Superman: The Movie 4K UHD (1978)

[Geoff D]

I think Warners' disc producers are under the impression that "Original Theatrical Audio" as an audio system is confined to mono or matrixed LtRt 2.0 stereo and that it can't possibly refer to a discrete multichannel mix, which is why it got swapped out on STM. It may be giving them far too much credit but they may have done this out of the best of intentions, they're on an OG audio kick at the moment and they might've looked at this and gone "let's give the people what they want, that way it'll match the others" without realising that it already had a delicious (and near-mythical) OG mix hiding behind that mild-mannered Dolby Digital 5.1 description.

Why do I think this? There's no OG 5.1 track on, say, the just-released UHD of Training Day, and certainly not a 2.0 downmix designed purely for lesser systems (which an original LtRt mix isn't designed for anyway) which makes a nonsense of this supposed soundbar support from Warners.

Ninja edit: Holy shit how's that for timing, same damned thoughts as Yearbook and posted at the same time too!

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Dr. T

The reason for dumping the 5.1 from Superman: The Movie? It's probably some stupid, misguided corporate policy like, "We don't use Dolby Digital for multi channel."

If it were actually a priority and not just an afterthought that wouldn't fly, though. Plus, they reauthored the disc so they could easily re-encode the 5.1 in TrueHD or DTS-MA like many of Warner's releases have. So that really makes no sense.

Originally Posted by starmike

Simple - it was a mistake. You're making a lot out of what's possibly nothing. You don't know if this disc was farmed out to people that don't know 5.1 from mono from 2.0, do you? No, you come up with some big statement about soundbars with nothing to back up your claim.

This would be the "I know better than the professionals" argument / $31 billion dollar company farms out their media authoring to some guy down the block. Neither one particularly logical or convincing.

Why would WB remove their flagship audio from one of their flagship movies? Because of SOUNDBARS? Ridiculous. No evidence to back that up. No statement from WB, with a host of other WB titles they didn't do this to.

The Atmos track is the flagship audio, Warner has made that abundantly clear. And that perhaps should be underscored. Anything other than the Atmos audio for this release is consdered a thrown-in extra/afterthought. Last time it was 5.1, this time it was 2.0. 2.0 just happens to have the benefit that it has better compatibility than 5.1.

[starmike]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I think Warners' disc producers are under the impression that "Original Theatrical Audio" as an audio system is confined to mono or matrixed LtRt 2.0 stereo and that it can't possibly refer to a discrete multichannel mix, which is why it got swapped out on STM. It may be giving them far too much credit but they may have done this out of the best of intentions, they're on an OG audio kick at the moment and they might've looked at this and gone "let's give the people what they want, that way it'll match the others" without realising that it already had a delicious (and near-mythical) OG mix hiding behind that mild-mannered Dolby Digital 5.1 description.

Why do I think this? There's no OG 5.1 track on, say, the just-released UHD of Training Day, and certainly not a 2.0 downmix designed purely for lesser systems (which an original LtRt mix isn't designed for anyway) which makes a nonsense of this supposed soundbar support from Warners.

Ninja edit: Holy shit how's that for timing, same damned thoughts as Yearbook and posted at the same time too!

[starmike]

Originally Posted by Ruined

The Atmos track is the flagship audio, Warner has made that abundantly clear.

It's the DEFAULT, that doesn't mean it's their "flagship audio". Two different things. If they wanted it to be "flagship audio", they wouldn't have butchered it. Their "flagship audio" should be the 70mm split surround, remastered, with some height information for Atmos (like Dragonslayer).

[BrandonJF]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I think Warners' disc producers are under the impression that "Original Theatrical Audio" as an audio system is confined to mono or matrixed LtRt 2.0 stereo and that it can't possibly refer to a discrete multichannel mix, which is why it got swapped out on STM. It may be giving them far too much credit but they may have done this out of the best of intentions, they're on an OG audio kick at the moment and they might've looked at this and gone "let's give the people what they want, that way it'll match the others" without realising that it already had a delicious (and near-mythical) OG mix hiding behind that mild-mannered Dolby Digital 5.1 description.

That is my guess - I just think whoever was working this just thought the DD5.1 was redundant and a lesser version of the Atmos track and the 2.0 is the altnerative original theatrical mix (obviously someone working for WBHV thinks 2.0 of any flavor = "original theatrical audio").

