4K UHD Blu-ray Playback on PC Desktop is officially dead in 2021?

[apollo828]

Oh, it's illegal as can be, short of the Library of Congress carving out an applicable DMCA exception. But, as I've pointed out here several times, whenever some wannabe hall monitor delivers a stern lecture, nobody's going to get in trouble for any of this. You either accept that PC playback is dead and move on with your life, or you have a little fun hacking your gear.

[usually_quiet]

Originally Posted by apollo828

Oh, it's illegal as can be, short of the Library of Congress carving out an applicable DMCA exception. But, as I've pointed out here several times, whenever some wannabe hall monitor delivers a stern lecture, nobody's going to get in trouble for any of this. You either accept that PC playback is dead and move on with your life, or you have a little fun hacking your gear.

True. I'm not distributing unauthorized copies of my discs or keeping a digital copy and reselling my used discs.

[usually_quiet]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Stamped pressed BD-66 and BD-100 4K Blu-ray discs exist. However BDXL 100GB and 128GB blank discs are for special BD-ROM computer drives with the BDXL symbol and will not playback in a standalone 4K Blu-ray player.

The UHD Blu-ray spec doesn't cover UHD Blu-ray on any kind of burnable media, so it is true that UHD Blu-ray players are not obligated to play UHD Blu-ray on BDXL media. In fact, I can't recall seeing any UHD Blu-ray players that list BDXL as playable media for anything.

However, it is also true that some standalone UHD Blu-ray players do play copies of pressed 66GB UHD Blu-ray disc burned on 100GB BDXL as an undocumented feature, if the copy fits on the first 2 layers. I can't confirm this from personal experience but there is a years long thread about this on another forum that I belong to where plenty of others seem to be succeeding.

[Edit] I decided to look at that other forum's thread for a list of hardware UHD Blu-ray players that can play 100 GB BDXL media. Sony's UBP-X700, UBP-X800, and UBP-X800M2 will play 100 GB BDXL media if less than 66 GB is used for the data. The Panasonic DP-UB450 plays 100 GB BDXL media even when the data exceeds 66GB.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by usually_quiet

The UHD Blu-ray spec doesn't cover UHD Blu-ray on any kind of burnable media, so it is true that UHD Blu-ray players are not obligated to play UHD Blu-ray on BDXL media. In fact, I can't recall seeing any UHD Blu-ray players that list BDXL as playable media for anything.

However, it is also true that some standalone UHD Blu-ray players do play copies of pressed 66GB UHD Blu-ray disc burned on 100GB BDXL as an undocumented feature, if the copy fits on the first 2 layers. I can't confirm this from personal experience but there is a years long thread about this on another forum that I belong to where plenty of others seem to be succeeding.

The only machines I am aware of capable of playing video on recordable BDXL discs are the Blu-ray DVR units that are sadly only available in Japan and a few other countries. Some of them can burn 4K programs in HEVC but it is not Ultra HD Blu-ray format and can only be played back on these units.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Starting in Q1 2021 when Intel releases their next generation microarchitecture of processors there will be no longer be any new desktop processors that support the hardware needed for 4K UHD Blu-ray DRM.

Neither of the Intel 11th generation Desktop processors that will be available (Mainstream Rocket Lake S / HEDT/Server Ice Lake X/SP) will support both Intel SGX & integrated graphics which is what is required for the DRM to enable native PC 4K UHD Blu-ray hardware playback.

Intel's upcoming 10th generation mainstream part Comet Lake S appears it will be the last generation of PC desktop CPU anytime soon to support 4K UHD Blu-ray DRM.

So, will the BDA remove the Intel SGX requirement then or is 4K UHD Blu-ray on PC desktop officially dead as of Q1 2021?

Sadly, your post came true. The playback of both 4K Blu-ray discs and Blu-ray 3D discs is now officially dead to the over 1.4 billion Windows 10 and Windows 11 owners. Cyberlink was the only Windows software that supported 4K Blu-ray discs and as of November 2023 the company basically is telling everyone that they no longer support 4K Blu-ray playback on a Windows PC. The main problem is that no one is making new computers with the SGX security technology built into the CPU and motherboard BIOS. SGX is the only approved hardware based security technogy that is approved by the BDA.

Most likely everyone making 4K BD-ROM computer drives will now cease production, since no need to make a 4K BD-ROM drive if there is no longer any official software to playback the media. Cyberlink is recommending consumer go buy a standalone 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray player. But who knows for some companies 2023 might be the last year that standalone 4K Blu-ray players remain in production including possible 2K Blu-ray players. This is another negative blow to the 4K Blu-ray format with no computer operating system supporting the disc format. But at least for the standard 2K Blu-ray format over 1.4 billion Windows PC’s are supported, including the old Windows Vista and Windows 7 operating system.

