Killers of the Flower Moon (2023)

[travisbickle]

Originally Posted by dkelly26666

Definitely. It seems that mostly the only people posting in here so far are the ones who wanted to be critical of it in the first place, and seem to have a genuine dislike for DiCaprio.

No celeb worship here. I think just about everyone in Hollywood is a human piece of garbage, but I can separate the art from the artist and if they're a really good actor I'll acknowledge it.

DiCaprio isn't, IMO. He's overrated.

[captveg]

Originally Posted by Dave Bannion

Could’ve juggled FBI and Osage POVs; the revision was more about placating DiCaprio than telling the Osage side of the story imo.

The film is about those that are inflicting the continual grief upon the Osage more than anything. The tormentors and their shameful callousness. It's certainly less conventional and makes for a more difficult narrative to stomach, but that's part of the intent. Like any filmmaker Scorsese is going to make what interests him and hope that others come along with him in those interests. I happened to really like the film but even when I don't like a film that is less conventional because of an artistic drive I still want such films to be made. It makes for far a more interesting industry.

[elecrofunk]

Just got out and was tempted to give this and 8 but, it's a solid 7.5
Leo did just fine, loved Dinero and some of the dialog was just wonderful.
It never caught fire but almost did several times. The runtime did not seem long at all it was immensely watchable. I honestly haven't enjoyed a film this much in the theater in a long time.
Sure they dump on the story a little but as they say it's a piece of entertainment in the end.

[xbs2034]

A- cinemascore, I think a very good score for such a dark and intense film

[dancerslegs]

IMO, in 2023, you don't make Tom White the lead character of this movie. While it definitely would've been ideal for Mollie to be the main character here--and, let's face it, she wasn't; as women, especially minority women, aren't Scorsese's forte--it was important, if not critical, for the filmmakers to instead slot Ernest into the expected "audience surrogate" role for the sorts who will in all probability comprise the bulk of the movie's paying customers. (Don't forget that most folks who go to see this film will be unfamiliar with both the book and the historical events, and will likely be drawn in by the trailer and names involved.)

Casting the attractive DiCaprio in this part, you have practically the ideal set-up for putting the self-delusions and prejudices of the complacent white liberals viewing this film to a real test,

[Show spoiler]who will doubtless be utterly shocked and horrified when they find out that "their guy" is actually a greedy opportunist, thief, and murderer; who works to eradicate his wife's family and slowly poisons her to death, all while showing himself to be a genuinely "loving" husband to her and father to their mixed-race kids. That the even viler Hale is the one ultimately pulling the strings is all he needs to absolve himself of his full complicity in the atrocities: he accepts that the deaths of his in-laws are on his conscience, but clings to the canard that, at the end of the day, his love for Mollie and his children is what ultimately saves him from total damnation. (Besides, dull-witted and impotent that he was compared to men of real power like Hale, he was but a mere participant in "the system".) When Mollie abandons him after his dissembling confession, only then does Ernest find out that his "white guilt" offers him no "out" or redemption whatever.

And thus, neither are we, viewing the horrific events depicted in the film with the hindsight of 100 years' distance, let off the hook; conveniently provided with a white character or characters with who we can closely align our ever-worthy selves. (Tom White and the BOI agents are, thankfully, kept at too much of a distance for that.) After a century of whitewashing and cowardly evasions, the time has come for us to confront our own complicity in abetting cultures and systems, by and of our own, that position us to climb over the bodies of the less-advantaged to get ahead. (Endlessly buttressing "white savior" narratives being but one subsidiary example.)

If Killers of the Flower Moon has one pungent, converging theme that a white-passing, Italian-American filmmaker in his 80s can pursue to render the Osage Indian Murders of the early part of the last century still relevant and resonant for our times, this is it. (An Osage filmmaker would likely have had a different, much more personal and poignant take on the historical events. I hope we get to see that one too someday.)

[happydood]

Originally Posted by travisbickle

I think just about everyone in Hollywood is a human piece of garbage

Well, thank God, you're on the level at least.

