HDR heatmaps and torch mode UHDs

[matbezlima]

Originally Posted by Macatouille

Can definitely do the first but I don’t have the second volume (yet).

It would already be great to have the first volume here! It has Hitchcock's biggest movies among all Hitchcock 4K Universal volumes really.

[matbezlima]

Question: how do you make your color gamut graphs? Which software do you use?

[Macatouille]

John Wick: Chapter 3 - Parabellum (2019)

Mastering display luminance              : min: 0.0010 cd/m2, max: 1000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level              : 1000 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level        : 358 cd/m2

Heatmaps (Album)

[Show spoiler]

Gamut Visualizations (Album)

[Show spoiler]

HDR10 Plot

[Macatouille]

The MaxFALL drops to the original's level (~118 nits) but the MaxCLL jumps to the max, 10k nits. However, if you look at the chart, you can see that's just an exception. The vast majority of the highlights stay under 1k nits. My highest graded shot was 1240:



Also worth noting that this is the first of the 3 movies with a Dolby Vision grade.

And not to belabor the point, but the WCG is in great use again. Nearly every shot of mine exceeded Rec. 709 somewhere:

[matbezlima]

As more and more UHDs are starting to take full advantage of Rec.2020, when do you guys think we will start to see older UHDs being regraded to take advantage of Rec.2020 (especially taking into account catalogue titles that were graded only in DCI-P3, but we know that film allows for more)?

[Hedrox]

Originally Posted by matbezlima

As more and more UHDs are starting to take full advantage of Rec.2020, when do you guys think we will start to see older UHDs being regraded to take advantage of Rec.2020 (especially taking into account catalogue titles that were graded only in DCI-P3, but we know that film allows for more)?

If by that you mean re-releases of existing UHDs then never. Outside of Sony no studio is willing to invest in re-dos of any kind and that's not going to change.

[matbezlima]

Originally Posted by Hedrox

If by that you mean re-releases of existing UHDs then never. Outside of Sony no studio is willing to invest in re-dos of any kind and that's not going to change.

I hate the hyperboles. Do you know how long "never" is? Even if it takes 50 years, and it was on an entirely new medium altogether instead of a 4K blu-ray disc, it would still not be "never". I hate how casually the word "never" is thrown around in these forums.

Personally, I believe we will see redos of many titles in the next 15 years for UHD. Very long-term. Most likely in anniversary years.

[Hedrox]

Originally Posted by matbezlima

I hate the hyperboles. Do you know how long "never" is? Even if it takes 50 years, and it was on an entirely new medium altogether instead of a 4K blu-ray disc, it would still not be "never". I hate how casually the word "never" is thrown around in these forums.

Personally, I believe we will see redos of many titles in the next 15 years for UHD. Very long-term. Most likely in anniversary years.

You have to be realistic, UHD is most likely the last physical format we'll get for the foreseeable future and I honestly can't see it still being a thing in 15 years.

Will studios EVER revisit 4K masters? possibly. Will they get physical releases? I very much doubt it.

[matbezlima]

Originally Posted by Hedrox

You have to be realistic, UHD is most likely the last physical format we'll get for the foreseeable future and I honestly can't see it still being a thing in 15 years.

Will studios EVER revisit 4K masters? possibly. Will they get physical releases? I very much doubt it.

UHD will still be alive as a niche for at least 10 or 15 years. I think the format will last till the deep end of next decade. And there won't be DVD to kill it, unlike Laserdisc's fate. Laserdisc lasted for many, many years as a VERY niche format, and the UHD has a similar appeal.

But I believe UHDs will be fully substituted eventually by something better. Services like Kaleidescape and Sony Bravia Core are the baby steps to create a world of downloadable high-fidelity films in the same way that you see for digital stores of lossless music. I can see UHD collections being mostly replaced by hard drives with insane storage.

