4K UHD Blu-ray Playback on PC Desktop is officially dead in 2021?

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

TPM has been around since Windows 10. It is required to use BitLocker. TPM doesn’t require Windows 11.

Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about and yet you seem to have no problems spewing nonsense. TPMs have been around since 2009, and supported on Windows since Vista, primarily to enable BitLocker but open to other uses too. TPM has gotten a bigger push with Win11 and, to some extent, Win10, but it's been around for almost 15 years now. Anybody with a bit of programming prowess is quite welcome to use them for any purpose their heart so desires.

[nick4Knight]

Originally Posted by MelonGx

Not all the countries allow illegal steps even for limited personal usage.

You don't say. My point was that millions, perhaps even 1 billion these days are "technically" breaking some degree of law by ripping their own DVD, BD or 4K stuff or pirating from online. Both bypassing DRM.

You can't lock up hundreds of millions of people for this. And so that's not a thing law enforcement even cares to follow up. You have to be doing something else in 2022 in order to be found out you're breaking this law on personal usage. So thats the thing you should be worried about. Doing other illegal activities that would even lead you to be investigated hah

Or you're some weird goody-two-shoes type.

[slimjean]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

People still believe the successor to 4K discs will be embraced? Considering where we are at with disc sales and streaming? Seems like the end of the road to me.

Where are we at with streaming. Barely 50% still!

If it gets to 10% physical we might...just might get to VHS rental days.

People put far too much stock in fad Covid couch potatos (myself included), meanwhile 4K releases are churning out so fast, I got no time to watch them all!

4K's are already being embraced and honestly I am shocked at how fast it is happening. It is just that so many think that it should match DVD sales which is never going to happen. Most of that low quality lover population jumped to streaming and those were the same people killing each other over pulling rental tags.

The future of movie archiving is based on that??

Originally Posted by MrMahn

4K Blu-ray is not secure in the slightest anymore. Remux rips are up on sites within a day of release.

The thing is duplication only happens from me when I want my own mix that I am not provided. I legit have all parts, just mix and match what I choose.

This so called encryption problem is going to be circumvented in a minute.

I will keep buying up all players I can afford while chicken run around screaming the sky is falling.

The funny part is that players I doubt will go away anytime soon. Sony has always been stubborn and that has been a great thing in my book.

Originally Posted by MrMahn

You severely underestimate how ridiculously easy it is to rip a Blu-ray or download a pirated copy. The only thing DRM does is annoy legitimate customers, perhaps even pushing them to piracy ironically enough.

Amen!

[bhampton]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

People still believe the successor to 4K discs will be embraced? Considering where we are at with disc sales and streaming? Seems like the end of the road to me.

I personally would be all for that.

Blu Ray in many ways is good enough really and UHD BD is better than that!

I upgraded one of my most loved DVDs to Blu Ray recently. I probably wouldn't bother with most of my DVDs.

It will take a while to upgrade my Blu Rays to UHD BD but it's fun in the meantime.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by nick4Knight

You don't say. My point was that millions, perhaps even 1 billion these days are "technically" breaking some degree of law by ripping their own DVD, BD or 4K stuff or pirating from online. Both bypassing DRM.

You can't lock up hundreds of millions of people for this. And so that's not a thing law enforcement even cares to follow up. You have to be doing something else in 2022 in order to be found out you're breaking this law on personal usage. So thats the thing you should be worried about. Doing other illegal activities that would even lead you to be investigated hah

Or you're some weird goody-two-shoes type.

You don't want to have illegally ripped contents of discs on your computer as they can land you in federal prison if found.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by bhampton

I personally would be all for that.

Blu Ray in many ways is good enough really and UHD BD is better than that!

I upgraded one of my most loved DVDs to Blu Ray recently. I probably wouldn't bother with most of my DVDs.

It will take a while to upgrade my Blu Rays to UHD BD but it's fun in the meantime.

Would be nice to have another format that patches up the few limitations of this one, but I just don't think it's gonna happen. UHD Blu-ray is a drop in the ocean compared to streaming.

