Eternals 4K UHD (2021)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by isolar801

From mediainfo....the culprit.
Mastering display luminance : min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 1000 cd/m2

Max luminance is way too low...for reference Mad Max Fury Road was 9919 max !! That's crazy, but it does point to why this is so dim.
My encode is almost done...

Bollocks mate. 1000 nits peak is still 75% of the available PQ signal, it tells you nothing of the sort as to "why this is so dim". Besides, that's just the MASTERING DISPLAY specs and has nothing to do with what the content actually contains, which would be MaxFALL (maximum brightest average frame in the entire film) and MaxCLL (single brightest pixel in the entire film), and even those figures are flawed which may be why Disnee rarely includes them with their HDR10 mastering.

(In case lgans is wondering why I detest the whole homebrew HDR remastering scene, THIS is why: people doing them who don't actually have a clue about HDR.)

[isolar801]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Bollocks mate. 1000 nits peak is still 75% of the available PQ signal, it tells you nothing of the sort as to "why this is so dim". Besides, that's just the MASTERING DISPLAY specs and has nothing to do with what the content actually contains, which would be MaxFALL (maximum brightest average frame in the entire film) and MaxCLL (single brightest pixel in the entire film), and even those figures are flawed which may be why Disnee rarely includes them with their HDR10 mastering.

(In case lgans is wondering why I detest the whole homebrew HDR remastering scene, THIS is why: people doing them who don't actually have a clue about HDR.)

Hey, Im learning...not in the habit of fixing HDR discs !!

That's why I deleted that...Most discs have a 1000 max. They do hide the important specs...for whatever reason.
The Incredible Hulk has a MaxFALL of 915.....The Dark Knight has a MaxFALL of 500....wonder what this one is....

Anyhow...I learned a lot doing this...going to look at my encode vrs. the 4K vrs. the Blu and let my Dune play with them all on various settings with the Dolby VS10 engine...

OK...Im happy. The encode looks better than either the straight 4K and the 1080p Blu. All I did was re-encode to BT2020 using h265 10 bit 1080p to trigger HDR mode on my Dune.
On each version I jumped to 50 percent which is the scene of Icarus being attacked and eyebeaming the Deviant in the forest. The yellow eye beams popped on the encode...very nicely.
Then to be fair I ran all three versions in HDR10, SDR and Dolby Vision to see if any version improved or suffered.
End result was my encode looked the best using HDR10. I've had about enough of this now.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

You're right! I keep forgetting that each TV has it's own way of tone mapping regular HDR10. I get that each brand has it's own way of tone mapping, but I don't understand why we haven't had a "standard" made so that all TVs would see about the same thing (minus whatever company adds to their TVs that's their features).

You and me both, it's baffling why this was left up to TV manufacturers to decide as its resulted in the biggest cluster**** that the home video/electronics industry has ever seen, particularly with all the disgracefully poor "HDR" sets that are technically compatible with such signals but are so technologically incontinent that the "HDR" looks worse than SDR in every respect.

I mean, yes, manufacturers ALL want to do their own thing, add their own special sauce, I get that, but why not have an industry standard mapper in there as well as whatever dodginess the respective manufacturers want to implement? Idiots, the lot of 'em.

[isolar801]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You and me both, it's baffling why this was left up to TV manufacturers to decide as its resulted in the biggest cluster**** that the home video/electronics industry has ever seen, particularly with all the disgracefully poor "HDR" sets that are technically compatible with such signals but are so technologically incontinent that the "HDR" looks worse than SDR in every respect.

I mean, yes, manufacturers ALL want to do their own thing, add their own special sauce, I get that, but why not have an industry standard mapper in there as well as whatever dodginess the respective manufacturers want to implement? Idiots, the lot of 'em.

That's so right....I brought this up on AVS forums (Im sure many others have too) about a year and a half ago and it turned into quite the battle.
There is no standard...everybody does whatever they want with HDR with wildly varying results.
Yet there are those who believe that it is all set in stone. So far it's all marketing ploys to grab those bucks...or pounds. Sometimes we get good results...Sometimes we don't.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by isolar801

That's so right....I brought this up on AVS forums (Im sure many others have too) about a year and a half ago and it turned into quite the battle.
There is no standard...everybody does whatever they want with HDR with wildly varying results.
Yet there are those who believe that it is all set in stone. So far it's all marketing ploys to grab those bucks...or pounds. Sometimes we get good results...Sometimes we don't.

As an actual transfer function in a mastering suite it IS set in stone. There’s a standard and everything as defined by SMPTE (ST.2084). The problem with perceptions of HDR are twofold: 1) the appalling lack of standardisation at the playback end, where shortcomings in the physical display tech and/or the internal processing can make the same piece of content look VASTLY different, and 2) the depressing quest for “pop” (ugh) that some people are on.

