Oh noes teh sky is falling!

[Hobbit1979]

I've made a post yesterday about blurays that go bad. I guess I put it at the wrong place. So I will copy paste it here for some help.

That's the thread's link
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=350668

And that's the post

I played the movie in my new LG 4k player for the first time. It froze at chapter 21, struggled a lot and resumed play at chapter 23 as if the disc had some damage. I have the movie in my collection for some time. That was the 4th time I watched it. The previous 3 in my old bluray player (still working) went great with the exception of one time when the movie froze at chapter 21 for only one second but resumed play right away (no skip) without any other problems.

So I thought there was a issue with my new 4k player. The back of the disc is flawless, zero damage of any kind. I cleaned it just in case, very carefully. Same result.
Then I tried to play the disc at my old bluray player. As I said I played the movie there 3 times in the past with no major problems. But not this time. The same thing happened, even the old player for some reason, this time around can't play chapters 21 and 22. Resumed play at chapted 23 after a lot of struggle, exactly as it happened at my 4k player. I tried it 2-3 time again after 5 minuted on both players. Exactly the same results.

I don't get it. How that happened? The disc has no damage, nothing, it's perfectly clear. The 3 previous time played ok (with that minor, one second, exception). Why does the disc has that problem all of the sudden? It's been 3 years since the last time I played the movie. The disc remained at the self safe and sound. What could have happened???

Never had a similar problem is the past with any of my discs, and I rewatch my movies often



To summarise a bluray movie (Ben Hur 2011 release) went bad. No disc damage (scratches or something like that).

It seems very weird to me that this disc was ok for more than 6 years since I bought it and suddenly went bad. 11 years since release doesn't seem like such a long time too me. I mean you can't still find this edition at the stores.

I do have a small problem with humidity at my house during winter. Nothing too extreme and I do try to protect the discs any way I can. Never had a CD or a DVD go bad so far (and i have everything stored at the same room) for more than 25 years collecting physical media of any kind. It happend with a bluray.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Lastly, Polycarbonate plastic has "excellent" compatibility with isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol). See the chart in this article, specifically this line item: "Alcohols: Isopropyl." This detailed chart lists the compatibility of polycarbonate plastic with a wide variety of chemicals.

Thanks for that chart link.

You do realize that isopropyl alcohol is sold in plastic bottles, right? Namely High-Density Polyethylene #2. The type of plastic matters and both HDPE 2 and Polycarbonate have excellent compatibility with isopropyl alcohol.

One of my thoughts as well.

For quad and helical video heads Ampex recommended Freon TF as the cleaning agent. This not a recommendation because I may be remembering TF as the wrong one. IIRC, the Freon boiling point was much lower than isopropyl alcohol was their reason. We used industrial lint free cloths flooded to several layers and even then one had to wet the cloth two or three times just to clean a quad video drum because the Freon would evaporate so quickly.

First pair of coated plastic eyeglasses. I asked about cleaning and the person gave some recommendations. He assured me the coating was tough and could even be cleaned with lacquer thinner. A few years later I got something on one lens that soap, glass cleaner and alcohol would not remove. Not having anything to lose I tried lacquer thinner and it removed the substance with no ill effects.

Not going to use lacquer thinner on my disc even tho I may try on a recordable CD just to see what happens.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Thanks for that chart link.

[Show spoiler]One of my thoughts as well.

For quad and helical video heads Ampex recommended Freon TF as the cleaning agent. This not a recommendation because I may be remembering TF as the wrong one. IIRC, the Freon boiling point was much lower than isopropyl alcohol was their reason. We used industrial lint free cloths flooded to several layers and even then one had to wet the cloth two or three times just to clean a quad video drum because the Freon would evaporate so quickly.

First pair of coated plastic eyeglasses. I asked about cleaning and the person gave some recommendations. He assured me the coating was tough and could even be cleaned with lacquer thinner. A few years later I got something on one lens that soap, glass cleaner and alcohol would not remove. Not having anything to lose I tried lacquer thinner and it removed the substance with no ill effects.