200 GB discs - I know studios aren't gonna put film trilogies on single discs, since they want people to be able to buy them separately and aren't gonna print discs separately for the bundles and individual releases, but it would benefit TV shows by shrinking boxes and making the users get up less.

48 fps support - I want this to make a comeback in future movies, and I want discs to be ready for it. Technically, they could release The Hobbit trilogy in HFR, but it would be sped up by about 1/24 frame, since UHD only supports 50 fps.

Adjustable subtitles - Option to move them up and down, for those of us who hate having them on the letterbox and the others of us who hate having them on the picture. Actually, improved graphics support for subs would be nice too. Don't get me wrong; I don't want studios to go all tasteless anime fansub with them.

Standard definition support, so that SD special features don't have to be encoded in Full HD (which looks weird a lot of the time) or put on a separate Blu-ray disc.

Some kind of smart scaling system that removes the need for black bars on the disc. Meaning a 2.4:1 movie could be encoded in 3840x1600 and a 1.37:1 movie could be encoded in 2960x2160.

Can't remember any others right now.

Originally Posted by BijouMan

You don't want to have illegally ripped contents of discs on your computer as they can land you in federal prison if found.

Judas Priest - Breaking The Law (Official Music Video) - YouTube

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Would be nice to have another format that patches up the few limitations of this one, but I just don't think it's gonna happen. UHD Blu-ray is a drop in the ocean compared to streaming.

200 GB discs - I know studios aren't gonna put film trilogies on single discs, since they want people to be able to buy them separately and aren't gonna print discs separately for the bundles and individual releases, but it would benefit TV shows by shrinking boxes and making the users get up less.

48 fps support - I want this to make a comeback in future movies, and I want discs to be ready for it. Technically, they could release The Hobbit trilogy in HFR, but it would be sped up by about 1/24 frame, since UHD only supports 50 fps.

Adjustable subtitles - Option to move them up and down, for those of us who hate having them on the letterbox and the others of us who hate having them on the picture. Actually, improved graphics support for subs would be nice too. Don't get me wrong; I don't want studios to go all tasteless anime fansub with them.

Standard definition support, so that SD special features don't have to be encoded in Full HD (which looks weird a lot of the time) or put on a separate Blu-ray disc.

Some kind of smart scaling system that removes the need for black bars on the disc. Meaning a 2.4:1 movie could be encoded in 3840x1600 and a 1.37:1 movie could be encoded in 2960x2160.

Can't remember any others right now.

Judas Priest - Breaking The Law (Official Music Video) - YouTube

There is nothing in the Blu-ray specification that specifies a 200 GB disc. Such a thing would require even more layers, and there is only room for so many. Also, Ultra HD Blu-ray allows for up to 60 frames per second. A “smart scaling system” would mean that the picture would have to be either stretched or cut off to fit the screen, which none of us want.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

There is nothing in the Blu-ray specification that specifies a 200 GB disc. Such a thing would require even more layers, and there is only room for so many. Also, Ultra HD Blu-ray allows for up to 60 frames per second. A “smart scaling system” would mean that the picture would have to be either stretched or cut off to fit the screen, which none of us want.

We were talking about a hypothetical successor to 4K Blu-ray. Obviously, its successor wouldn't be limited to 100 GB. A single layer could be 100 GB. Who knows?

Yet media players have no issue playing videos in different dimensions, bringing the picture to the borders of the screen without stretching. If the BDA can't figure that out for the next format, then they're an even bigger joke than I thought. Encoded black bars suck.

[Warm Gun]

Watching another music video DVD right now. Pretty bothersome that I have to zoom in and pull back from video to video because the whole disc is in 4:3 and some of the videos are in letterboxed widescreen. I'd have this window-boxing problem again if I ever decided to watch Blu-rays on an ultra wide monitor or TV. With how far we've come technologically, this couldn't be fixed before the new format was released in 2016? Why just assume that everyone will watch in 16x9, for perpetuity? What trash.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

TPM has been around since Windows 10. It is required to use BitLocker. TPM doesn’t require Windows 11.

