8K discussion thread

[Lee A Stewart]

For those that want an 8K disc - are you really going to be happy when the only difference between today's 4K UHD BD will be a resolution hike?

When BD was introduced it wasn't just a resolution hike over DVD. There was an improvement made in the color space: going from Rec. 601 to Rec. 709.

BIG improvements made to 4K UHD-BD: 10 bit color and HDR

But all you're going to see for an 8K disc will be a resolution improvement. And because of the super fine high end - you're going to have to sit a lot closer to your display to see it. A LOT closer.

For a disc format to thrive you'll need millions of adopters. I just don't see it. Nor do many others both here on this Forum and in the industry. And that's why you won't see an 8K disc format. Couple all this to the inability of the studios to resell you all your favorite movies again because of the 100,000+ movies made . . . only about 200 of them were shot in 65mm. Not a big inventory to choose from.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by smoothbutter

I think there will be eventually be 8k discs, but instead of it being a thing in 2026, it could be 2030/2031..... I think the people here saying there is no chance seems way too dramatic

You think video disc will still be anything like a mainstream concern in 10 years’ time? That’s cute. We’re lucky to have gotten 4K disc when we did, any later and the studios wouldn’t have bothered, such is the ubiquity of streaming.

Not that it can’t thrive within its own niche, it’s amazing the amount of stuff we’re getting on 4K at the moment. But the point is that an 8K disc system won’t just spring up out of a hole in the ground, it’ll need various working groups to test codecs, create new copy protection protocols and so on, as well as requiring cooperation from hardware manufacturers to create the players and software manufacturers to create the discs. It’ll cost millions to plan, test and establish, requiring a good couple dozen companies and studios, and that’s assuming that it’s just another extension of the BD format as an actual new disc format is out of the question. We got all that out of the way just in time for 4K UHD, plans were started years before streaming gained the foothold that it did and so 4K disc was too big to stop, in a sense.

But is the appetite there for 8K disc in the industry? The BDA have added 8K recording to the spec but have said there are no active plans for 8K replicated disc. On the hardware side Samsung have stopped making disc spinners COMPLETELY and no other major manufacturer has released a new 4K model in years, while content providers are all scrambling to get a piece of the streaming pie, their focus is on expanding that footprint and not creating another physical disc format.

8K content itself - and by content I don’t mean what someone has recorded for themselves - remains as rare as rocking horse poo, it’s definitely coming for streaming but things like upscales are doubling up. You’d have to contend with both 2K and 4K upscales and without an extra technical incentive like HDR or Atmos - as they already exist on UHD, there’s no HDR 2 or Atmos 2 in the pipeline - then the benefits of 8K start to diminish rapidly. But if it were limited to just 8K native content on disc then that’d be such a tiny pool of material that no-one in the industry would want to spend so much money on creating the format in the first place. Proper catch-22, that.

To me there are just too many obstacles and that’s without factoring in post-pandemic struggles and various other world crises, so all the moving parts that’d be necessary to create 8K disc are grinding to a halt. And I can’t see them starting back up again as the world shifts away from optical media.

[Hydra Spectre]

Originally Posted by puddy77

Thanks for sharing this! It gave me something unexpected when I played it on my Chromecast w/GTV. It's the first YouTube video I've ever seen with a 5.1 soundtrack. Sure, you can rent or buy actual movies on there that have 5.1. But I've never seen a free video on there with 5.1.

Retro gaming YouTube channel Game Sack made a video on the Xbox 360 that had 5.1 surround sound.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by LexInHD

If there is an 8K format, it could very well be solid-state based and not optical disc. The low cost of such memory media in comparative storage sizes to standard optical discs and the superior medium performance make it a very attractive potential successor to optical disc media.

I doubt it solid state has been tried many times and never worked out. But honestly I don't particularly care what format it takes.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

For those that want an 8K disc - are you really going to be happy when the only difference between today's 4K UHD BD will be a resolution hike?

same type of thing was said before BD and UHD BD, so I ma sure there is room for other improvements that will be thrown in. But to answer your question, yes because even then it won't just be "resolution" what we see is highly overly compressed video that if you are watching on an 8k display (right now I am not but I am guessing one day it will be the case) will get even more messed up by upscaling. The improvement o to the picture will be more than the improvement of the simple higher resolution.

Couple all this to the inability of the studios to resell you all your favorite movies again because of the 100,000+ movies made . . . only about 200 of them were shot in 65mm. Not a big inventory to choose from.