Not going to use lacquer thinner on my disc even tho I may try on a recordable CD just to see what happens.

In addition to that chart, I have confirmed twice now with my friend (who has a Ph.D in organic chemistry) that polycarbonate plastic, which our discs are made with, has excellent compatibility with isopropyl alcohol.

For anyone that might be interested here again is that link to the "Polycarbonate Chemical Compatibility Chart."

https://www.calpaclab.com/polycarbon...ibility-chart/

[Vilya]

Additionally, a number of plastics dealers recommend a product called "Novus #1" to clean polycarbonate plastic. Here's one example:

"For proper cleaning and care of your polycarbonate sheets, we recommend Novus #1 cleaner and a soft cloth."

https://www.acplasticsinc.com/inform...-cleaning-care



Guess what Novus 1 cleaner contains as the cleaning agent? That's right: isopropyl alcohol.

[Show spoiler]Novus1Ingredients.jpg

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/doc..._448pn7020.pdf

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Not going to use lacquer thinner on my disc even tho I may try on a recordable CD just to see what happens.

Tried lacquer thinner on the CD and as expected, instant plastic melting. Same for acetone.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Hobbit1979

[Show spoiler]I've made a post yesterday about blurays that go bad. I guess I put it at the wrong place. So I will copy paste it here for some help.

That's the thread's link
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=350668

And that's the post

I played the movie in my new LG 4k player for the first time. It froze at chapter 21, struggled a lot and resumed play at chapter 23 as if the disc had some damage. I have the movie in my collection for some time. That was the 4th time I watched it. The previous 3 in my old bluray player (still working) went great with the exception of one time when the movie froze at chapter 21 for only one second but resumed play right away (no skip) without any other problems.

So I thought there was a issue with my new 4k player. The back of the disc is flawless, zero damage of any kind. I cleaned it just in case, very carefully. Same result.
Then I tried to play the disc at my old bluray player. As I said I played the movie there 3 times in the past with no major problems. But not this time. The same thing happened, even the old player for some reason, this time around can't play chapters 21 and 22. Resumed play at chapted 23 after a lot of struggle, exactly as it happened at my 4k player. I tried it 2-3 time again after 5 minuted on both players. Exactly the same results.

I don't get it. How that happened? The disc has no damage, nothing, it's perfectly clear. The 3 previous time played ok (with that minor, one second, exception). Why does the disc has that problem all of the sudden? It's been 3 years since the last time I played the movie. The disc remained at the self safe and sound. What could have happened???

Never had a similar problem is the past with any of my discs, and I rewatch my movies often

To summarise a bluray movie (Ben Hur 2011 release) went bad. No disc damage (scratches or something like that).

[Show spoiler]It seems very weird to me that this disc was ok for more than 6 years since I bought it and suddenly went bad. 11 years since release doesn't seem like such a long time too me.

I mean you can't still find this edition at the stores.

[Show spoiler]I do have a small problem with humidity at my house during winter. Nothing too extreme and I do try to protect the discs any way I can. Never had a CD or a DVD go bad so far (and i have everything stored at the same room) for more than 25 years collecting physical media of any kind. It happend with a bluray.

You can always try to clean the disc; you have nothing to lose.

I assume that you have this edition?



As the disc that is giving you trouble is the actual movie disc you can also easily replace it should cleaning attempts fail. Buy the standard edition blu-ray, namely this one that came out at the same time:



The movie discs are the same in either edition. The standard edition only costs $6.99 at Amazon.

Another option would be to email Warner Bros. (whv@wb.com) and tell them what happened and ask for a replacement disc. Sometimes Warner Bros. will replace a defective disc for free no matter how long you have owned it. They have done this for me on occasion and they might for you, too. Just don't expect them to do anything fast.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Tried lacquer thinner on the CD and as expected, instant plastic melting. Same for acetone.

Well, that compatibility chart did say that acetone would have a severe effect.