[lgans316]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Bollocks mate. 1000 nits peak is still 75% of the available PQ signal, it tells you nothing of the sort as to "why this is so dim". Besides, that's just the MASTERING DISPLAY specs and has nothing to do with what the content actually contains, which would be MaxFALL (maximum brightest average frame in the entire film) and MaxCLL (single brightest pixel in the entire film), and even those figures are flawed which may be why Disnee rarely includes them with their HDR10 mastering.

(In case lgans is wondering why I detest the whole homebrew HDR remastering scene, THIS is why: people doing them who don't actually have a clue about HDR.)

We do admire your knowledge and inputs in this space.

You also need to acknowledge people have to start their journey somewhere. Some of them could be learning and experimenting.

When I started my journey on Azure Cloud for work I had zero idea about it and fast forward few months later, I have some decent knowledge.

Saying these guys are clueless about HDR is not right. What if the Studio won't release our favourite movies on physical on 4K HDR? Taking the BD and trying to elevate it using tools is not necessarily bad. I always believe something is better than nothing as life is too short. Patience is virtue but it's also worth experimenting to achieve self satisfaction when your patience won't be rewarded.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by lgans316

We do admire your knowledge and inputs in this space.

You also need to acknowledge people have to start their journey somewhere. Some of them could be learning and experimenting.

When I started my journey on Azure Cloud for work I had zero idea about it and fast forward few months later, I have some decent knowledge.

Saying these guys are clueless about HDR is not right. What if the Studio won't release our favourite movies on physical on 4K HDR? Taking the BD and trying to elevate it using tools is not necessarily bad. I always believe something is better than nothing as life is too short. Patience is virtue but it's also worth experimenting to achieve self satisfaction when your patience won't be rewarded.

There’s another word for self satisfaction that comes to mind whenever I look at homebrew HDR stuff or people forcing HDR on everything just to make it “pop” (ugh).

Look, if they want to put hot sauce on everything at breakfast lunch and dinner just to make sure they’re getting full value from their tastebuds then they’re welcome to do so, but other flavours are available. Some are going to be a bit bland every now and then but life is also about those contrasts, not every meal is going to be some gourmet five-star experience, and not every meal has to be.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to know the ingredients and the recipe, it’s why I know all the useless junk that I do, but the reason most homebrew HDR graders do what they do is because they think they know better than the chef who made it and are all about that hot sauce. I love a dab of it in moderation, but too much gives me ulcers.

[isolar801]

I freaking hate hot sauce...anyhow, I made Eternals look far better and now know what makes HDR brighter or dimmer in the file.
I call yesterday a win.
As someone who has been encoding for many many years, doing anything with HDR/DV is very new.....only in the past 9 months can we have DV in an MKV file.....outside of professional editing programs, we couldn't do anything with HDR. Now we can.

Obviously with this Eternals disc, no one at evil Disney gives two shakes about what they are dishing out...why should they?
Ultimately they want your 20 bucks a month for their god awful streaming service and want to see the end of physical media. Maybe they made this disc so bad on purpose...the last straw for a disc buyer.
Poor Disney HDR/DV quality is what sparked many discussions of no standards surrounding HDR...even though there are standards. They just made sure that "HDR/DV" popped up on the set you bought (like Atmos) and their job was done, you got what you paid for...even though it sucked big time.
I appreciate input from all here. I learn something everyday even at my advanced age !

[Sky_Captain]

Originally Posted by isolar801

I made Eternals look far better...

You turned it off?

[isolar801]

Originally Posted by Sky_Captain

You turned it off?

What's ironic is I never had any intention of ever watching it again..today I get to have fun editing Boba Fett out of his own show.

[ntotoro]

Originally Posted by isolar801

What's ironic is I never had any intention of ever watching it again..today I get to have fun editing Boba Fett out of his own show.

Ironically (or not) the last two episodes of Boba Fett (which have been Boba-Lite or Boba-Free) have been the best two.

[isolar801]

Originally Posted by ntotoro

Ironically (or not) the last two episodes of Boba Fett (which have been Boba-Lite or Boba-Free) have been the best two.

It ironic for sure...sad most definitely....

Just looked at the new one...turns out it is Mando pre-season Episode 2 after last weeks pre-season Episode 1
No editing needed.....almost no Boba and Raylen Freakin' Givens returns !!!!

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You and me both, it's baffling why this was left up to TV manufacturers to decide as its resulted in the biggest cluster**** that the home video/electronics industry has ever seen, particularly with all the disgracefully poor "HDR" sets that are technically compatible with such signals but are so technologically incontinent that the "HDR" looks worse than SDR in every respect.

