Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[deeppurpleman]

What percentage of discs have DV? I seem to only have a couple. Is there a master list somewhere?

[blakeyamc]

Originally Posted by deeppurpleman

What percentage of discs have DV? I seem to only have a couple. Is there a master list somewhere?

Try this
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=276448

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Which is fine. It's more the blanket statement that this thing is able to be fine-tuned to any and all displays that my bullshit-o-meter starts pinging wildly. Yesh, the 350-nit mode in the 9000 actually IS designed for high-end JVC projektors but that's about it.

And it's also been recommended to turn off the Optimizer for those with the very latest JVCs (NX5,NX7,NX9) as they now have built-in custom, frame-by-frame DTM (similarly enough to Lumagen).

[wxman2003]

There is a slight improvement when using HDR optimizer with HDR content over 1000 nits, such as in Ghostbusters Answer the Call, when they use their proton packs. The light from those effects tops 1400 nits, and with HDR optimizer on, you see a little more detail, and color in those beams moving across the screen, vs with it off on the A90J. Is it a major improvement? No, because gradation preferred on the Sony does a really good job tone mapping. However, on my older LG E6 OLED, HDR optimizer on is a significant improvement.

[deeppurpleman]

Originally Posted by blakeyamc

Try this
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=276448

Thanks. That seems to match up with what I have. Funny thing is that some of the ones that don't have DV on the disc have it on the streaming version.

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And how many OLEDs hit 1000 nits? Exactly

Sony's A90J and LG's G1 can deliver over 1,000 nits. But that's not the issue. Let's say you have your OLED TV calibrated and it hits 750 nits with Panasonic HDR Optimizer set to the "OLED" TV type and the UB820/UB9000 reformats the PQ to max out at 1,000 nits your 750 nit OLED TV will manage the HDR content beautifully and take over with a reformatted HDR tonal range it can easily manage vs. content that may have been graded and mastered at much higher peak luminance.

Panasonic's HDR Optimizer helps all TVs and projectors to see and manage the very high peak luminance of all HDR content and to display all of the color volume that would not be seen on your display without the HDR Optimizer.

Originally Posted by rickardl

I don't know about these things but aren't you contradicting yourself?

Please reread the entire posts. You can use Panasonic's BD player to also take care of the tone mapping or use the TV to take over for the tone mapping after it reformats the EOTF PQ.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And what the Optimiser does not do is adjust for the average picture level. One of the biggest problems with tone mapping isn't just the taming of ultra-bright highlights (like we and the manufacturers all thought it would be) but the consistent mapping of scene to scene brightness. Even now too many TVs seem to look at the metadata or ignore it outright and decide to apply a 1000-nit or even 4000-nit map to something that may be inside that 'container' but is only a couple hundred nits bright at most, thus reducing the brightness of the content by several factors and making it look incredibly dark.

There's not much that the Optimiser can do about this because it doesn't touch the first 50% (~100 nits) of the signal and can only control what the player is doing, i.e. it cannot override what the inherent mapping methodology is inside the target display. When you change the Optimiser it changes the metadata that's being output, yes, so the TV could then 'see' a 1000-nit container and not a 4000-nit one and adjust accordingly, but it may still be too dark owing to the overriding TV mapping. So all the talk about "matching" the peak luminance is great and all but I still regularly see comments like this one about low APL titles where the dynamic metadata version is the difference maker: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=2109

I mean, if people prefer what the Optimiser is doing then that's on them and their personal taste, but the idea that it's somehow more accurate to the image when it's applying its own linear 're-eq' of the logarithmic PQ EOTF which is THEN being remapped by the TV anyway is wide of the mark. All this eulogising over the Optimiser would be spot on if we could set the nits level ourselves, but we can't. We're setting it to an arbitrary level of nits, if the display's tonal range actually matches this then it's just dumb luck and so most displays will have a fair degree of overlap. Again: blunt instrument.

Actually the HDR Optimizer does adjust and reformat the entire EOTF PQ, but most of the reformatting is performed above 100 nits.

To answer the question of using the HDR Optimizer of not is for every user is to do the very quick a/b comparison with the HDR Optimizer on and off and judge the differences and advantages of the HDR Optimizer in your system.

[Robert Zohn]

Just a quick reminder that other than selecting your "Display type" is to turn on the HDR Optimizer, which is in a different menu.