[Wendell R. Breland]

For me, a recap of disc cleaning:

• Use a mild soap and water
• Use isopropyl alcohol as an alternate (I use 99.9%)
• Dry with a clean microfiber cloth (I also use Bounty paper towels but they can leave residue requiring a re-cleaning)
• Use compressed air for light dust particles (I use one of these). I would not blow on a disc from my mouth.

Do not use lacquer thinner, acetone, nail polish remover, products with ammonia (Windex)

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

For me, a recap of disc cleaning:

• Use a mild soap and water
• Use isopropyl alcohol as an alternate (I use 99.9%)
• Dry with a clean microfiber cloth (I also use Bounty paper towels but they can leave residue requiring a re-cleaning)
• Use compressed air for light dust particles (I use one of these). I would not blow on a disc from my mouth.

Do not use lacquer thinner, acetone, nail polish remover, products with ammonia (Windex)

I agree with all of that except the drying with paper towels. I only use a clean microfiber cloth to dry a disc. Paper towels can scratch the disc and they can leave paper debris on it necessitating another cleaning.

I looked at the prices for that Novus #1 cleaner; it sells for $8.90 for an 8 oz. bottle at Amazon. It uses isopropyl alcohol >99% as its cleaning agent, but the other ingredients are water and two silicones diluting it down to what I do not know.

Regardless, it would be cheaper just to buy the isopropyl alcohol. Even the fancy medical grade isopropyl alcohol at 99.9% is a better value with a full quart costing just $12.90. In my own personal experience the super cheap 70% and 91% solutions work just fine, too.

[kfbkfb]

https://www.sleevecityusa.com/8-oz-p...cdphxkit-8.htm

I ordered this stuff recently after reading this thread, I clean my used optical discs once before the 1st playing, I rarely have to clean new optical discs (sometimes I notice a fingerprint on them when I look them over before the 1st playing).


Kirk Bayne

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by kfbkfb

https://www.sleevecityusa.com/8-oz-p...cdphxkit-8.htm

I ordered this stuff recently after reading this thread, I clean my used optical discs once before the 1st playing, I rarely have to clean new optical discs (sometimes I notice a fingerprint on them when I look them over before the 1st playing).


Kirk Bayne

I'm not familiar with that product, but it probably works fine. I could not find out what is in it from doing a quick search. I don't think that you need to spend that much, though.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by slimjean

Wasn't the so called point already made?

Long reply ahead.

You have changed your post so many times that the portions that I have quoted no longer link back to you! I can't blame you; I wouldn't want to claim ownership of them, either.

We have two manufacturers/ dealers of polycarbonate plastic that state that isopropyl alcohol is perfectly compatible with polycarbonate and one that recommends a cleaning product for polycarbonate plastic, Novus 1, whose active ingredient IS isopropyl alcohol.

https://www.calpaclab.com/polycarbon...ibility-chart/
^shows what chemicals are compatible, and which are incompatible, with polycarbonate plastic. Isopropyl alcohol has "excellent compatibility" with polycarbonate.

https://www.acplasticsinc.com/inform...-cleaning-care
^Manufacturer/dealer of polycarbonate plastic that recommends Novus 1 plastic cleaner (active ingredient: isopropyl alcohol)

https://www.novuspolish.com/plastic_clean_shine.html
https://www.novuspolish.com/uses.html
^ the very first items that they recommend usage of this product for: DVDs, CDs, etc.

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/doc..._448pn7020.pdf

^Ingredients of Novus 1 (isopropyl alcohol is the cleaning agent)

All of the above are factual documented proof that isopropyl alcohol is safe to use to clean a polycarbonate plastic disc.

I have confirmed twice with an actual doctorate holding organic chemist that isopropyl alcohol has excellent compatibility with polycarbonate plastic.

I also have 40 years of personal experience using ordinary over the counter isopropyl alcohol, both 70% and 91%, as needed, to clean CDs, DVDs, and blu-rays when soap and water failed. None of my discs have ever become brittle, never have they cracked, and never have they become delaminated afterwards.

Originally Posted by slimjean

Alcohol with an organic will break it down over time.

