Focal Sib 5.1.2 "up-firers" vs. Kef T-series 5.2.2?

[oddbox83]

Hi, hope no one minds me starting a new thread but I have a specific question about the idea I have from changing my Focal Sib Evo 5.1.2 setup (with integrated front upfirers). I love them and they give a great sound, though clearly an "Atmos-lite" variant. I've got them wall mounted as well, and noticed the lower end output has suffered since they were on stands (something I no longer have the space for). Plus they look ugly wall mounted, IMO.

I'm fascinated by Kef's T-series. Those are going to look very nice indeed mounted next to the TV and are sonically designed for such. In my queries though I've been told my my local dealer it'll be a little step back and won't give as full a sound my my Focal's.

On the other hand, I could ceiling mount 2 T101s (top middle I think) quite easily in a retrofit without cutting into the ceiling so I'd get far better Atmos effects.

The store also suggested, due to the smaller size I could maybe fit 2 Kef T2 subs (left and right below the front L&R speakers) in place of my single Focal Cub Evo (hived off to below the L front), which could help facilitate a smoother bass to compensate for what I lose in speaker depth.

Another issue I have is side placement for the surrounds is extremely difficult in my room layout, and even with other obstacles surmounted, I'd still be sitting very close to the left surround. What I've done at the moment with my Focal's is rear mount. I know it's a fudge and I'd be better off with bipole's for rears in such a situation, but again it all comes down to a trade-off between available space and quality. I'm wondering how well the T-series would perform mounted on the rear for 5.2.2, since they proudly state their "tangerine" waveguide with a wide dispersal?

Sorry if that comes out a bit jumbled, but I'm in two minds about "upgrading" or just putting up with my dominating Focals? Thanks.

[CreasyBear]

The speakers themselves seem pretty comparable on paper. I wouldn't expect a ton of low end from either one to be honest. The KEF's are nicer looking being wall mounted. If anything, this isn't really an upgrade, but more of a lateral move, mostly for appearances it seems. $1k for satellite's and a tiny subwoofer is not really a great value, imo. And that's with it on sale. If I were you, I'd save and make a true upgrade to bookshelves or towers and maybe in-walls for the surrounds if possible or bipboles for the rear surrounds, mounting them about 2 feet above ear level. And then go with a real subwoofer from SVS or HSU. How big is your room?

[Scarriere]

Your Focals are nice speakers.
I'd avoid changing your front stage to those T's. In my opinion, it'd be a step back.
Putting the T's above you for Atmos is a decent idea. Are the front upfirers defeatable? Do the front speakers have two inputs and you can take the Atmos input out and put it on the T's for above you?

Having your surrounds behind you rather than beside you isn't that big of a deal. Whatever room calibration that you've used should read and compensate for having the S/L close to you. If not, just turn that level down a hair, but not too much.

For your sub choice, it seems size is a big concern. For that, I'd avoid the sub you mentioned and go strictly with a SVS PB-1000 or two. There's a very short list of subwoofers that are smaller and still perform well. That SVS is likely at the top or very near near to it. The price is attractive as well.
Myself, if space were a major concern, I wouldn't consider any other.

Your room layout would be helpful.
I think you're getting on the right track.

[CreasyBear]

I have two PB-1000's and they are outstanding. Best bang for your buck out there.

[oddbox83]

Originally Posted by CreasyBear

The speakers themselves seem pretty comparable on paper. I wouldn't expect a ton of low end from either one to be honest. The KEF's are nicer looking being wall mounted. If anything, this isn't really an upgrade, but more of a lateral move, mostly for appearances it seems. $1k for satellite's and a tiny subwoofer is not really a great value, imo. And that's with it on sale. If I were you, I'd save and make a true upgrade to bookshelves or towers and maybe in-walls for the surrounds if possible or bipboles for the rear surrounds, mounting them about 2 feet above ear level. And then go with a real subwoofer from SVS or HSU. How big is your room?

Well yes, it's a living room so appearance is as important as the quality.

There's zero way I can squeeze in towers or any larger size. In walls, LOL. Nope, solid brick even if I could!

It's not so much size as layout of the room that severely limits what I can fit in. There are no true corners front left and right, but doorways either side so all the AV gear has to fit between those. The 65" TV leaves very little room for speakers before the door frames get in the way. The Focals are currently the very maximum I can get away with. Below is the unit with the gear on, and a sub. I can only fit 1 sub here, or 2 slimline subs. I used to have the sub down the right side but this didn't sound good.

Left in the middle of the room close to MLP is the chimney breast and fireplace. Right rear corner is another door. Middle rear is a window, so bipoles are going to be hard to fit in too as there's a tiny bit of wall between the window edge and door, where the Focals now sit either side of the window.

Factor in sofas and furniture and you can probably get an idea how limited I am. Big is no.