[dkelly26666]

Originally Posted by dancerslegs

IMO, in 2023, you don't make Tom White the lead character of this movie. While it definitely would've been ideal for Mollie to be the main character here--and, let's face it, she wasn't; as women, especially minority women, aren't Scorsese's forte--it was important, if not critical, for the filmmakers to instead slot Ernest into the expected "audience surrogate" role for the sorts who will in all probability comprise the bulk of the movie's paying customers. (Don't forget that most folks who go to see this film will be unfamiliar with both the book and the historical events, and will likely be drawn in by the trailer and names involved.)

Casting the attractive DiCaprio in this part, you have practically the ideal set-up for putting the self-delusions and prejudices of the complacent white liberals viewing this film to a real test,

[Show spoiler]who will doubtless be utterly shocked and horrified when they find out that "their guy" is actually a greedy opportunist, thief, and murderer; who works to eradicate his wife's family and slowly poisons her to death, all while showing himself to be a genuinely "loving" husband to her and father to their mixed-race kids. That the even viler Hale is the one ultimately pulling the strings is all he needs to absolve himself of his full complicity in the atrocities: he accepts that the deaths of his in-laws are on his conscience, but clings to the canard that, at the end of the day, his love for Mollie and his children is what ultimately saves him from total damnation. (Besides, dull-witted and impotent that he was compared to men of real power like Hale, he was but a mere participant in "the system".) When Mollie abandons him after his dissembling confession, only then does Ernest find out that his "white guilt" offers him no "out" or redemption whatever.

And thus, neither are we, viewing the horrific events depicted in the film with the hindsight of 100 years' distance, let off the hook; conveniently provided with a white character or characters with who we can closely align our ever-worthy selves. (Tom White and the BOI agents are, thankfully, kept at too much of a distance for that.) After a century of whitewashing and cowardly evasions, the time has come for us to confront our own complicity in abetting cultures and systems, by and of our own, that position us to climb over the bodies of the less-advantaged to get ahead. (Endlessly buttressing "white savior" narratives being but one subsidiary example.)

If Killers of the Flower Moon has one pungent, converging theme that a white-passing, Italian-American filmmaker in his 80s can pursue to render the Osage Indian Murders of the early part of the last century still relevant and resonant for our times, this is it. (An Osage filmmaker would likely have had a different, much more personal and poignant take on the historical events. I hope we get to see that one too someday.)

[Show spoiler]And don't forget the finale, where Scorsese even daringly makes himself complicit, depicting the 'tragedy as entertainment' follow-up. Nevertheless, I was moved by his reading of Molly's obit, declaring that the murders weren't even mentioned. The one point in the film where I nearly teared up.

With this film, I'm reminded of what I said about "The Wolf of Wall Street" a decade ago, where I compared it to 'Salo', as a deconstruction from within of everything that is corrupt in our society, from the POV of pure evil, rather than good. We can judge the evil all day, until we realize that we are a part of it. That's much harder to swallow.

[klauswhereareyou]

De Niro did a better job of playing the devil in this then he did in Angel Heart.

[TAC]

Originally Posted by travisbickle

No celeb worship here. I think just about everyone in Hollywood is a human piece of garbage, but I can separate the art from the artist and if they're a really good actor I'll acknowledge it.

DiCaprio isn't, IMO. He's overrated.

Perhaps in this one

[dkelly26666]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

De Niro did a better job of playing the devil in this then he did in Angel Heart.

[Show spoiler] That part where he's desperate at the end, declaring, "I love you. I love you, son.", from behind bars, LOL. Truly devilish, indeed.

[Poya]

2 hours in, one guy walked out, struck his middle fingers out and said "f this movie!". It's a damn shame.

[dkelly26666]

Originally Posted by Poya

2 hours in, one guy walked out, struck his middle fingers out and said "f this movie!". It's a damn shame.

Oh well, f him, LOL.

[Losey]

Originally Posted by captveg

The film is about those that are inflicting the continual grief upon the Osage more than anything. The tormentors and their shameful callousness. It's certainly less conventional and makes for a more difficult narrative to stomach, but that's part of the intent. Like any filmmaker Scorsese is going to make what interests him and hope that others come along with him in those interests. I happened to really like the film but even when I don't like a film that is less conventional because of an artistic drive I still want such films to be made. It makes for far a more interesting industry.