Quote

“This is a tough decision, but we have decided to cease the UHD BD playback features and the corresponding online authentication in the latest version of PowerDVD 22 and PowerDVD 365 after October, 2023. As a result, UHD BDs will become unplayable in PowerDVD.”

https://www.cyberlink.com/support-ce...ntent?id=28347

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Most likely everyone making 4K BD-ROM computer drives will now cease production, since no need to make a 4K BD-ROM drive if there is no longer any official software to playback the media.

You must never tire of saying completely nonsensical things. "Official" UHD drives are just BDXL drives with some firmware tweaks, like bus encryption. That's it. So long as manufacturers make BDXL drives, discs will be readable. Official playback may not be possible but I'm not flogging that dead horse again.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Sadly, your post came true. The playback of both 4K Blu-ray discs and Blu-ray 3D discs is now officially dead to the over 1.4 billion Windows 10 and Windows 11 owners. Cyberlink was the only Windows software that supported 4K Blu-ray discs and as of November 2023 the company basically is telling everyone that they no longer support 4K Blu-ray playback on a Windows PC. The main problem is that no one is making new computers with the SGX security technology built into the CPU and motherboard BIOS. SGX is the only approved hardware based security technogy that is approved by the BDA.

Most likely everyone making 4K BD-ROM computer drives will now cease production, since no need to make a 4K BD-ROM drive if there is no longer any official software to playback the media. Cyberlink is recommending consumer go buy a standalone 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray player. But who knows for some companies 2023 might be the last year that standalone 4K Blu-ray players remain in production including possible 2K Blu-ray players. This is another negative blow to the 4K Blu-ray format with no computer operating system supporting the disc format. But at least for the standard 2K Blu-ray format over 1.4 billion Windows PC’s are supported, including the old Windows Vista and Windows 7 operating system.

Quote

“This is a tough decision, but we have decided to cease the UHD BD playback features and the corresponding online authentication in the latest version of PowerDVD 22 and PowerDVD 365 after October, 2023. As a result, UHD BDs will become unplayable in PowerDVD.”

https://www.cyberlink.com/support-ce...ntent?id=28347

Would it still work in PowerDVD 21 and earlier on the machines that had SGX? Pioneer still includes PowerDVD 14 with its drives.

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

Would it still work in PowerDVD 21 and earlier on the machines that had SGX? Pioneer still includes PowerDVD 14 with its drives.

Up to a certain point, it should. The software has to go online in order to support new AACS versions. If you have an older disc, you should be fine, unless Cyberlink is monkeying with the software in other, unnecessary ways. Newer AACS versions? That's a roll of the dice.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by apollo828

Up to a certain point, it should. The software has to go online in order to support new AACS versions. If you have an older disc, you should be fine, unless Cyberlink is monkeying with the software in other, unnecessary ways. Newer AACS versions? That's a roll of the dice.

If newer discs use newer AACS versions, then how come people with the OPPO machines (released in 2017) are still able to play the latest discs? The final update was back in 2019. In the early days of the format, they were talking about discs that would require online authentication the first time they were played on a given machine, but as far as I can tell, no such disc was ever released.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Sadly, your post came true. The playback of both 4K Blu-ray discs and Blu-ray 3D discs is now officially dead to the over 1.4 billion Windows 10 and Windows 11 owners. Cyberlink was the only Windows software that supported 4K Blu-ray discs and as of November 2023 the company basically is telling everyone that they no longer support 4K Blu-ray playback on a Windows PC. The main problem is that no one is making new computers with the SGX security technology built into the CPU and motherboard BIOS. SGX is the only approved hardware based security technogy that is approved by the BDA.

Most likely everyone making 4K BD-ROM computer drives will now cease production, since no need to make a 4K BD-ROM drive if there is no longer any official software to playback the media. Cyberlink is recommending consumer go buy a standalone 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray player. But who knows for some companies 2023 might be the last year that standalone 4K Blu-ray players remain in production including possible 2K Blu-ray players. This is another negative blow to the 4K Blu-ray format with no computer operating system supporting the disc format. But at least for the standard 2K Blu-ray format over 1.4 billion Windows PC’s are supported, including the old Windows Vista and Windows 7 operating system.

Quote

“This is a tough decision, but we have decided to cease the UHD BD playback features and the corresponding online authentication in the latest version of PowerDVD 22 and PowerDVD 365 after October, 2023. As a result, UHD BDs will become unplayable in PowerDVD.”

https://www.cyberlink.com/support-ce...ntent?id=28347

What is most sad, is that by and large most people simply don't care. It certainly was a convenient option that was taken away.

Originally Posted by BijouMan

Would it still work in PowerDVD 21 and earlier on the machines that had SGX? Pioneer still includes PowerDVD 14 with its drives.