I had considered changing the room layout, but decided it's already the best it can be. Other option was TV in a corner but I hate sitting off-centre as that'll make speaker compromises even more profound. I've had it the reverse way around previously, but it's a much larger TV now and would block much of the window. Wall mounting the TV above the fireplace would have it way too high as well as high-risk because it has a wood-burning stove.

Originally Posted by Scarriere

For your sub choice, it seems size is a big concern. For that, I'd avoid the sub you mentioned and go strictly with a SVS PB-1000 or two.

I'd only fit one of those in, and would it be much of an upgrade over the Cub?

For clarity, I don't want (and can't have for neighbours) room-shaking bass, I want clear, precise bass at low to average volumes.

I agree, the Focals are great and as I said, I love how they sound. Wall mounting them has really muddied the (rear) ports though, crossover has to be set around 110 which is higher than when I could have them freestanding further away from the walls. This is part of me wondering about the T-series, it being specifically designed to be wall mounted so even if they are limited in some ways, I might gain benefit in other areas for my particular setup.

From what you guys have said though, I'd edging towards keeping my Focals. I might still change my sub though.... I'm still sure 2 smaller ones might be better for my room layout than one heftier one. Unless changing to forward firing might work for me (as it would be situated to fire pretty close towards MLP) but I've only ever got more confused whenever I tried to research the pros and cons of forward vs down firing subs given just how many different opinions there are.

[CreasyBear]

If space is an issue, try one of the SVS SB-1000. Smaller footprint. Tight bass. Not roomshaking. That cube can't compete.

[oddbox83]

I've looked at the T2 again, and it probably wouldn't be suitable anyway since it's small part is it's depth, so I'd have to have it sideways for 2!

In terms of tiny sizes, how is the Q Acoustics 3060S? I'd fit two of those in no issues! Two of those would be the same price near enough as 1 SB-1000. Or is 1 better one always desirable over 2 smaller ones?

I note the SB-1000 has smart features such as low-pass filters. Hmm. Might this be the magic thing I've been needing to get decent bass that won't worry neighbours? Honestly, I can never enjoy a very bassy movie soundtrack because of that constant worry it's too loud! My sub is currently about 25-50% lower than the calibrated setting and I still worry it gets too boomy. Or can I do this roll-off on the more troublesome frequencies in the Denon (pay for) EQ app I know is available? Honestly, the more I learn, the more I realise I need to learn!

I'm on a wood floor as well, and can often feel bass more than hear it with the Cub. You can hear the bass more in other rooms! Maybe that's just because I've got it integrated* well with the speakers so I don't hear a localised sub at MLP, but I dunno.

*Thanks in part to your advice on calibrating a while back in another thread a while back.

[CreasyBear]

I used to have two BIC F12's, maybe the best budget subwoofer out there and sometimes when they'd try to reach below 30hz they'd vibrate the walls. The subwoofers were struggling and became boomy. When I upgraded to the SVS PB1000's that boomy sound was gone. The walls didn't rattle. Just clean tight powerful audible bass. One quality subwoofer, like an SB1000 is better than two puny boomboxes. I recommend getting a SubDude or the SVS Isolation feet since you're on a wood floor. Even if you don't upgrade the subwoofer, you should have one anyway given the wood flooring.

[oddbox83]

As an aside to this conversation, I looked into the Audyssey MultiEQ app and watched a video suggesting Cinema EQ is probably best turned off.

I'd just left that on as I'd assumed it was doing it's job to correct for my room but the video I saw suggested it was making the bass too pronounced at lower volumes (which, I'd assume from what has been said here, is going to be made all the worse by a lesser sub). So I've had a play and the bass is much lower with EQ turned off.

So I think it's safest if I redo my calibration one day soon (because what I know now is of course more than I knew last time I did it) before I spend any more money.

I think that SB1000 is a sexy little beast. Thanks for suggesting it, that one's on my maybe list for sure.

[CreasyBear]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

As an aside to this conversation, I looked into the Audyssey MultiEQ app and watched a video suggesting Cinema EQ is probably best turned off.

I'd just left that on as I'd assumed it was doing it's job to correct for my room but the video I saw suggested it was making the bass too pronounced at lower volumes (which, I'd assume from what has been said here, is going to be made all the worse by a lesser sub). So I've had a play and the bass is much lower with EQ turned off.

So I think it's safest if I redo my calibration one day soon (because what I know now is of course more than I knew last time I did it) before I spend any more money.

I think that SB1000 is a sexy little beast. Thanks for suggesting it, that one's on my maybe list for sure.

Yeah, if you use Audyssey, it's best to leave any of the EQ off aside from Reference. Dynamic EQ and all that...off.

[oddbox83]

So, to boil it all down, I’ll stick with my Focals but perhaps use my money instead to buy a sub like one suggested with the SVS isolation feet. Does that sound like a good plan for my various issues?

[CreasyBear]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

So, to boil it all down, I’ll stick with my Focals but perhaps use my money instead to buy a sub like one suggested with the SVS isolation feet. Does that sound like a good plan for my various issues?