Really, the anomaly is that DD5.1 track ended up on the original release in the first place. THAT seems more of an anomaly than anything else and is like more of a happy accident (or some internal cinephile subterfuge). It wasn't used as part of WBHV's marketing for the release. Not trumpeted on the packaging. This site's review didn't even pick up on it and groaned more about it being the "default" track.

[Dr. T]

Originally Posted by Ruined

If it were actually a priority and not just an afterthought that wouldn't fly, though. Plus, they reauthored the disc so they could easily re-encode the 5.1 in TrueHD or DTS-MA like many of Warner's releases have. So that really makes no sense.

Re-encoding costs time and money. It's cheaper to take a pre-existing encode (the DTS-HD MA 2.0) and put that on a disc. Just ask Croweyes1121 about remuxing.

It's still bizarre to me they took the time to re-author the disc, removed the best part of the disc and didn't even fix the one frame in the main titles. There's no other way to look at this. The 2023 disc is a downgrade.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by starmike

It's the DEFAULT, that doesn't mean it's their "flagship audio". Two different things. If they wanted it to be "flagship audio", they wouldn't have butchered it. Their "flagship audio" should be the 70mm split surround, remastered, with some height information for Atmos (like Dragonslayer).

https://movieweb.com/superman-4k-ult...-release-date/

Superman 4K 2018 disc press release:

Ultra HD* showcases 4K resolution with High Dynamic Range (HDR) and a wider color spectrum, offering consumers brighter, deeper, more lifelike colors for a home entertainment viewing experience like never before.

The 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc of Superman will feature Dolby VisionTM HDR that dramatically expands the color palette and contrast range and uses dynamic metadata to automatically optimize the picture for every screen, frame by frame. The 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc of Superman will also feature a Dolby Atmos® soundtrack remixed specifically for the home theater environment to place and move audio anywhere in the room, including overhead. To experience Dolby Atmos at home, a Dolby Atmos enabled AV receiver and additional speakers are required, or a Dolby Atmos enabled sound bar. Dolby Atmos soundtracks are also fully backward compatible with traditional audio configurations and legacy home entertainment equipment.

Feel free to point out how many times they mentioned how much significance the also included lossy Dolby Digital 5.1 track has. Notwithstanding the fact they only gave it a 640k lossy DD encode instead of a TrueHD encode demonstrates how much they truly care about it.

[starmike]

Originally Posted by Ruined

https://movieweb.com/superman-4k-ult...-release-date/

Superman 4K 2018 disc press release:



Feel free to point out how many times they mentioned how much significance the also included lossy Dolby Digital 5.1 track has. Notwithstanding the fact they only gave it a 640k lossy DD encode instead of a TrueHD encode demonstrates how much they truly care about it.

Dude, I wouldn't champion that sh*tty Atmos mix. It's awful.

[Dr. T]

Dolby Atmos soundtracks are also fully backward compatible with traditional audio configurations and legacy home entertainment equipment.

Oh, so I guess they don't need a 2.0 for compatibility. So much for that theory.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by starmike

Dude, I wouldn't champion that sh*tty Atmos mix. It's awful.

Whether you personally like it or not, it is definitely the flagship mix.

Originally Posted by Dr. T

Oh, so I guess they don't need a 2.0 for compatibility. So much for that theory.

Always has been, as has 5.1. That doesn't mean a dynamically downmixed soundtrack sounds as good as a professionally downmixed soundtrack across cheap soundbars, headphones, TV speakers, etc.

[starmike]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Whether you personally like it or not, it is definitely the flagship mix.

It's not. "Flagship" meaning it stands out as an achievement in sound design from WB's library.

It's garbage.

[Yearbook]

Also, with the set being delayed until May 9th, is this a standard manufacturing delay, putting the old disc in the package after being informed of the error, or a re-encoding? Highly doubt it's the latter, just the hope.

[starmike]

I would like to think so, but it could simply be supply chain.

[BrandonJF]

Originally Posted by Ruined

If it were actually a priority and not just an afterthought that wouldn't fly, though. Plus, they reauthored the disc so they could easily re-encode the 5.1 in TrueHD or DTS-MA like many of Warner's releases have. So that really makes no sense.

Hey! We finally agree on something! It really makes no sense.

This would be the "I know better than the professionals" argument / $31 billion dollar company farms out their media authoring to some guy down the block. Neither one particularly logical or convincing.

It amazes me that someone wants to throw out "professionals" currently given how things are going with studios like WB and Paramount.