No one is exposing their discs to isopropyl alcohol, or any other liquids, for any significant amount of time. No one is soaking them in a jar like a barber does with his scissors and combs. The contact with ANY liquid when cleaning a disc is typically a matter of seconds.

If isopropyl alcohol damaged discs over time, products like Novus 1, whose active ingredient IS isopropyl alcohol, would have failed long ago. Manufacturers of polycarbonate would not recommend its usage, either. I would have stopped using isopropyl alcohol long ago myself. So would have Wendell. I have never lost a disc because I cleaned it with isopropyl alcohol. If I had, I would not continue to use it. I'm not a masochist, present company notwithstanding.

Wendell, whom you quoted, gave his cleaning recommendations and they include using isopropyl alcohol. He has decades of experience as a "Technical Services Supervisor for 34 years for the statewide public broadcasting system." The quote is from his signature. He knows that of which he speaks.

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

For me, a recap of disc cleaning:

Use a mild soap and water

Use isopropyl alcohol as an alternate (I use 99.9%)

Dry with a clean microfiber cloth (I also use Bounty paper towels but they can leave residue requiring a re-cleaning)

Use compressed air for light dust particles

He would not recommend using anything unsafe to clean our discs nor would I. I would add rinse the disc with water after using isopropyl alcohol and then dry the disc with a clean microfiber cloth, never with paper towels.

I would not have continued to use isopropyl alcohol to clean discs if doing so resulted in damage. No one is that stupid.


None of your many posts have offered even a single link to any documentation that supports your baseless claims to the contrary. All we have is your "opinion" versus all of the above documented facts and shared experiences.

You do not know better than two companies that make/sell polycarbonate plastic; you do not know better than a company that makes cleaners for plastics; you do not know better than an organic chemist with a Ph.D; and you do not know better than the combined experiences of forum members who have been buying and cleaning discs for far longer than you have.

Originally Posted by slimjean

You would think with all the data on these boards that it is obvious that consistency of the physical is the problem.

You speak of data and you provide not a single link supporting anything that you claim. Not even once. A scientist, which you claim to be, always provides proof. It's reflexive to them; it comes naturally.

Originally Posted by slimjean

But hey want to brag to the highest mountain how smart it is to use alcohol a known oxidizer on a glued plastic platter...go for it.

If companies that make and sell polycarbonate plastics recommend cleaners with isopropyl alcohol as the active ingredient, then that tells *most* of us all that we need to know. These cleaners contain 99%+ isopropyl alcohol as their active ingredient, but they also contain water and silicones; they are not "pure" isopropyl alcohol. My personal experience using isopropyl alcohol to clean stubborn discs over a period of four decades confirms their recommendations. I never have had a disc delaminate as a result of using ordinary 70%, or 91%, isopropyl alcohol to clean it. Not once. Not ever.

If soap and water fail to solve the problem, logic alone dictates that trying something else carries no risk.

I only use isopropyl alcohol when soap and water fail; trying something else proven to work seems very prudent to me. The manufacturers/ distributors of polycarbonate recommend it, Wendell recommends it, and I recommend it. If you think just giving up and throwing away the disc makes more sense, then allow me to give you a hat.

Originally Posted by slimjean

Why sit around posting how right one is again?

Because someone keeps posting how WRONG they are, silly goose!

You are the one after all that told us at the start of this conversation that discs were made with "polypoplylene" when polypropylene is what the disc cases are made with. No one with any chemistry expertise would make such an elementary (pun intended ) mistake.

Originally Posted by slimjean

... putting an organic solvent on a polypopylene coating makes no sense.

Originally Posted by slimjean

First of all you are talking to a chemist. My bad on the polypropylene.

No chemist worth his periodic chart would confuse polypropylene with polycarbonate.

[lgans316]

How long it will last depends upon this man

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by slimjean

But of course you know so much better because you found some links vs actually doing the hours getting the credentials right?

Do you really have any credentials? You will not say what they are because you are so paranoid that you think you that can be tracked down if you do.