Last, but not least, you can never underestimate the collector's market, and how devoted it is, the yearning for a physical connection to their art. The comeback of vinyl is already old news, but even CD is experiencing a resurgence in popularity, thanks to audiophiles and collectors.

I believe that, at least for the biggest movies, we will see at least some of the the most problematic masters being revisited in the next 10 years or so. I would hope that The Godfather trilogy gets revisited in 2032.

There is a recent interview with Kevin Schaeffer and Eric Goldberg at Polygon, talking about the recent 4K restoration they did for Cinderella (they also restored Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs, which is coming out in 4K UHD in October 10). I'll quote Kevin Schaefer, director of restoration at Disney, talking about what to do when all these classics are finally restored in 4K. Also, according to Disney's press release announcement of Snow White in 4K, this is part of major restoration program going on right now at the company.

“I think of it like painting the Golden Gate Bridge,” says Schaeffer. “By the time you get through all the classics, technology has moved far enough where it’s time to go back.”

[matbezlima]

One important thing I need to add though: many, many, many 4K releases already have truly staggering colors without having to really go beyond DCI-P3.

I think that the kind of video content that will truly benefit the most from Rec. 2020 will not be movies, but nature docs. Especially the greens of forests. Maybe the blues of Antarctica.

[Labor_Unit001]

Originally Posted by Macatouille

The MaxFALL drops to the original's level (~118 nits) but the MaxCLL jumps to the max, 10k nits. However, if you look at the chart, you can see that's just an exception. The vast majority of the highlights stay under 1k nits. My highest graded shot was 1240:

Thanks again for your caps. Do you plan on doing the fourth movie as well?

[matbezlima]

Originally Posted by Labor_Unit001

Thanks again for your caps. Do you plan on doing the fourth movie as well?

I think he'll do it eventually, but we may have to wait. He said this in the previous page of this thread.

"Posting the third John Wick tomorrow and then next week is Tenet, Robocop, Blow Out, Gemini Man and The Untouchables."

[dorian]

Originally Posted by Fjodor2000

I think I might have found another Kino 4K BD with torch mode subtitles (i.e. 4000/10000 nits!).

More specifically this one:

[Show spoiler]

Are any of you HDR wizards able to analyze a screenshot from it with subtitles included to confirm this suspicion? I.e. like dorian did with The Usual Suspects in the quote above.

If as suspected, I think The Usual Suspects 4K BD may not have been a single odd production mistake, but that Kino has a systematic problem affecting several of their 4K BD titles in that they have the subtitles set to max HDR brightness.

Same thing. The problem is PGS subtitles are gamma (SDR) encoded images that being ST 2084 (HDR) decoded by the display. Code values that ordinarily map to a reasonable light level in SDR get mapped to ridiculous light levels in HDR. As less than 1% of the frame exceeds 1000 nits, the subtitles will almost certainly hit display max too.

[Show spoiler]

It's the anti-aliasing on the text that clips and produces the 10,000 nit reading:

[Show spoiler]

The body of the text has code value 235 (in 8-bit). If we assign gamma a nominal peak luminance of 100 nits, we can see the crazy disparity in light output.
Column 1: code value. Column 2: gamma light output. Column 3: ST 2084 light output.

[Show spoiler]

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by matbezlima

As more and more UHDs are starting to take full advantage of Rec.2020, when do you guys think we will start to see older UHDs being regraded to take advantage of Rec.2020 (especially taking into account catalogue titles that were graded only in DCI-P3, but we know that film allows for more)?

It's a nice idea but the spec has not changed. Full-blown Rec2020 is, and always was, the container within which the content is graded. Equally, full 10,000 is, and always was, the maximum luminance. The standards were set that way deliberately, so that we wouldn't have continuous cycles of "right, upgraded that bit, now everyone upgrade X, Y and X and re-buy this or that".