In order to legally playback a 4K UHD disc on PC, the requirements list now is almost insurmountable:
* Need to be a 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, or 10th generation Intel CPU *with* onboard GPU (not all Intel models, such as those that end with KF, have this)
* Motherboard needs to have an onboard video output, and you have to use this output when playing back discs (instead of your graphics card, for instance)
* Motherboard needs to support SGX and have a BIOS version where it is able to be enabled (not all do, even in above gens)
* Need to use a version of Windows that is old, out-of-date, and vulnerable to security exploits, that supports SGX and automatic updates disabled
* Need to use a monitor that supports exactly 3840x2160 resolution
* Both monitor input and motherboard video output need to support HDCP 2.2
* Need to use old version of PowerDVD that supports 4K UHD discs
* Need a BDROM drive that supports 4K UHD discs

As you can see, you might as well just forget about it because the laundry list is so long its not even worth it.

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

If newer discs use newer AACS versions, then how come people with the OPPO machines (released in 2017) are still able to play the latest discs? The final update was back in 2019. In the early days of the format, they were talking about discs that would require online authentication the first time they were played on a given machine, but as far as I can tell, no such disc was ever released.

It depends on if the player keys have been revoked. That has happened to PowerDVD in the past, and it's possible they'll be revoked again in the future, either because they've been compromised or as a preventative measure in case they're currently being used but nobody has noticed.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by Ruined

What is most sad, is that by and large most people simply don't care. It certainly was a convenient option that was taken away.



In order to legally playback a 4K UHD disc on PC, the requirements list now is almost insurmountable:
* Need to be a 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, or 10th generation Intel CPU *with* onboard GPU (not all Intel models, such as those that end with KF, have this)
* Motherboard needs to have an onboard video output, and you have to use this output when playing back discs (instead of your graphics card, for instance)
* Motherboard needs to support SGX and have a BIOS version where it is able to be enabled (not all do, even in above gens)
* Need to use a version of Windows that is old, out-of-date, and vulnerable to security exploits, that supports SGX and automatic updates disabled
* Need to use a monitor that supports exactly 3840x2160 resolution
* Both monitor input and motherboard video output need to support HDCP 2.2
* Need to use old version of PowerDVD that supports 4K UHD discs
* Need a BDROM drive that supports 4K UHD discs

As you can see, you might as well just forget about it because the laundry list is so long its not even worth it.

I would assume that the vast majority of non-Apple machines sold from 2016 to 2020 had the required computing hardware, such as the onboard GPU. All you would have needed was a UHD Blu-ray-capable disc drive. The only time you wouldn't have had an onboard GPU was if you either chose AMD instead of Intel or used or built a machine with a server-based CPU which not many people needed or wanted.

There was a video on YouTube of someone unboxing one of these disc drives and using it to play the UHD Blu-ray of Predator on a pretty typical higher-end laptop of the time, but it appears to have been taken down.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

I would assume that the vast majority of non-Apple machines sold from 2016 to 2020 had the required computing hardware, such as the onboard GPU. All you would have needed was a UHD Blu-ray-capable disc drive. The only time you wouldn't have had an onboard GPU was if you either chose AMD instead of Intel or used or built a machine with a server-based CPU which not many people needed or wanted.

There was a video on YouTube of someone unboxing one of these disc drives and using it to play the UHD Blu-ray of Predator on a pretty typical higher-end laptop of the time, but it appears to have been taken down.

Problem is even if you technically had the right hardware AFAIK there was never any official 4K UHD disc software made for Mac. For the playback to work it requires the entire chain of both hardware and software I specified in my previous post.

I am of course speaking of 100% legal methods and not ones that involve using grey market decryption software

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

I would assume that the vast majority of non-Apple machines sold from 2016 to 2020 had the required computing hardware, such as the onboard GPU. All you would have needed was a UHD Blu-ray-capable disc drive. The only time you wouldn't have had an onboard GPU was if you either chose AMD instead of Intel or used or built a machine with a server-based CPU which not many people needed or wanted.

*sigh* We went over this a million times when you were upset that your MBP couldn't (legally) play 4K Blus. If the spec isn't met, it won't happen. If nobody's willing to pay for the work required to getting a new method licensed, it won't get done. If orgs like NVidia and Apple refuse to play ball and help out, especially when it potentially involved getting deep into security features that may not be documented publicly, it's not gonna happen. The BDA refuses to license solutions that put the keys in "open" memory. Until that changes, legal playback is now officially dead on PCs.

There was a video on YouTube of someone unboxing one of these disc drives and using it to play the UHD Blu-ray of Predator on a pretty typical higher-end laptop of the time, but it appears to have been taken down.