I mean, yes, manufacturers ALL want to do their own thing, add their own special sauce, I get that, but why not have an industry standard mapper in there as well as whatever dodginess the respective manufacturers want to implement? Idiots, the lot of 'em.

Couldn't agree more!! I know that regular blu-ray/HD sets had their own differences as well based on the manufacturer and how much money you spend on the TV (the higher, the better usually) but with HDR sets, the differences are quite stark at times as you have described.

The majority of the time, SDR blu-rays on most sets when calibrated looked pretty much identical, which is the whole purpose why one gets their TV calibrated. However with HDR sets even with a calibrated set, you still could be seeing something different than another person because of the ways in which manufacturers implement their tone mapping of HDR content.

A good example you said earlier, LG HDR TV sets will look at the mastering display and try to tone map the content from there, hence the dimmer look since it's trying to tone map everything without blowing out the highlights. The only solution to brighten the image up is use DTM (on HDR10 content only) and although the majority of the time it is almost spot on, it does have its inaccuracies and might be brighter or darker than the intended image. Then of course if the disc has Dolby Vision, you could go that route. But the ASBL/TPC issues come about with very dark/dim scenes, so Dolby Vision is out of the question. So if you have an LG TV, you pretty much are in a pickle.

Sony and Panasonic on the other hand seem to have gotten a good hold on how to maintain good APL while not blowing out the highlights. It's crazy to see the big differences between manufacturers!

[Socko]

The review is up and it doesn't look that impressive.
This might be the tipping point for me whether I will keep on buying Disney discs or not, since their streaming counterpart gives us an equal viewing experience.

Take Shang-Chi for instance:
Two versions of the film
Dolby Vision
And all the extras that are on the disc

Why on earth would I get the disc?
Audio wise they aren't doing that well lately, so that's not an argument to get the disc.
Higher videobitrate is the only thing that would matter, but I hardly see the difference.

I bought the Eternals because Salma Hayek is in it and I buy ALL of her movies.

[lgans316]

Originally Posted by Socko

The review is up and it doesn't look that impressive.
This might be the tipping point for me whether I will keep on buying Disney discs or not, since their streaming counterpart gives us an equal viewing experience.

Take Shang-Chi for instance:
Two versions of the film
Dolby Vision
And all the extras that are on the disc

Why on earth would I get the disc?
Audio wise they aren't doing that well lately, so that's not an argument to get the disc.
Higher videobitrate is the only thing that would matter, but I hardly see the difference.

I bought the Eternals because Salma Hayek is in it and I buy ALL of her movies.

My policy is get the disc when it's in 2 for £24 offer. Once again I do this to keep my MCU collection in tact.

Personally the differences are very minor even on my bigger OLED from 8.5 feet distance. I am not going to bury my head on the TV and whinge about every artifact as at times I want to enjoy the movie unless it's blatant DNR/EE like seen in Middle Earth which really puts me off Not a big deal with Disney movies which are now shot digitally and don't require super high bit rates to make it look better.

Like many of us learning to live with Covid, I have learned to live with these occasional minor issues as long as the +ves outweighs the -ves.

[Hedrox]

Ever since they've stopped releasing these in 3D, which is the only thing Disney+ (or any steaming service for that matter) can't offer, I see not reason to keep buying MCU titles on disc.

And yeah, there is of course the JP release, but ignoring the ridiculous price, you'd still need to mess around with them and add the missing forced subtitles.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by Socko

The review is up and it doesn't look that impressive.
This might be the tipping point for me whether I will keep on buying Disney discs or not, since their streaming counterpart gives us an equal viewing experience.

Take Shang-Chi for instance:
Two versions of the film
Dolby Vision
And all the extras that are on the disc

Why on earth would I get the disc?
Audio wise they aren't doing that well lately, so that's not an argument to get the disc.
Higher videobitrate is the only thing that would matter, but I hardly see the difference.

I bought the Eternals because Salma Hayek is in it and I buy ALL of her movies.

Originally Posted by Hedrox

Ever since they've stopped releasing these in 3D, which is the only thing Disney+ (or any steaming service for that matter) can't offer, I see not reason to keep buying MCU titles on disc.

And yeah, there is of course the JP release, but ignoring the ridiculous price, you'd still need to mess around with them and add the missing forced subtitles.

Essentially though, the HDR10 disc should be about the same as the Dolby Vision version of the film on Disney + since HDR10 makes up the core of the Dolby Vision Version. The only difference is the dynamic metadata for Dolby Vision vs. the static metadata of the HDR10 disc.