This. Here, like in many of his previous films, Scorsese forces us to share the main perspective of the criminal/murderer parties. Like Ray Liotta in Goodfellas, Leonardo DiCaprio in KOTFM willingly goes on the dark side under Robert De Niro’s tutelage. For me, the screenplay rewrite is not an agenda thing: it’s pure Scorsese.

[Stanis]

Just got back from my imax screening. 5/5. The opening and closing were masterful, and there were so many interesting faces in this. Leo and DeNiro tried to out scowl one another. Just all around great

[sanriel]

It's easy to forget what real cinema is because of Disney and the state of Hollywood today in general. But we still have wizards like Nolan and Scorsese ready to remind us.

[slip220]

Originally Posted by sanriel

It's easy to forget what real cinema is because of Disney and the state of Hollywood today in general. But we still have wizards like Nolan and Scorsese ready to remind us.

Don't forget Riddley Scott

It would be even more tremendous if Dune 2 was released. Comic book movies are finally dying and cinema is healing.

[CreasyBear]

Originally Posted by dancerslegs

IMO, in 2023, you don't make Tom White the lead character of this movie. While it definitely would've been ideal for Mollie to be the main character here--and, let's face it, she wasn't; as women, especially minority women, aren't Scorsese's forte--it was important, if not critical, for the filmmakers to instead slot Ernest into the expected "audience surrogate" role for the sorts who will in all probability comprise the bulk of the movie's paying customers. (Don't forget that most folks who go to see this film will be unfamiliar with both the book and the historical events, and will likely be drawn in by the trailer and names involved.)

Casting the attractive DiCaprio in this part, you have practically the ideal set-up for putting the self-delusions and prejudices of the complacent white liberals viewing this film to a real test,

[Show spoiler]who will doubtless be utterly shocked and horrified when they find out that "their guy" is actually a greedy opportunist, thief, and murderer; who works to eradicate his wife's family and slowly poisons her to death, all while showing himself to be a genuinely "loving" husband to her and father to their mixed-race kids. That the even viler Hale is the one ultimately pulling the strings is all he needs to absolve himself of his full complicity in the atrocities: he accepts that the deaths of his in-laws are on his conscience, but clings to the canard that, at the end of the day, his love for Mollie and his children is what ultimately saves him from total damnation. (Besides, dull-witted and impotent that he was compared to men of real power like Hale, he was but a mere participant in "the system".) When Mollie abandons him after his dissembling confession, only then does Ernest find out that his "white guilt" offers him no "out" or redemption whatever.

And thus, neither are we, viewing the horrific events depicted in the film with the hindsight of 100 years' distance, let off the hook; conveniently provided with a white character or characters with who we can closely align our ever-worthy selves. (Tom White and the BOI agents are, thankfully, kept at too much of a distance for that.) After a century of whitewashing and cowardly evasions, the time has come for us to confront our own complicity in abetting cultures and systems, by and of our own, that position us to climb over the bodies of the less-advantaged to get ahead. (Endlessly buttressing "white savior" narratives being but one subsidiary example.)

If Killers of the Flower Moon has one pungent, converging theme that a white-passing, Italian-American filmmaker in his 80s can pursue to render the Osage Indian Murders of the early part of the last century still relevant and resonant for our times, this is it. (An Osage filmmaker would likely have had a different, much more personal and poignant take on the historical events. I hope we get to see that one too someday.)

Good shit. Thank you. I'm so incredibly glad this film even exists in this form.

[dancerslegs]

Originally Posted by Poya

2 hours in, one guy walked out, struck his middle fingers out and said "f this movie!". It's a damn shame.

Sounds like someone was triggered.

[klauswhereareyou]

Originally Posted by Poya

2 hours in, one guy walked out, struck his middle fingers out and said "f this movie!". It's a damn shame.

I hope he gets the help he needs.

[cgpublic]

Originally Posted by dancerslegs

IMO, in 2023, you don't make Tom White the lead character of this movie.

When history becomes uncomfortable, we simply excise the truth from the narrative arc and cower from the threat of modern sensibility.