They played a rip or a normal Blu, the latter possibly using DVDGo or whatever that one licensed Mac player is called. That's it.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by apollo828

*sigh* We went over this a million times when you were upset that your MBP couldn't (legally) play 4K Blus. If the spec isn't met, it won't happen. If nobody's willing to pay for the work required to getting a new method licensed, it won't get done. If orgs like NVidia and Apple refuse to play ball and help out, especially when it potentially involved getting deep into security features that may not be documented publicly, it's not gonna happen. The BDA refuses to license solutions that put the keys in "open" memory. Until that changes, legal playback is now officially dead on PCs.

They played a rip or a normal Blu, the latter possibly using DVDGo or whatever that one licensed Mac player is called. That's it.

The computer wasn't an Apple machine. The person played it through PowerDVD.

[apollo828]

Okay? PowerDVD plays rips (although I'm not 100% sure about 4K, which may be forced through the SGX decryption abomination), and it plays regular Blus too. Weren't you the one who posted some video of some guy who swore up & down that DVDGo was playing a 4K disc, only to have it turn out that it was a normal Blu? If so, your track record in this regard isn't exactly stellar. I'll take the word of countless people who know how this stuff works, and even random people on forums who try everything under the sun when trying to play their discs, over one video that has, conveniently enough, disappeared.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by apollo828

Okay? PowerDVD plays rips (although I'm not 100% sure about 4K, which may be forced through the SGX decryption abomination), and it plays regular Blus too. Weren't you the one who posted some video of some guy who swore up & down that DVDGo was playing a 4K disc, only to have it turn out that it was a normal Blu? If so, your track record in this regard isn't exactly stellar. I'll take the word of countless people who know how this stuff works, and even random people on forums who try everything under the sun when trying to play their discs, over one video that has, conveniently enough, disappeared.

That was someone else who made that video. He was trying to find out what would happen if he hooked up one of these disc drives to a non-disc drive PlayStation 5. He "tested" the drive with his MacBook Pro (in Macgo) before taking it to the PS5. I eventually noticed it was the Blu-ray because the UHD of the film used (Black Panther) has more languages to choose from. That video is still up.

But the video I am talking about in this post was an unboxing of one of the UHD-capable Pioneer drives. He hooked up the drive to his laptop, which was not an Apple machine, and used PowerDVD to play the UHD of Predator. I cannot find that video anymore.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by apollo828

You must never tire of saying completely nonsensical things. "Official" UHD drives are just BDXL drives with some firmware tweaks, like bus encryption. That's it. So long as manufacturers make BDXL drives, discs will be readable. Official playback may not be possible but I'm not flogging that dead horse again.

I owned a Pioneer BDXL BD-ROM drive in 2015 and it would not read 4K Blu-ray discs. A few years later I had to buy a Pioneer BD-ROM drive with the official “Ultra HD Blu-ray” logo in order for the drive to read 4K Blu-ray files that the Windows operating system could see. But then since my year 2015 X99 motherboard lacked SGX technolgoy I could not playback the 4K Blu-ray discs on a Windows PC.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

Would it still work in PowerDVD 21 and earlier on the machines that had SGX? Pioneer still includes PowerDVD 14 with its drives.

As long as you have working SGX setup and do not uninstall PowerDVD Ultra 17 through 22 it should work fine in theory for 4K Blu-ray discs. But if new AACS security keys are issued for a new release then most likely you will not be able to play that 4K Blu-ray disc since the company said they are no longer supporting PowerDVD Ultra 22 (and prior versions) with updates for 4K Blu-ray and Blu-ray 3D playback. Starting with PowerDVD 17 Ultra in the year 2017 was the first time 4K Blu-ray discs was supported on Windows PC’s.

If PowerDVD 23 Ultra is released next year then the software will not support 4K Blu-ray discs, but only 2K Blu-ray, DVD, and audio CD’s. If the day every comes when Cyberlink stops supporting 2K Blu-ray discs (standard Blu-ray’s) then I am going to stop buying the software. There is also a possibility that PowerDVD 22 Ultra might be the last physical optical media player for a Windows PC. Will just have to wait and see what happens.

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

I owned a Pioneer BDXL BD-ROM drive in 2015 and it would not read 4K Blu-ray discs.

Pioneer reportedly had a bad habit of labeling players as supporting BDXL and then gimping the firmware such that they didn't read BDXL discs after all. You can read an old BD spec for yourself and see that UHD discs are essentially BDXL discs, which is why real BDXL drives can read them just fine.

A few years later I had to buy a Pioneer BD-ROM drive with the official “Ultra HD Blu-ray” logo in order for the drive to read 4K Blu-ray files that the Windows operating system could see.

You could've bought plenty of other drives and read the discs. Official playback wouldn't have been allowed but that's a different ball of wax.