Waitasec... I don't know why it took this long to dawn on me who we have to blame for this "Superman: The Movie" mess. It was right in front of us the whole time. Are you this "professional"? Rian Johnson couldn't have written this twist better (really, he couldn't).

"Who could possibly have ruined this release? 'Ruined' this release.... "

"My. God. No."

The Atmos track is the flagship audio, Warner has made that abundantly clear. And that perhaps should be underscored. Anything other than the Atmos audio for this release is consdered a thrown-in extra/afterthought. Last time it was 5.1, this time it was 2.0. 2.0 just happens to have the benefit that it has better compatibility than 5.1.

So, to you, "flagship" = "default"? Because it amazes me that last time the 5.1 was the "flagship" audio when the exact same Atmos track was on the disc.

So, the "afterthoughts" last time were the Atmos track and the 2.0 track?

What about the Warner releases that don't have an Atmos track? They have no "flagship audio"?

Where is this soundbar that can't handle DD5.1?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by BrandonJF

That is my guess - I just think whoever was working this just thought the DD5.1 was redundant and a lesser version of the Atmos track and the 2.0 is the altnerative original theatrical mix (obviously someone working for WBHV thinks 2.0 of any flavor = "original theatrical audio").

Really, the anomaly is that DD5.1 track ended up on the original release in the first place. THAT seems more of an anomaly than anything else and is like more of a happy accident (or some internal cinephile subterfuge). It wasn't used as part of WBHV's marketing for the release. Not trumpeted on the packaging. This site's review didn't even pick up on it and groaned more about it being the "default" track.

Aye, I have to applaud whichever sneaky mofo got that onto the 2018 release in the first place. It would've taken a bit of work too! Or maybe the work to transfer and mix that 5.1 from the mag tracks was already done, for archival purposes like, and some tech just pulled the nearest "5.1" mix to put onto the disc (Warners were starting to provide 5.1 backups to main Atmos tracks at that time, even for movies that were natively Atmos).

[Dr. T]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Warners were starting to provide 5.1 backups to main Atmos tracks at that time, even for movies that were natively Atmos.

Which was already a bizarre move. It's like they didn't understand the technology their press releases were saying was compatible.

If the 70mm track had been used as the basis for the Atmos instead of the 2001 Thau mix I don't think anyone would complain.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by BrandonJF

So, to you, "flagship" = "default"? Because it amazes me that last time the 5.1 was the "flagship" audio when the exact same Atmos track was on the disc.

The flagship audio is the one primarily marketed by the studio that is given the most attention, care, etc. The Atmos was not the default last time for backwards compatibility purposes (again showing WB cares about BC even though Atmos is technically BC). But, nearly all the marketing by WB about the release focused on the Atmos mix. Also, if the DD5.1 track was the flagship track, it would not be encoded in lossy codec.

What about the Warner releases that don't have an Atmos track? They have no "flagship audio"?

Then the flagship tracks have the 5.1/7.1 encoded lossless. I think you will be hard pressed to find Warner releases that use a lossy encode as the main audio on 4K.

Where is this soundbar that can't handle DD5.1?

I guess we'll have to do this the hard way. Why dont you explain to me exactly how a Blu-ray player downmixes each of the 5.1 track channels to 2.0. Perhaps once you do the research to understand this, that will inform you how the data in the audio channels is handled in a dynamic downmix and you will understand why a professional 2.0 downmix is superior to a player downmixing 5.1 to 2.0.

[chip75]

Gonna have to assume Warner's flagship is Boaty McBoatface.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Dr. T

Which was already a bizarre move. It's like they didn't understand the technology their press releases were saying was compatible.

If the 70mm track had been used as the basis for the Atmos instead of the 2001 Thau mix I don't think anyone would complain.

I'm not sure they've ever quite known their arse from their elbow when it comes to audio. Putting a full-fat DTS-HD MA 5.1 track alongside the native Atmos on, say, their UHD of Blade Runner 2049 while neglecting to include the previous 5.1 for the original Blade Runner felt like some kind of bizarre joke. If the gear downstream can't play any part of the lossless audio then it'll drop back to the embedded DD 5.1 track which even the shittiest old soundbar can play, over optical (SP-DIF) if need be, that's what makes it even dafter. But sometimes through such daftness gems can be uncovered like the Supes 70mm mix.

[david_blu]

I thought I would check in on the thread sees if Supes has overcome Zod, but it appears we are stuck at the point in the movie where the villains are blowing wind. I am seeing so much hot air flying through this thread I think I will go back to the Fortress.