You might say that they made a choice to grade within a completely artificial DCI-P3 boundary, and they could now, after X years have passed, suddenly decide go back and re-grade without that artificial boundary, even though nothing has changed at all about those titles other than "the passage of time", and it's just a hope that they would make a different choice.

But that's just a guess based on it being that artificial choice. We do not know for any title why the content we see from the disc doesn't use wider colours, and there could be hundreds of reasons for it which are absolutely nothing at all to do with the final grading of the disc. Such as the cameras used, film development processing, special effects limitations of the time, and other parts of the process I can't articulate.

In the 1990s and later it was very common for a movie to be "digitally re-mastered!" and then sold on a VHS tape which was better than the previous VHS tape. Big steps in picture quality were made in those times, and it was worth doing. But our starting point now is already of sufficiently high quality for it to be vanishingly unlikely that they will do such a "re-mastering".

Obviously I hope I'm wrong and I would welcome it, but I just don't think that it is very likely at all. The best we'll get is that if a new grade is done it's on a streaming service. The days of us actually owning and having possession of movies, are dwindling (and it makes me very angry). I know this isn't the answer you had hoped for. (Your question wasn't even "do you think it might happen" - you asked "when", assuming it was a definite).

[Amano]

I have one wish in advance of the upcoming German (Rebuild of) Evangelion 3.0+1.0 UHD disc:

Has somebody the Japanese UHD available to analyze?

[Grain Man]

Originally Posted by matbezlima

One important thing I need to add though: many, many, many 4K releases already have truly staggering colors without having to really go beyond DCI-P3.

I think that the kind of video content that will truly benefit the most from Rec. 2020 will not be movies, but nature docs. Especially the greens of forests. Maybe the blues of Antarctica.

I would add that there are not that many colours in nature outside of the Rec 709, those tend to be man made colours

But in general I think that the nature documentaries are some which tend to benefit the most from the UHD format. HDR makes a big difference!

[Macatouille]

Originally Posted by Labor_Unit001

Thanks again for your caps. Do you plan on doing the fourth movie as well?

So I actually bought it a couple days ago but I don’t think it’s shipped yet. Whenever it shows up I’ll definitely do it.

[matbezlima]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

To quote what I said in another comment: "many, many, many 4K releases already have truly staggering colors without having to really go beyond DCI-P3". So, yeah: for a lot of films, if not the vast majority of them, doing a new 4K master just for the sake of going beyond DCI-P3 isn't really worthy and might have very negligible actual gain. Your comments on this make a lot of sense.

About the UHD format, please check out these two comments I made on the subject:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=2038

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=789

[Macatouille]

Batman: The Mask of the Phantasm (1993)

Mastering display luminance              : min: 0.0001 cd/m2, max: 1000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level              : 775 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level        : 99 cd/m2

Heatmaps (Album)

[Show spoiler]

Gamut Visualizations (Album)

[Show spoiler]

Tonemapped Screenshots (Album)

[Show spoiler]

HDR10 Plot

[Macatouille]

Breaking my schedule a little bit for some timely analysis. Got this in the mail last week and really wanted to give it a whirl, especially given how good it looks. So many shots are just packed with new detail. Granted, there are plenty of softer shots but I assume it's just a weakness of the source material.

The MaxCLL here is 1,663 nits, MaxFALL 475. My brightest captured highlight was 1259 nits but I got a couple headlights and street lights north of 700:



Pretty healthy use of the WCG here too, mostly in P3 in reds and blues:



And for the first time I'm adding tonemapped screenshots, with the hable ffmpeg tonemap option:



Given that I'm new to this part, I'm open to suggestions for making them more accurate. Here's my complete screenshot command for reference:

ffmpeg -i "C:\Folder\file.mkv" -vf fps=1/30,zscale=t=linear:npl=100,format=gbrpf32le,zscale=p=bt709,tonemap=tonemap=hable:desat=0,zscale=t=bt709:m=bt709:r=tv,format=yuv420p C:\Folder\Heatmaps\FILE%04d.png