Depending on your TV's brand, the HDR10 disc could look exactly like the Dolby Vision version or it might be dimmer. Like with LG TVs, it looks at the mastering display and tries to tone map the movie from there. Hence why the majority of films look dimmer in HDR10. None the less, using your TVs built in DTM can bring you as close to the Dolby Vision version as possible. Of course there are some inaccuracies at times, specifically with LG's DTM, biut overall you are going to get close.

As to the different versions (ie IMAX Enhanced), it's not really a big deal. The majority of these MCU films were intended to be seen in scope aspect ratio. The IMAX Enhanced versions 3/4ths of the time look weird and not intended. Infinity War and Endgame are the only 2 that make sense but the rest can be watched in their proper, scope ratio.

Now I do agree with the audio of the Disney films lately. They are lacking. However, I have this feeling it's due to Disney +. These sound designers at Disney have probably been given the "the majority of people listen through their TV speakers or soundbars, so let's just cut back on the audio" type of speech from Disney Executives to cut costs. It's ridiculous because sound is part of the movie, part of the experience. And cutting back on it just makes things unbalanced and not what it should be.

[Jeyl]

From this site's review,

- The HDR color grading certainly renders the movie appearing darker, darker in even brighter exteriors and well-lit interiors and far darker in low light interiors.
- the UHD appears so much darker that, compared to the Blu-ray, almost all of the background is absorbed and Sersi's black hair almost blends into the darkness.
- a narratively darker tone.
- Audiences will enjoy superior costume and facial clarity, assuming the picture is not so dark as to render the upgrades nearly unobservable.
- Regardless of how dark it might look
- Disney's UHD does look good, though it's very dark.

Well, this doesn't sound promising. I dodged the 'Arrival' UHD when I heard the transfer was way darker than the blu-ray was so it looks like the 4K of Eternals is now on my avoid list.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Jeyl

From this site's review,

- The HDR color grading certainly renders the movie appearing darker, darker in even brighter exteriors and well-lit interiors and far darker in low light interiors.
- the UHD appears so much darker that, compared to the Blu-ray, almost all of the background is absorbed and Sersi's black hair almost blends into the darkness.
- a narratively darker tone.
- Audiences will enjoy superior costume and facial clarity, assuming the picture is not so dark as to render the upgrades nearly unobservable.
- Regardless of how dark it might look
- Disney's UHD does look good, though it's very dark.

Well, this doesn't sound promising. I dodged the 'Arrival' UHD when I heard the transfer was way darker than the blu-ray was so it looks like the 4K of Eternals is now on my avoid list.

Arrival's HDR transfer is certainly a wee bit darker than the BD, but anyone registering it as 'way darker' is likely watching it with the curtains flung wide open at midday or/and the tone mapping/ASBL on their TV is flattening the brightness.

I dare say that the same will apply to Eternals, that in real terms it's not drastically darker than the SDR when SDR is viewed at the intended 120 nits peak in an optimal viewing environment , but all these things plus SDR potentially being set to torch mode is going to drastically skew how the HDR is interpreted.

That's a lot of waffle to basically say "yes, it's still darker" but there's a difference between the "OMG I can't see anything it's so dark" comments and what it actually looks like. That's not what's happening with Eternals yet, but it was certainly the case with Arrival. And Goodfeathers.

[lgans316]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Arrival's HDR transfer is certainly a wee bit darker than the BD, but anyone registering it as 'way darker' is likely watching it with the curtains flung wide open at midday or/and the tone mapping/ASBL on their TV is flattening the brightness.

I dare say that the same will apply to Eternals, that in real terms it's not drastically darker than the SDR when SDR is viewed at the intended 120 nits peak in an optimal viewing environment , but all these things plus SDR potentially being set to torch mode is going to drastically skew how the HDR is interpreted.

That's a lot of waffle to basically say "yes, it's still darker" but there's a difference between the "OMG I can't see anything it's so dark" comments and what it actually looks like. That's not what's happening with Eternals yet, but it was certainly the case with Arrival. And Goodfeathers.

Personally Arrival UHD destroys the BD for me and I see it as a textbook example of the subtle benefits UHD (HDR) as a format brings over the BD (SDR).

I am not sure about Eternals BD VS 4K but it does have this darker look (low APL) with some greyish blacks which does look dull and boring at times. HDR is restrained as well but overall it's definitely watchable. I am sure it's how the filmmakers wanted but not everyone will like this which is understandable and at the same time we can't expect everything to shine and pop just like our own miserable lives where we can't be happy all the time.

If its too dark then Dolby Vision Bright certainly helps.

Will be interesting when The Heat and Edge of Tomorrow are released on 4K UHD if they are sourced from the same masters.