconstruing the word.

I never disagreed with this - I was simply saying in my opinion and also questioning what it would take for the average. I've seen a lot of people say think ahead 5 years..etc. Well I think people also need to think ahead to the average consumer. I love HD. If I can't see the difference, how is the average consumer? Thanks to BTBuck I now know I can't see it because it seems 1080P really is needed to see the difference.

i just read after i posted that you are viewing on a 720p television. it will make a world of difference to move to a 1080i or 1080p set. 720p simply is not enough to notice a difference on 1080p source material. in fact, it will prob look worse due to having to convert the image resolution.

Yes. My home setup looks better than the last theater I was in. Is that what I should see? I was expecting it to be better in the theater. I think it was just the theater though.

depending on resolution, screen size, and viewing distance, it most likely look comparable (or at least what we think is comparable, in ten years we may say different) to a top of the line digital projection theater.

Hmm.. I should notice a difference in sound between DVD and HD DVD/Blu-ray? I wasn't aware of that. Even without a receiver that supports the new codecs? Odd thing is I have seen PCM displayed on my receiver, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't support lossless. I have the Sony STR-DE895. I admit I am lost when it comes to all the audio codecs and audio modes available.

I think my speakers are decent - Certainly not top of the line, but I think decent. All cambridge soundworks and I think close to $100 per speaker or so. Maybe more. I think my center channel was over $200.

you should be able to notice a huge difference between dvd and a hi-def format. however, hd-dvd has many titlse in lossless codecs because the disc doesn't have enough space and/or bandwidth for the lossless audio. what really matters is how your players are connected. if using optical or coaxial, you will not be able to experience the lossless tracks as you said. however, you can experience higher bitrate encodes of the core audio track. to do this, make sure your player is set to bitstream and select a non pcm audio track. if you select pcm, it will only play in 2 channel and your receiver will have to be setup to matrix the audio. anyway, need any more help, just ask.

High def is a benefit, but both formats are high def. I've just been basing my opinions based on what I see. Something I think most consumers would do.

both are hi-def, but one is more hi-def than the other. if you have the opportunity, go to a hi end audio shop and they should be able to exhibit 1080p material in full lossless audio.

[Mr.Neutral]

Originally Posted by theknub

if you have the opportunity, go to a hi end audio shop and they should be able to exhibit 1080p material in full lossless audio.

Yeah, but then I might want something better at home And I don't think my wife would approve

Thanks for the info.

[theknub]

Originally Posted by Mr.Neutral

Yeah, but then I might want something better at home And I don't think my wife would approve

Thanks for the info.

wife, smife... tell her that the t.v. and receiver went bad (use sabotage if necessary)

[Mr.Neutral]

Originally Posted by theknub

wife, smife... tell her that the t.v. and receiver went bad (use sabotage if necessary)

I might be able to get away with that on the Receiver, but if I did it with the projector, she'd tell me I'm out of luck probably. hmm.. Maybe not though. She doesn't like watching movies on regular TV's anymore

[theknub]

what size screen do you have? a projector on a large screen will scream out the differences in the two formats, especially at a higher res.

[BTBuck1]

Originally Posted by theknub

what size screen do you have? a projector on a large screen will scream out the differences in the two formats, especially at a higher res.

92" 720p is what he said

[theknub]

Originally Posted by BTBuck1

92" 720p is what he said

ok, at that size, i'd see what you can find in 1080p because you're in for a treat if you do.

[MrBogey]

How can this be? Mr. Neutral isn't banned? Didn't the mods get the memo that we have to ban all neutral or HD DVD supporters or anyone who doesn't tow the line?

Hehe... everyone I've seen griping about being banned here ought to take note. If you're banned around here, it's more than likely not because the mods didn't like you. And by "you" I mean the trolls from AVS who are reading this right here.

[Mr.Neutral]

Originally Posted by theknub

ok, at that size, i'd see what you can find in 1080p because you're in for a treat if you do.

Yeah, I know. When I bought it about 3 years ago (will be 3 in Dec), it was a good value for the price. Its the Sanyo Z3. It was cheaper than the equivalent 42" screens I liked too. Its going to be awhile before I can get the wife to agree on an upgrade - I had to build a 2nd floor laundry room to get the go ahead for this We are re-doing our master bedroom/bathroom and then our kitchen, plus other stuff around the house, so there are more pressing matters.

The way I look at it, by the time I am ready to upgrade, there will be some great choices at some great prices.

Here's the interesting fact - I project onto our wall, not a screen. The wall is also yellow, but the pictures is still amazing. I think it almost enhances the color a little - they sure do pop. But I did have to do some adjusting to get the colors to be the way they should.

[Jonalan34]

Originally Posted by BTBuck1

Because it is impossible to be Neutral. You always have a preference, You just can't admit it. I admit, I like Blu-ray WAYYYY better. I wish I didn't have to have HDDVD AT ALL!!!!!! but because I am a movie lover FIRST, I put that before the format War (that and I got an HDDVD player for my B-day last year by my mother-in-law) and i figured, "what the heck".

I have more HDDVD's than most BD-or-HDDVD fan boys. But I can look you straight in the face and say, I would dump all this crap in a heartbeat for a Unified (BLU) format. The HDDVD spec is Weak sauce. Lossy Audio, Smoothy Vc-1 (Goldie*) low bit rate crap and SD special features...come on, I am a year into it and it already feels "Last gen" to me. I shouldn't see ANYTHING in standard def on this stuff....it's HDDVD...so what gives? I can tell you right now, by not saying you prefer Blu-ray...means you prefer HDDVD, plain and simple.
Anything else, would be...Uncivilized

First of all, I am deaf.