To really add value to this thread I'd like to ask all UB820 and UB9000 owners to do the very quick a/b test with the HDR Optimizer on and off with varied HDR content to get a good feeling for how it operates and enhances the HDR images.

[Geoff D]

Yes, that’s the problem, we’ve not been turning it on. It’s like talking to a PR robot

[tama]

Originally Posted by wxman2003

There is a slight improvement when using HDR optimizer with HDR content over 1000 nits, such as in Ghostbusters Answer the Call, when they use their proton packs. The light from those effects tops 1400 nits, and with HDR optimizer on, you see a little more detail, and color in those beams moving across the screen, vs with it off on the A90J. Is it a major improvement? No, because gradation preferred on the Sony does a really good job tone mapping. However, on my older LG E6 OLED, HDR optimizer on is a significant improvement.

It's why I suggested going with the high 1500 nit instead. Some of the Sonys go way beyond 1400 nits in peak.

Also I was actually playing around a bit with Wonka. It helped a bit with some sky scenes. One early background sky scene in the film right before Charlie passes by Wonkas factory the sunset sky is whitish without the Optimizer but regains that orange hue with it on.

To me personally little things like that go a long way as its not just about those speculars but color volume as well.

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yes, that’s the problem, we’ve not been turning it on. It’s like talking to a PR robot

Thanks Geoff!

Glad you agree that unfortunately most UB820 and UB9000 users do not know that the HDR Optimizer is off by default and anyone would normally think that once you select the HDR Optimizer "Display Type" it would be enabled.

Not sure this is a funny issue, but glad to see you know and understand and know how to find the 2nd extra secret menu to turn on the HDR Optimizer!

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

And it's also been recommended to turn off the Optimizer for those with the very latest JVCs (NX5,NX7,NX9) as they now have built-in custom, frame-by-frame DTM (similarly enough to Lumagen).

JVC's top engineers still recommend using Panasonics' HDR Optimizer with the NX5, NX7 and NX9. Not to do any tone mapping as JVC manages the frame-by-frame tone mapping, but it does greatly benefit by the taming of the very high peak luminance that HDR content is mastered for.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

JVC's top engineers still recommend using Panasonics' HDR Optimizer with the NX5, NX7 and NX9. Not to do any tone mapping as JVC manages the frame-by-frame tone mapping, but it does greatly benefit by the taming of the very high peak luminance that HDR content is mastered for.

Interesting. Some time ago there was a long conversation about this over at AVS and I think Kris was part of it...recommending not to use the Optimizer with the JVC DTM (I thought by using the JVC customized input you enter peak nits from your screen and screen size that would tailor your high peak luminance? Been a while since I read the details and I am still using an older JVC). The thought was it would be a negative because you're basically applying two tone maps at the same time. In addition, there are said to be a number of UHD BDs where the metadata is not accurate...which would make the Optimizer ineffective or less so. With that said, I have tested the Optimizer and it really helps some discs on my set-up.

[Robert Zohn]

^ Thanks for letting us know. I am quoting JVC USA's top technical specialists so I am sure this is the best solution when watching streamed or physical disc HDR content on any JVC projector. I have JVC's NX9 and the UB9000 in my personal theater and have tried the a/b comparison and it's clear and easy to see the many advantages of using Panasonic HDR Optimizer.

It's not abut tone mapping, which JVC is excellent at, but it can't manage content that is mastered at the high peak luminance. Lumagen is another very good example of how to best manage high peak luminance HDR content on any projection system.

I'd suggest for any AVS Forum member who wants to get technical advice on the UB820 and UB9000 as well as many other technical issues is to join blu-ray.com.

[blakeyamc]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

The thought was it would be a negative because you're basically applying two tone maps at the same time.

It is my understanding that the optimizer just supplies a new static tone map to the display. For example, if a UHD had, mastered at 1000 nits in it's metadata, and you had the optimizer set at basic (500 nits), your display would get a static metadata tone map of max 500 nits, instead of 1000. Your display would still need to tone map that, if the display couldn't reach 500 nits (like a lot of cheap TVs and projectors) and provide a 2nd tone map of their own, to bring those 500 nits in at a level that the display can achieve, via it's internal DTM.