TPM 1.2 has been around since Windows 7. My point is that since Windows 11 requires TPM 2.0 with secure boot activated then that would be the ideal operating system for the BDA to use. Microsoft supports 4K Blu-ray and Blu-ray on most the Xbox systems. In the ideal world the BDA should make a business agreement with Microsoft, so that that Windows 11 or 12 natively supports 4K Blu-ray discs with a built in free app to the operating system.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

We were talking about a hypothetical successor to 4K Blu-ray. Obviously, its successor wouldn't be limited to 100 GB. A single layer could be 100 GB. Who knows?

Yet media players have no issue playing videos in different dimensions, bringing the picture to the borders of the screen without stretching. If the BDA can't figure that out for the next format, then they're an even bigger joke than I thought. Encoded black bars suck.

In the ideal world a new 20TB optical disc that contains lossless 8K video and audio would be ideal. Since we do not live in the ideal world lossy video has to be used with lower capacity optical discs. If there is going to be a 8K optical disc format released around the year 2026 or 2028 then a 200GB 8K disc could become a reality. If there is 4 layers and each layer is 50GB then 200GB is possible. It would use lossy 8K video with a new video codec better then HEVC. Plus the movies could be released with lossless Auro 13.1 that uses 7.1 PCM core audio along with all the other existing audio codecs currently used on Blu-ray. The new format could be called 8K Blu-ray or 8K DVD. The 8K optical disc would use unbreakable 512 bit military encryption that makes piracy impossible for at least the next ten years.

There is a bubble currently happening with too many streaming providers (just like the Internet bubble that happen back around the year 2000). Instead of some streaming providers going under, there might be mergers. There are many consumers over the last 10 years that have purchased several thousands of dollars' worth of movies in the cloud. If one of those major streaming providers files for bankruptcy and goes out of business, then several millions of consumers will lose several thousands of dollars worth of movies that they have purchased over the last 5 to 10 years. While some consumers will just repurchase some of the movies again with another streaming provider, around 40% of the consumers that lost their entire collection in the cloud would start buying physical media like 4K Blu-ray and standard Blu-ray that can last up to 1,000 years. Optical discs like 4K Blu-ray also offer the best picture and sound quality.

Maybe no major or minor streaming provider will go out of business, and instead there will be mergers to get rid of the streaming bubble. But if only one major streaming provider goes out of business and millions of consumers lose there entire collection in the cloud, there will be a big movement and shift back to optical discs.

[usually_quiet]

Originally Posted by apollo828

Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about and yet you seem to have no problems spewing nonsense. TPMs have been around since 2009, and supported on Windows since Vista, primarily to enable BitLocker but open to other uses too. TPM has gotten a bigger push with Win11 and, to some extent, Win10, but it's been around for almost 15 years now. Anybody with a bit of programming prowess is quite welcome to use them for any purpose their heart so desires.

Both AMD and Intel support the use of TPM. Only Intel uses SGX. I have no idea what it is but there must be some significant advantage to SGX that explains why the BDA decided to use SGX instead of TPM for memory encryption.

[apollo828]

With TPM, the decrypted data is sitting in unencrypted memory. All the TPM does is offer a relatively secure method to encrypt/decrypt without exposing private keys to the outside world. If you have a method for exposing the memory where the unencrypted data sits (e.g., the Rowhammer attack), TPMs don't matter. That's why the BDA bought into SGX. At the time, they thought SGX would defeat such attacks. Turns out that's not the case, not to mention it's all moot anyway due to the tools that can decrypt discs. (The more complicated you make your encryption scheme, the more likely a bug will bring it all down.)

If the BDA is going to approve anything, it'll probably be Pluton. I believe the first general purpose PCs will come with Pluton around spring/summer. Of course, it'll be awhile before there's enough hardware out there to make it worthwhile to companies like Cyberlink, not to mention it's security theater anyway due to the decryption tools that are already out there. So, I'll be surprised if the BDA approves it for general purpose PCs (again, there's a world of difference between a locked-down console and a PC from a security design standpoint), much less if any companies expend resources to support it.