All scientists that I have ever known ALWAYS provide citations to support whatever they have to say. You steadfastly refuse to do so. I can not recall of a single instance where you have backed-up a single thing that you have had to say, in in this thread or in any other. You make pronouncements from upon high..or more likely while high.

In a nutshell, you proclaim yourself an expert on something and then spout off about it. You always refuse to provide citations or any proof supporting your statements.

If you have proof that what I have said here, and the articles that I linked to, are wrong, then provide that proof. If you have proof that what you say is correct, provide that proof. If what Wendell and I recommended is wrong, then prove it. It is what a real scientist would do.

Provide evidence supporting what you say or pour yourself a nice steaming cup of shut the

[Show spoiler]fudge

up. Real scientists provide real evidence.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by slimjean

I am a private person and I don't share my information for good reasons. You should respect that.

If you were truly military then you understand that some projects are private.

Telling us what degree you hold in what field and from what school will not compromise your privacy.

Never once did I ask about any projects that you may have worked on. I did not ask about your experience, only your education.

Originally Posted by slimjean

As for the rest, what is there to prove? There are a number of reasons why alcohol breaks down polycarbonate.

Real scientists provide proof almost as a reflex. You never provide any. I want to read about those "reasons" from someone who is not afraid to share their credentials.

Originally Posted by slimjean

To explain this in an academic way is like explaining it to a gorilla...

All the more reason to provide citations that substantiate and explain your position.

Originally Posted by slimjean

Are they a chemist AND have close to 5000 optical media? What is their vested interest...?

My friend holds a doctorate in organic chemistry..and repeating this has not compromised her privacy. I have not inventoried her home. She has no "vested interest" in our conversation. I'm pretty certain that she could not care less about what a pair of stubborn jackasses are braying about on a blu-ray forum. She simply confirmed what was said in the very first link that I provided that stated that polycarbonate has excellent compatibility with isopropyl alcohol. Here's the link again so that you may continue to ignore/ undermine it without offering any evidence that refutes it:

https://www.calpaclab.com/polycarbon...ibility-chart/

Originally Posted by slimjean

I was only trying to help, the rest is childish personal attacks.

Comparing me to a gorilla really demonstrates your helpfulness. Would you mind peeling this for me?

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by slimjean

Polycarbonate is not used for good reason. It gets brittle.

Not sure what you mean by this. It is well known that CD,s DVD’s and Blu-rays are manufactured using polycarbonate.

It is hoped that any user pay close attention to the type of alcohol being used. I would not ever use wood alcohol (Methanol, denatured) on my disc.

Methodology: We are talking about applying a cleaner to a disc surface for a short period of time and once cleaned this process should not have to be repeated. I rarely have to clean disc but if soap does not work then I use Zeiss lens cleaner and if that does not work I use isopropyl alcohol.

I do not know the plastics used in professional and consumer audio and video products but in general isopropyl alcohol was the recommended cleaning agent where routine cleaning was needed.

Pretenders: IMO, one of the best cases of pretenders was those trying to pass themselves off as chemical engineers specializing in plastics. The claim - Blu-ray disc were more brittle than CD,s DVD’s and HD DVD’s because of the hard coat. Several provided photos showing small cracks on the outer edge of the disc. Many made statements like this, “my Blu-ray disc would not play so I ejected it and noticed a small crack on the edge of the disc.”

The pretenders never would answer or ignore direct questions about their places of education or what degrees they held. For someone to claim to be a Chemist, at minimum a bachelor's degree would be required. With every post I make one can easily see a short summary about myself. Info also on Facebook and Linkedin (have not updated Linkedin in a long time because I am retired.)

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by slimjean

I do not have a facebook account and I do not share my linkedin profile to just anyone. This does not make me a "pretender". Actually the basic organic reactions should be common knowledge to some that are truly pretending on here.

All the more reason why providing citations should be easy. It's what real scientists do reflexively.

Originally Posted by slimjean

I never once said that optical media are brittle because they are polycarbonate.

Alcohol does make it brittle which is why they are not used for long term storage.