[pbz06]

Originally Posted by tama

When it comes to the A90J while it easily best my old LG B7 OLED with its approach it still needs help with super high nit content. Tested several titles including some of Sonys and you will still lose color volume and lose specular highlights in certain scenes. Set it at 1000 medium/oled setting.

Some could experiment and set it to high 1500.

In the end OLED tech is still OLED tech.

I agree. I use it with the 77 A9G for this reason. It's not just the peak white specular highlights that get resolved and see the details, but bright scenes with bright colors see an improvement.

[riptor3076]

I have two LG OLEDs, 55B6 for the bedroom and 65C8 for the main TV. On the B6 the optimizer makes a very noticeable difference. I tried various discs on the C8, optimizer on/off, DTM on/off on the TV. Finally settled on optimizer on and DTM on. It was a very minor difference but I could see a bit more detail. Might all be my imagination but looked better. I just leave the optimizer on because I got tired of changing it.

[Waboman]

Originally Posted by pbz06

I agree. I use it with the 77 A9G for this reason. It's not just the peak white specular highlights that get resolved and see the details, but bright scenes with bright colors see an improvement.

So you prefer to use the optimizer with your a9g? What about DV from the 9000?

[pbz06]

Originally Posted by Waboman

So you prefer to use the optimizer with your a9g? What about DV from the 9000?

Yes to your first question. With it Off, the scenes that exceed OLED capabilities is obvious (i.e. colors and white get clipped). Of course this isn't common in general, since most movies stay within a more comfortable APL or peaks for the TV. If you have the S&M UHD disc, you can test it with 2000 and 4000 nit versions. The 4000 is an extreme torture test so perhaps try the 2000 first. The scene with the ocean waves crashing on the rocky beach is a good one...look at the water and the white bubbles. Several of the scenes have bright skies too, and of course the famous scene with the horses in the snow.

I do turn off DV for other reasons. Mostly because I've noticed random misc issues with near black posterization. Very rare, but since A9G uses a good DTM reading the histogram info and properly tracking EOTF nyway, it's very comparable to DV and closes gaps of any advantages DV may provide.

Since A90J is TV led Dolby vision and can also get much brighter, it likely is a toss-up. You can try HDR10 content and toggle on and off on the Optimizer. DV is likely better for you to use than on a9G.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Just a quick reminder that other than selecting your "Display type" is to turn on the HDR Optimizer, which is in a different menu.

To really add value to this thread I'd like to ask all UB820 and UB9000 owners to do the very quick a/b test with the HDR Optimizer on and off with varied HDR content to get a good feeling for how it operates and enhances the HDR images.

That's exactly what I have done with my 820 on my LG C9. I went from turning the HDR Optimizer "On" and "Off" as well as watched varied content. For me at least, I came to the conclusion that the LG C9 does a great job tone mapping HDR content up to around 1,500 nits. After that, it needs help. This is why I have set the HDR Optimizer display to "Super High Luminance" or 1,500 nits.

A lot of people need to realize that the HDR Optimizer Display Settings were made back in 2018/2019. OLEDs have gotten better when it comes to tone mapping, so the OLED setting (or 1,000 nits) may not be the setting that you should have for your OLED. Your OLED may be better than what you think.

Now, I also use the Dynamic Tone Mapping function on my LG C9 with the HDR Optimizer "On". I like how the picture is. Again, these are my settings and they may differ from your experience.

[martinstraka8282]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

That's exactly what I have done with my 820 on my LG C9. I went from turning the HDR Optimizer "On" and "Off" as well as watched varied content. For me at least, I came to the conclusion that the LG C9 does a great job tone mapping HDR content up to around 1,500 nits. After that, it needs help. This is why I have set the HDR Optimizer display to "Super High Luminance" or 1,500 nits.

A lot of people need to realize that the HDR Optimizer Display Settings were made back in 2018/2019. OLEDs have gotten better when it comes to tone mapping, so the OLED setting (or 1,000 nits) may not be the setting that you should have for your OLED. Your OLED may be better than what you think.

Now, I also use the Dynamic Tone Mapping function on my LG C9 with the HDR Optimizer "On". I like how the picture is. Again, these are my settings and they may differ from your experience.

I thought the C9's, CX's, and even the C1's, are all still below 1000 nits by a fair margin. Isn't it around ~800 nits?