[usually_quiet]

Originally Posted by apollo828

With TPM, the decrypted data is sitting in unencrypted memory. All the TPM does is offer a relatively secure method to encrypt/decrypt without exposing private keys to the outside world. If you have a method for exposing the memory where the unencrypted data sits (e.g., the Rowhammer attack), TPMs don't matter. That's why the BDA bought into SGX. At the time, they thought SGX would defeat such attacks. Turns out that's not the case, not to mention it's all moot anyway due to the tools that can decrypt discs. (The more complicated you make your encryption scheme, the more likely a bug will bring it all down.)

If the BDA is going to approve anything, it'll probably be Pluton. I believe the first general purpose PCs will come with Pluton around spring/summer. Of course, it'll be awhile before there's enough hardware out there to make it worthwhile to companies like Cyberlink, not to mention it's security theater anyway due to the decryption tools that are already out there. So, I'll be surprised if the BDA approves it for general purpose PCs (again, there's a world of difference between a locked-down console and a PC from a security design standpoint), much less if Amy companies expend resources to support it.

Thanks. It is as I thought. There is no way that TPM would have been overlooked in the first place if it was a better option than SGX or about the same. ...and the idea of using TPM to protect decrypted UHD Blu-ray data in place of SGX is just another pipe dream.

[apollo828]

Exactly. You could potentially use TPMs in conjunction with, say, AMD's Full Memory Encryption (FME). That could work. Even then, there's the question of discrete TPMs (pretty much gone now but still technically out there) and TPMs integrated into newer processors. Personally, I think TPMs are fine, assuming the decryption scheme will work with it. (I forget the exact details but, IRC, it won't, at least not without some pretty wild hacks that kinda nullify TPM's strong points.) I mean, it's used for disk encryption that, AFAIK, hasn't been broken. But, my opinion doesn't matter. Only the BDA's opinion matters, and they've made it clear what they expect for 4K content. Only Pluton has any shot at somebody caring enough to try to get it approved. Any company working on that will basically be flushing money down the toilet for at least two more years, assuming they're even able to turn a profit, ever.

[nick4Knight]

Originally Posted by MrMahn

You severely underestimate how ridiculously easy it is to rip a Blu-ray or download a pirated copy. The only thing DRM does is annoy legitimate customers, perhaps even pushing them to piracy ironically enough.

Definitely. There are some really sheltered "boomer" takes in this topic. Studios attempts to stop it and their practices in general for 100% certain push large amounts of society today to take matters into their own hands on either of those fronts.

Those who would never pay in the first place, pirate. That's it. There is no more to it. No money being lost. Even if that outlet stopped tomorrow they'll just go to streaming where the cost of thousands of titles on demand is the cost of one single physical disc (on sale) they could purchase with the same cost budget per month.

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

In the ideal world a new 20TB optical disc that contains lossless 8K video and audio would be ideal. Since we do not live in the ideal world lossy video has to be used with lower capacity optical discs. If there is going to be a 8K optical disc format released around the year 2026 or 2028 then a 200GB 8K disc could become a reality. If there is 4 layers and each layer is 50GB then 200GB is possible. It would use lossy 8K video with a new video codec better then HEVC. Plus the movies could be released with lossless Auro 13.1 that uses 7.1 PCM core audio along with all the other existing audio codecs currently used on Blu-ray. The new format could be called 8K Blu-ray or 8K DVD.

[Show spoiler]The 8K optical disc would use unbreakable 512 bit military encryption that makes piracy impossible for at least the next ten years.

There is a bubble currently happening with too many streaming providers (just like the Internet bubble that happen back around the year 2000). Instead of some streaming providers going under, there might be mergers. There are many consumers over the last 10 years that have purchased several thousands of dollars' worth of movies in the cloud. If one of those major streaming providers files for bankruptcy and goes out of business, then several millions of consumers will lose several thousands of dollars worth of movies that they have purchased over the last 5 to 10 years. While some consumers will just repurchase some of the movies again with another streaming provider, around 40% of the consumers that lost their entire collection in the cloud would start buying physical media like 4K Blu-ray and standard Blu-ray that can last up to 1,000 years. Optical discs like 4K Blu-ray also offer the best picture and sound quality.