I disagree with you again the same old tiered arguments against something better
" limited movies recorded on HD cams and the films where scanned for DVD not HD" HD disks are not needed


" limited movies recorded on UHD cams and the films where remastered for HD" 4k disks are not needed

now it is 8k s turn.

you are missing two things in t your analysis

1) there is not only the past but also the future, I want that fuilm that comes out in 2030 that I want to watch to look its best in my home jus like I do with the film digitized in 1990 in SD

2) Like I said above it is not just about resolution.

let's say a film only exists in HD

a) taking my HD disk putting it in my HD player, upscaling to my 8k display

b) studio taking HD master, upscaling it with professional equipment for 8k disk, then touching up manually where it is needed, releasing on 8k media that I re-buy that is less destructively compressed (that naturally happens as you increase resolution)

for me I would pick to watch version B if possible.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

same type of thing was said before BD and UHD BD, so I ma sure there is room for other improvements that will be thrown in. But to answer your question, yes because even then it won't just be "resolution" what we see is highly overly compressed video that if you are watching on an 8k display (right now I am not but I am guessing one day it will be the case) will get even more messed up by upscaling. The improvement o to the picture will be more than the improvement of the simple higher resolution.

Other improvements? What? Sorry - Hollywood isn't going to increase the color space to 12 bit nor will they change the Chroma Subsampling Rate. There goes your "other improvements."

I disagree with you again the same old tiered arguments against something better
" limited movies recorded on HD cams and the films where scanned for DVD not HD" HD disks are not needed


" limited movies recorded on UHD cams and the films where remastered for HD" 4k disks are not needed

now it is 8k s turn.

you are missing two things in t your analysis

1) there is not only the past but also the future, I want that fuilm that comes out in 2030 that I want to watch to look its best in my home jus like I do with the film digitized in 1990 in SD

2) Like I said above it is not just about resolution.

let's say a film only exists in HD

a) taking my HD disk putting it in my HD player, upscaling to my 8k display

b) studio taking HD master, upscaling it with professional equipment for 8k disk, then touching up manually where it is needed, releasing on 8k media that I re-buy that is less destructively compressed (that naturally happens as you increase resolution)

for me I would pick to watch version B if possible.

You are just building Strawman Arguments. 8K today is failing because people don't want upscaling. They want native 8K content and that isn't happening. Just the same old Youtube videos.

Putting lipstick on a pig - it's still a pig.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Putting lipstick on a pig - it's still a pig.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Other improvements? What? Sorry - Hollywood isn't going to increase the color space to 12 bit nor will they change the Chroma Subsampling Rate. There goes your "other improvements."

same comments on forums every generation.

You are just building Strawman Arguments. 8K today is failing because people don't want upscaling. They want native 8K content and that isn't happening. Just the same old Youtube videos.

Putting lipstick on a pig - it's still a pig.

so you are assuming everyone that is watching SD is doing so only on an SD TV and everyone that is watching HD is doing so only on their HD TV. I am sure almost every one that watches anything is upscaling at some point.

I think 8k in the consumer market is not doing great because there is no 8k content 9on that we agree) but it is not about upscaling it is about being compatibility. Look at LOTR:trop, yes if you buy the newest Samsung 8k Tv you can watch on prime in 8k but if you have an older model you can't because it is not compatible. That is the problem with bleeding edge in any tech it is almost never 100% compatible with what will be the standard. I bought an HDTV to watch HD OTA but when BD came out I had to buy a new TV because it could not input 1080p.

As for failing that is just your delusional opinion based on a partial view of the consumer market. The driving force of display technology is the professional market not the consumer market. The difference is that with colour/HD the TVS did not hit the consumer market until they were able to have a colour/HD tuner in them. with 4k the tuner market was no where near ready but home media (virtual/physical) so they launched without 4k tuners and called them 4k anyways. With 8k they said why wait. But in the end the reality is the same there is money invested in upgrading production lines for the higher resolution and as more and more are produced the production cost difference goes down to the point where producing the lower resolution TV does not make sense.

[Vilya]

I couldn't predict the feathered fanny of a wading duck being wet, but I can't help but notice how little interest there is in 8K and at blu-ray.com of all places.

For all of the enthusiasts that participate here I am not finding much enthusiasm for 8K anything. If I can't find much interest for 8K here, how much less must there be among the general public?

[Wendell R. Breland]

Here is wishing I had the capabilities to do a spectral analysis of video content from UHD BD (native and up-scaled). I would wager there is very little content that would equate to 3000 horizontal pixels and more.