BTBuck1, Yes. I agree with you but on one thing...
Are you sure that you have more HD DVD than what I have in my collection?

I checked your lists on colleciton thread (excluded preorders):
You own 111 Blu-ray.
I own 57 Blu-ray.
Winner is Brian.

You own 57 HD DVD.
I own 70 HD DVD.

Winner is Jon.

You own 168 combination formats.
I own 127 combination formats.

Winner is Brian.

Final score 2-1, winner goes to BTBuck1 that own most movies than anybody.


So, it doesn't matter how many movies you owns.

No matter what you did or have done in past, and just do what it is best for you and follow your heart. Everybody can be forgiven expect who have no respect and step on Blu-ray.com turf. You belong to Blu. I can tell that by your 111 Blu-ray, so keep it up and enjoy it.

Originally Posted by Mr.Neutral

I think thats fairly inaccurate. Format neutral are not sustaining the war. Its those that are only supporting 1 format that are.

And your last comment - are you saying those that are neutral shouldn't post here? This should only be a site for those in love with blu-ray? hmm.. maybe I should setup a new site - forum.i-love-blu-ray.com?

Discussion people like myself and even those pro-HD DVD is good since it helps promote learning. Heck, I would think it would be great for the support of blu-ray to get all the info from the die hard HD DVD supporters. To beat the enemy, you need to know the enemy.

Mr. Neutral,
Be careful on what you say on this forum.

You are speaking as try stab Blu-ray members on this forum by said these in bolds and highlited blue. So, watch what you are saying, some people here don't like it. So just show respect and they will be friendly to ya as you show them respect and manner. It offend somebody and you can get banned for this.

It makes me suspect that you may be a spy since you said that "to beat the emeny, you need to know the enemy."

Now, everybody include you, Mr. Neutral.

I have been here for 8 months on this forum. Some of you know me. I have tremble of respect of ya, it don't matter if I am dual or neutral format or Blu.

But this is Blu-ray forum where I can share my experience, help some people out, and get some news infromation about Blu-ray. I really appriecate alot by of you guys on this forum. I showed turmoil of respect here and very open to talk about my exeprience in honest way, and people need to understand that being neutral or dual format is not ****ing easy. It involves cost, decision, and force you to buy one side as caught up then swap to another side, then back to other side until you become supporter of one format or until war is over.

It can prolong the war but it drive players price down at fast rate, it is good for business but bad for customers.
Why is it bad for us or customers? It will cause confuse people who do not know about it. It is like when you buying paramount on Blu-ray then find out it is no longer on Blu-ray.


People areadly made decision and stick with Blu-ray long time ago, and haven't got HD DVD player or movie today.

My advice for you people, who is pro-Blu-ray and don't have HD DVD, just stick with Blu-ray all the way.

People need to be careful when say neutral. It is not best defense when you are not true neutral and you can be bluff.

Let me make point, being neutral is not easy, and numbers that you own can be trickly when you are building the collection library. Things can have alot of influence on you when you are being neutral, E.G. how wonderful Blu-ray is, and how good pcm uncompress soundtrack is on Blu-ray. Some of you who said neutral and won't admit it and affaird to see HD DVD lose, it show that you are not a true neutral.

When you are neutral, you have to shown that you are not affaird of lose money on spending both formats, and not affaird that one format, like HD DVD will lose this format war. And when you also are neutral, you have to show respect when you are on emeny turf. But you will not be neutral for that long. It is war and once you slide into one side, you are on this side and you are not on the fence anymore.

Two years ago, I knew from this day that I would have both formats, after reading news about sony-tosibia agreement failed, I thought wtf and it look like I have to buy both formats. This forced two formats to be set for next generaiton to replace DVD. I entered format war in Sept 2006 and ramped up HD DVD to 36 by December 2006. I did not join Blu-ray forum this time because it is wrong reason and wrong time to join when you have 36 HD DVD and 0 Blu-ray.

So, now this year, when I start to went into full mode assualt on both formats in Jan 2007, it was not cheap, cost me near thousand dollars for one month alone. It was a gut move that I have ever made. So, I joined here blu-ray.com that month (Jan 2007) when I have Blu-ray in my collection, because it was right time.

I own PS3 for 3 months and have been pruchasing Blu-ray over last 7 months.

Now, for 2007 to date. I had made purchase 57 Blu-rays vs 34 HD DVD.

And I am now at 57 Blu-ray vs 70 HD DVD, I only need 13 more to go to even that number 70. I always keep thinking, which one will reach 75 first.
So, just keep eye on my colleciton in colleciton thread for next several months.

These numbers can destroy your status as neutral and it shows sign of which side you are moving toward.
(2007: Blu-ray 57 vs HD DVD 34)

My Point is, u can't be 100% neutral all time in a lifetime, it only last short time of the period. Only one will end up winner in this format war. It cannot be two formats to be around for long time.

Many of you remember that United States were neutral during World War II, and sent resources to help some country in the World War II. But does neutral last long? No. Japan drop bombs on Pearl Harbor naval ships. President of United States declared that we are going to war, thus it end neutral as not be in war against Axis (Germany, Italy, and Japan).

So. When you try say neutral, you cannot be only on HD DVD. You can't speak of how wonderful it is and Blu-ray fanboys will get at you for saying that.

This is Blu-ray thread and our home community for share our experience and imrpove our knowledge of Blu-ray.

Thank you for your time reading this. You can return to watch Blu-ray movies or play games or whatever you want to do.

Best Regard,
Jon

[GasCat]

M$ $ucks as does $ONY. Yes, I am incredible now. That is all. You may go back to pigeon-holing people into categories.