Maybe no major or minor streaming provider will go out of business, and instead there will be mergers to get rid of the streaming bubble. But if only one major streaming provider goes out of business and millions of consumers lose there entire collection in the cloud, there will be a big movement and shift back to optical discs.

Giant if. And I still don't think it's happening. I, not to be a broken record, see way more likelihood of a digital 4K like BDCORE but ramped up the spec even further. Either streaming based or digital download model.

[LexInHD]

Originally Posted by usually_quiet

Both AMD and Intel support the use of TPM. Only Intel uses SGX. I have no idea what it is but there must be some significant advantage to SGX that explains why the BDA decided to use SGX instead of TPM for memory encryption.

SGX and TPM are not the same thing. SGX COMPLIMENTS TPM and is a secure memory space for security keys and other information, whereas TPM is just security hardware equipment built into a CPU or on the motherboard. On the board, it can be broken into, making it worthless for actual security purposes. The BDA used SGX because Intel - the same company behind HDCP - presented it to them during the development talks and cutting edge Intel CPU/GPU hardware was used during the actual development phase, while AMD had no involvement in any of it, despite having their own similar approach. That's why Intel is "the only option". As SGX got busted up shortly after it rolled out to consumers and was used in malware attacks, AMD's own solution became dead-in-the-water, as it wasn't much different from Intel's own and had similar drawbacks. That's why the Pluton processor was developed by Microsoft and will be integrated into AMD mobile/embedded APUs shipping this year, with Intel products to follow later.

[MelonGx]

Originally Posted by nick4Knight

You don't say. My point was that millions, perhaps even 1 billion these days are "technically" breaking some degree of law by ripping their own DVD, BD or 4K stuff or pirating from online. Both bypassing DRM.

You can't lock up hundreds of millions of people for this. And so that's not a thing law enforcement even cares to follow up. You have to be doing something else in 2022 in order to be found out you're breaking this law on personal usage. So thats the thing you should be worried about. Doing other illegal activities that would even lead you to be investigated hah

Or you're some weird goody-two-shoes type.

What I exactly meant is that if you want to discuss any unoffical method (including play with DVDFab Player, play the ripped files, etc.), please go to a forum where allows talking piracy but not here.

You're trying to break this forum's regulation. We won't let you do that.

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by LexInHD

On the board, it can be broken into, making it worthless for actual security purposes.

Just so everybody's clear, TPM chips *are* pretty foolproof. Maybe nation-states have solutions, and maybe the oldest TPMs have issues, but anything reasonably modern is secure. The problem is the path in and out of the TPM. This is mitigated somewhat by building the TPM into the CPU. It isn't foolproof, though. That's also why I keep banging on & on about how you can't just drop Pluton into a PC and expect the BDA to be happy. They need to know how the data will flow internally.

In any event, there are some other solutions that can mitigate the TPM issues, but they're far too expensive/complicated for Joe Schmoe. Pluton's the last hope for anybody who wants to use a PC to watch encrypted 4K discs. I hope these people aren't holding their breath.

[HDTV1080P]

Maybe Microsoft one day will come out with Windows 12 and require the Microsoft pluton processor security chip which is more secure then TPM 2.0. Then maybe the BDA might choose to use Pluton instead of TPM 2.0. However, Pluton would need to be mandated in all new AMD and Intel CPU’s if that is the agreed upon security. But the main problem is everyone that wants to playback 4K Blu-ray discs will need to buy a new PC if the BDA decides to use Pluton technology for 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray playback. 4K Blu-ray came out in 2016, and less then 1% of Windows 10 owners can playback 4K Blu-ray discs because of the stupid existing SGX security requirement.

Quote

“The Pluton design removes the potential for that communication channel to be attacked by building security directly into the CPU. Windows PCs using the Pluton architecture will first emulate a TPM that works with the existing TPM specifications and APIs, which will allow customers to immediately benefit from enhanced security for Windows features that rely on TPMs like BitLocker and System Guard. Windows devices with Pluton will use the Pluton security processor to protect credentials, user identities, encryption keys, and personal data. None of this information can be removed from Pluton even if an attacker has installed malware or has complete physical possession of the PC.”

https://www.microsoft.com/security/b...f-windows-pcs/