Wonder how many here have used the Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark disc to check their resolution (H & V) using the multi-burst and wedge patterns.

[slimdude]

Originally Posted by mkozlows

I think even more than the general lack of 8K, it's noteworthy that it's 4K on gigantic TVs with solid five-figure prices. If 8K were going to be successful, by now TVs like this would be 8K as a matter of course -- nobody would even consider making a $25-30K 4K TV, because everyone with that kind of money would be salivating for the latest and greatest. But instead, everyone views 8K as a gimmick, and even at megabuck prices, don't care about it. It's probably true that peak 8K was two years ago, and it's just downhill from here."

Anybody who's willing to spend $25-$30,000.00, can put that money on a down payment for a house, not for a TV because without the content, an 8K TV can't do no more than what a 4K TV can do, and it's a lot cheaper.

[Eleton84]

The future revolves around higher technology. We are entering the 4th industrial revolution. Case in point is the number of older people that use smart phones and talk to voice assistants as well as the bombardment of advertisements for smart devices. Right now 8k is just better resolution. But the plan is to add other features. The tech companies are working in overdrive to get the internet of things to grow and expand. One of the features talked about is 360 degree view and actually adopting a higher frame rate. A lot of these features are more for videogames, watching sports or live broadcast news. Which is part of the atsc 3.0 standard. Its not gonna happen overnight but they are chipping away at it.
As far as costs go, electronics are cheaper comparatively then ever. A little 19" tv back in the 1960s was 500 or 600 bucks. Now many retailers like amazon offer payment plans so people can buy big fancy tvs without footing the whole bill upfront. It is a guarantee that 8k content will start to multiply.
So the point is that modern tvs are suppose to be a center point, a hub for all the electronics in your house like a brain and screen to control and view. It is up their with a house and car for many people.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Eleton84

A little 19" tv back in the 1960s was 500 or 600 bucks.

In 1965 a 19" B&W RCA & GE table top (portable) had a MSR of $199.95 ($1,899 2022 dollars), a RCA 21" color TV (round tube) with a plain black metal cabinet (CTC 16 chassis) had a MSR of $600 ($5,697 2022 dollars). The same color chassis in furniture grade cabinets cost a fair amount more.

[Brian81]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

same comments on forums every generation.





so you are assuming everyone that is watching SD is doing so only on an SD TV and everyone that is watching HD is doing so only on their HD TV. I am sure almost every one that watches anything is upscaling at some point.

I think 8k in the consumer market is not doing great because there is no 8k content 9on that we agree) but it is not about upscaling it is about being compatibility. Look at LOTR:trop, yes if you buy the newest Samsung 8k Tv you can watch on prime in 8k but if you have an older model you can't because it is not compatible. That is the problem with bleeding edge in any tech it is almost never 100% compatible with what will be the standard. I bought an HDTV to watch HD OTA but when BD came out I had to buy a new TV because it could not input 1080p.

As for failing that is just your delusional opinion based on a partial view of the consumer market. The driving force of display technology is the professional market not the consumer market. The difference is that with colour/HD the TVS did not hit the consumer market until they were able to have a colour/HD tuner in them. with 4k the tuner market was no where near ready but home media (virtual/physical) so they launched without 4k tuners and called them 4k anyways. With 8k they said why wait. But in the end the reality is the same there is money invested in upgrading production lines for the higher resolution and as more and more are produced the production cost difference goes down to the point where producing the lower resolution TV does not make sense.

You could have output 1080i/60 to your TV. Unless yours was too old for inputting that. I waited on HD until I could input 1080p, before the release of either BD or HD DVD, and that was inputting at 1080p/60. That didn't necessitate the purchase of a new TV. I didn't even have the ability to input 1080p/24 until I went projection.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

As for failing that is just your delusional opinion based on a partial view of the consumer market. The driving force of display technology is the professional market not the consumer market. The difference is that with colour/HD the TVS did not hit the consumer market until they were able to have a colour/HD tuner in them. with 4k the tuner market was no where near ready but home media (virtual/physical) so they launched without 4k tuners and called them 4k anyways. With 8k they said why wait. But in the end the reality is the same there is money invested in upgrading production lines for the higher resolution and as more and more are produced the production cost difference goes down to the point where producing the lower resolution TV does not make sense.

WTF are you talking about?

They sold 150 MILLION TVs in 2021. The consumer market IS the market for TVs. The professional market is lucky to see 1% of those sales.