Yeah, since you can't really go with full bookshelves or towers, the Focals seem like a great call, but you need better low end, so either SVS will be a huge improvement. If you can fit a PB1000, I'd go with that, especially for movies, but the SB1000 is no slouch based on what I've heard.

[Scarriere]

I bought one set of those isolation feet to try 'em and liked them so much that I bought two more sets for my other subwoofers.

[oddbox83]

I’ve spent some time reading up on these subs and wider theory and have pretty much decided on the SB1000 with isolation feet upgrade.

I just need to run this past you guys again - this is definitely going to be a big upgrade over the Focal Cub, giving me better bass but with less travelling and boomy bass?

It’s just a little more reassurance I need before blowing the cash because it’s hard to shake that common misconception an expensive sub is all about the room shaking bass which I don’t want and can’t have for the neighbours.

I’ve got another thing to add - my calibrated setting in the receiver is +8.5dB for the sub and the sub volume was set at the recommended 50% during calibration. I gather this is just extra proof the Cub is no good for me and causing some of the issues I want to avoid? A sub with more power than I need is better than one that is needing boosting by the AVR, correct?

[CreasyBear]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

I’ve spent some time reading up on these subs and wider theory and have pretty much decided on the SB1000 with isolation feet upgrade.

I just need to run this past you guys again - this is definitely going to be a big upgrade over the Focal Cub, giving me better bass but with less travelling and boomy bass?

It’s just a little more reassurance I need before blowing the cash because it’s hard to shake that common misconception an expensive sub is all about the room shaking bass which I don’t want and can’t have for the neighbours.

Yes, the SB1000 will be a massive improvement. I guarantee you you'll hear tighter bass, notes you hadn't heard previously, and your room will not shake and the sound won't be boomy.

I’ve got another thing to add - my calibrated setting in the receiver is +8.5dB for the sub and the sub volume was set at the recommended 50% during calibration. I gather this is just extra proof the Cub is no good for me and causing some of the issues I want to avoid? A sub with more power than I need is better than one that is needing boosting by the AVR, correct?

Well, now I understand why the Cub was boomy and rattling. In general, you shouldn't be going above 0db. The Cub isn't powerful enough to play with authority the way you're wanting and by simply turning up the gain in the receiver, you're asking the Cub to perform outside of its range and it can't keep up. Turn it to 0db in the receiver, but adjust the volume on the Cub itself. Either way, it won't perform up to what you're expecting. The SB1000 will, absolutely. Run your auto-calibration again after you get the subwoofer. Put the SB1000 at 50% volume. Turn the LPF on the SB1000 all the way to LFE. After running calibration, set the crossover to 80-100hz for the speakers. Then adjust the volume on the SB1000 up or down depending on where you want it. Make sure to turn off any Dynamic Range Compression, Cinema EQ, and Dynamic Volume, whatever your receiver has, but use the main EQ the calibration gave you, if you like it.

[oddbox83]

Huge thanks for your help.

In hindsight I should have recalibrated with the sub volume higher, but there’s no point now. I’m sold on the SB1000 Pro.

This is not where I expected to be going with my first post but there ya go.

[Scarriere]

You've given some excellent advice CreasyBear! oddbox83 won't have any regrets at all.

oddbox83, the SB-1000 has an app similar to one of my Paradigm subs and it should be excellent.
A big thing that I like about the app control is keeping the sub at -14 ( I've already run ARC calibration) for music but then running the sub hot at -11 for movies. Changing on the fly is handy.
I'm certain that you're gonna love that subwoofer.
There's another member here that bought a 1000 and liked it so much that he bought another one. I don't recall if they were PB or SB.

[oddbox83]

So basically, the Cub just doesn't have the power my Denon X2500H is expecting at the recommended 50% gain level, hence Audyssey massively overcompensating? I guess this is common with "bundle" subs fed by a decent AVR?

[CreasyBear]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

So basically, the Cub just doesn't have the power my Denon X2500H is expecting at the recommended 50% gain level, hence Audyssey massively overcompensating? I guess this is common with "bundle" subs fed by a decent AVR?

Some speaker bundles are quite good, like your Focal's, but the subwoofers almost always are a waste of money. Always better to go with a bigger quality subwoofer that can really perform.

[oddbox83]

Originally Posted by CreasyBear

Some speaker bundles are quite good, like your Focal's, but the subwoofers almost always are a waste of money. Always better to go with a bigger quality subwoofer that can really perform.

Interestingly I just came across a forum post elsewhere from someone who had a Cub with a Denon receiver slightly more recent than mine, and autocal was setting it at +12dB in their case. Said they tried a SVS SB2000 and it was night and day!

Not that I need any more convincing after this thread, but it looks like I've been living with a piece of crap and never realised before now.

I've got a new sofa coming this Wednesday and am going to make some other tweaks with the room's furniture, so the timing is spot on for a new sub and recalibration.