No one has advocated storing their discs in alcohol. Alcohol is typically found in bottles made from HDPE #2 (High Density Polyethylene) because it is a cheaper plastic. Using alcohol to clean a polycarbonate disc does not make the disc "brittle." The Novus 1 plastic cleaner, recommended for usage on optical discs, uses isopropyl alcohol as its active ingredient. Please email them and tell them that they are doing it wrong. Tell them how they are destroying our discs!

https://www.novuspolish.com/uses.html
https://www.webstaurantstore.com/doc..._448pn7020.pdf

Originally Posted by slimjean

Soap is the smarter method...

Non-abrasive dish soap and water is fine when it works. When it doesn't, it is safe and effective to use isopropyl alcohol. The only alternative that you offer to using soap and water when it fails to work is to abandon the disc. That's just dumb.

Originally Posted by slimjean

The way Vilya acts I have no doubt in his stalker ways and if ever I did share there is no way I would do it now.

Why would I, or anyone else, want to find you? I get plenty of you right here. And who started sending private messages to whom here? [U]Who was it that out of the blue insulted another forum member in an unrelated thread and who was never a party to this conversation simply because they had paid me a compliment way back on April 17th? That was all you, buttercup.

Originally Posted by slimjean

Yeah you lost all credibility right there. I have to clean up projectile off my phone now.

I have a diploma from the United States Army Chemical School, Ft. McClellan, Alabama. That doesn't make me a chemist, but how does knowing this help anyone to locate me?

Originally Posted by slimjean

My advice stands and it comes from a graduate in chemistry from an accredited ACS certified university (AS and BS). Where is no one's business.

I'm pretty sure that my friend's doctorate in organic chemistry qualifies her as more of an expert than anyone merely holding an undergraduate degree. Hell, even my high school chemistry teacher had an advanced post graduate degree. I am also confident that the links that I have provided have been authored, or vetted, by chemists with advanced degrees.

Originally Posted by slimjean

P.S. A true pretender will spout off this place and that degree because they have nothing to lose

All the more reason why a real chemist has nothing to lose by providing that very same information. It won't lead anyone to their door.

Pretenders are even more infamous for not providing citations to support their claims.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by slimjean

You are like a child. You scream and cry and prove my point all the more.

Title does not dictate truth. If you actually did the formulation you might know. As it stands you are posing and insulting. I consider the source.

Putting my education and my career work down doesn't change any truth in what I stated.

If any of what you said was true, you could easily document it. Legitimate scientists ALWAYS substantiate their claims. You never have.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by slimjean

Alcohol does make it brittle which is why they are not used for long term storage.

Sorry, but you seemed focused solely what would happen if certain conditions like storing isopropyl alcohol in polycarbonate containers are met. Real world here - on rare occasions isopropyl alcohol on a polycarbonate surface for a few seconds.

Blu-ray and hard coat: IIRC the BDA, via a white paper, talks about coating a BD with a Acrylic resin (plexiglass ?). Novus Plastic Clean and Shine #1 (has some isopropyl alcohol) recommended for Acrylic cleaning.

My advice stands and it comes from a graduate in chemistry from an accredited ACS certified university (AS and BS). Where is no one's business.

Just to be clear, are you saying you have a bachelors degree in chemical engineering?

Seriously?? What chemist doesn't?

In the Army I spent my two years at Fort McClellan (decommissioned) in the Chemical Center and School. Mission how to deploy and use chemical warfare. The most focused: Sarin. Good stuff, a drop will do, has no color, taste or odor. My job - was the NCOIC of the television branch. Yes, at 19 was responsible for operation and maintenance of machines like these:

[Show spoiler]

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

In the Army I spent my two years at Fort McClellan (decommissioned) in the Chemical Center and School. Mission how to deploy and use chemical warfare. The most focused: Sarin. Good stuff, a drop will do, has no color, taste or odor. My job - was the NCOIC of the television branch. Yes, at 19 was responsible for operation and maintenance of machines like these:

[Show spoiler]

There's something that we have in common! I was a MOS54E and I usually ran my company's NBC "cage." The NCO in charge was seldom around. So many fond memories...