What do tuners have to do with the success of TVs? People aren't bending over backwards to watch Linear TV with an antenna. Streaming and CBL/SAT - which don't require a tuner at all. That's what people are watching on their TVs.

Do some real research to avoid making a fool of yourself with the crap you just posted.

[PeterTHX]

I see it like this - 8K for high end TVs, the best display tech.

4K for media (broadcast, most streaming). Though lower in resolution they will still look their best on an 8K display.

8K streaming media here and there like YouTube, the occasional special event (think Olympics), and niche streaming service. Or videos people capture themselves on high-end smart phones, and finally next-gen video game systems playing in 8K in the latter half of this decade.

Most innovations I think from here on out will be making displays brighter, fitting into a variety of form factors (think bendable/foldables), and of course larger for a lower price.

But 8K physical media? Unlikely.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Brian81

You could have output 1080i/60 to your TV. Unless yours was too old for inputting that. I waited on HD until I could input 1080p, before the release of either BD or HD DVD, and that was inputting at 1080p/60. That didn't necessitate the purchase of a new TV. I didn't even have the ability to input 1080p/24 until I went projection.

Agree, did not mean to imply it did not work at all. Like I said

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I had to buy a new TV because it could not input 1080p.

I was not looking for 1080i or 720p or anything else that would have worked as input, I bought a HDTV as soon as we had digital OTA in the area and BD in Sept 2006 because I am constantly searching for the best quality I can get.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

WTF are you talking about?

They sold 150 MILLION TVs in 2021. The consumer market IS the market for TVs. The professional market is lucky to see 1% of those sales.

What do tuners have to do with the success of TVs? People aren't bending over backwards to watch Linear TV with an antenna. Streaming and CBL/SAT - which don't require a tuner at all. That's what people are watching on their TVs.

Do some real research to avoid making a fool of yourself with the crap you just posted.

why is "do some real research" always used by people that don't have the skills and aptitude to do research in the first place.

Did I say they don't sell more consumer displays versus professional displays. No I agree with you on that but there is a hell of a difference between selling that 300$ TV to a consumer and that 6 or 7 digit display in the professional market? It costs a lot more to make 10,000 300$ displays then 1 3M$ display and in the end the revenue is similar.


and yes I agree with you tuners on the consumer side are mostly not needed today and were never really need on the professional side, but taht is the point in the past (up to HD) it was so many years passed with better TVs (color HD...) being available on the professional side before hitting the consumer side and they were hitting with content available with 4k that changed, tuners where not there but streaming and UHD BD where there when they hit the consumer side years after the professional side. With 8k the attitude changed they made some lower end 8k displays available on the consumer side even if there was no content anywhere close to being available, why force wealthy consumers to find someone that deals with the professional side to get one. But that also means it will be years before the numbers on the consumer side start growing fast.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

why is "do some real research" always used by people that don't have the skills and aptitude to do research in the first place.

Did I say they don't sell more consumer displays versus professional displays. No I agree with you on that but there is a hell of a difference between selling that 300$ TV to a consumer and that 6 or 7 digit display in the professional market? It costs a lot more to make 10,000 300$ displays then 1 3M$ display and in the end the revenue is similar.

Cripes! Learn some math will you. They just don't sell enough pro monitors to even come close to what you are suggesting. And it's obvious you have no idea how much pro monitors cost. 6 or 7 digits - $100,000 to $1 million?

and yes I agree with you tuners on the consumer side are mostly not needed today and were never really need on the professional side, but taht is the point in the past (up to HD) it was so many years passed with better TVs (color HD...) being available on the professional side before hitting the consumer side and they were hitting with content available with 4k that changed, tuners where not there but streaming and UHD BD where there when they hit the consumer side years after the professional side. With 8k the attitude changed they made some lower end 8k displays available on the consumer side even if there was no content anywhere close to being available, why force wealthy consumers to find someone that deals with the professional side to get one. But that also means it will be years before the numbers on the consumer side start growing fast.

Ever hear "content is king?' That's why 8K TVs have such a poor showing in sales. There is no content. Maybe some day there will be but for the last 3 years and the foreseeable future - NADA. That translates into poor sales numbers for 8K TVs.

8K TV = The Emperor's New Clothes.

[Vilya]

I feel like I found a bargain!



https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/broa...tors/bvm-hx310

https://www.fullcompass.com/prod/604...r=36058-604342

Only $33,370.63! Well below that 6-7 figure estimate given earlier for a pro grade monitor.