Possession 4K UHD (1981) Umbrella

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by OutOfBoose

Same non-HDR master?

Yeah that one is the official "director-approved" 4K master according to the rights owners.

[JRcanReid]

I'm about 30 minutes in with the Umbrella 4K and so far I don't see a dramatic difference between this and the Mondo Vision DigiPack, either in detail or the overall look. It doesn't look bad or anything, just not a huge spike in quality.

Two spots where it looks "4K" is the blue carpet where Sam Neil is talking on the orange phone in the living room, and the close up of the child playing in the bathtub in the foreground while the parents look on from the background. Disc looks good, just not a game-changer so far...

[Lutz]

Was there a big PQ difference between the Mondo blu ray and the old Second Sight one? I have the SS and watched it last year after upgrading from a 55” Panasonic plasma to a 77” Sony OLED. I remember watching it between a lot of newer Vinegar Syndrome titles and comparing it to those modern 1080p discs I thought the PQ on POSSESSION was really showing its age. Hard to believe that a 4K disc wouldn’t be a big uptick even without HDR.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by JRcanReid

I'm about 30 minutes in with the Umbrella 4K and so far I don't see a dramatic difference between this and the Mondo Vision DigiPack, either in detail or the overall look. It doesn't look bad or anything, just not a huge spike in quality.

Two spots where it looks "4K" is the blue carpet where Sam Neil is talking on the orange phone in the living room, and the close up of the child playing in the bathtub in the foreground while the parents look on from the background. Disc looks good, just not a game-changer so far...

Originally Posted by Lutz

Was there a big PQ difference between the Mondo blu ray and the old Second Sight one? I have the SS and watched it last year after upgrading from a 55” Panasonic plasma to a 77” Sony OLED. I remember watching it between a lot of newer Vinegar Syndrome titles and comparing it to those modern 1080p discs I thought the PQ on POSSESSION was really showing its age. Hard to believe that a 4K disc wouldn’t be a big uptick even without HDR.

you can compare them on caps a holic, its fairly accurate since the 4K is SDR

Mondo vs Second Sight
https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?d1=4224&d2=3182&c=1332

Mondo vs LCQF/Umbrella 4K
https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?d1=4224&d2=15476&c=1332

Second Sight 1080p vs LCQF/Umbrella 4K
https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?d1=3182&d2=15476&c=1332

[chetripley80]

Originally Posted by scohenmarinetech

This release uses the BT.709 container instead of the BT.2020 standard for 4K content, similar to Umbrella's releases of The Last Wave and Razorback. They need to stop this.

I'm uneducated about the differences. Does this impact playback or region-locking?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by scohenmarinetech

This release uses the BT.709 container instead of the BT.2020 standard for 4K content, similar to Umbrella's releases of The Last Wave and Razorback. They need to stop this.

Uhh, no.

BT709 is the correct way to encode SDR on a 4K UHD. The official 4K Possession restoration that debut theatrically in 2021, the same one on this disc, was completed in SDR. BT2020 is only in 4K UHD spec for HDR content, and hence HDR content is the only appropriate place to use BT2020. You could encode SDR in an HDR container, but the minute differences in colorspace are not worth this for the massive problems it causes the tonemapping on some televisions to tonemap HDR to SDR (often too dark), resulting in inconsistent presentation, bad reviews, and people not buying the release.

In summary, Umbrella made the correct technical choice for this master.

[Jr7936]

I just received mine in the mail today. I have the le chat que fume ultimate edition as well. I just assumed that the umbrella edition was going to be just as big as the french version. I was not expecting a tiny compact collectors edition
I have to say I like the presentation of the French version compared to the umbrella version, but I think I will want to switch out the discs, but I will have to look into that more.

Overall though if I never would have seen the french ultimate edition I would have been over the moon with the presentation of this release.

Also on the press sheet on the back of the umbrella release they spelled umbrella wrong. It says only available from the Umbrealla webstore

[George.P]

Originally Posted by Jr7936

Also on the press sheet on the back of the umbrella release they spelled umbrella wrong. It says only available from the Umbrealla webstore

That's just the Aussie phonetic spelling...

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Jr7936

I just received mine in the mail today. I have the le chat que fume ultimate edition as well. I just assumed that the umbrella edition was going to be just as big as the french version. I was not expecting a tiny compact collectors edition
I have to say I like the presentation of the French version compared to the umbrella version, but I think I will want to switch out the discs, but I will have to look into that more.

Overall though if I never would have seen the french ultimate edition I would have been over the moon with the presentation of this release.

Also on the press sheet on the back of the umbrella release they spelled umbrella wrong. It says only available from the Umbrealla webstore

Is the actual disc basically the same a/v encode?

[Jr7936]

I haven't checked anything yet, so im not sure

Originally Posted by Ruined

Is the actual disc basically the same a/v encode?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Jr7936

I haven't checked anything yet, so im not sure

OK. Just as a counterpoint, I personally prefer the regular-height boxsets like Umbrella uses over ones taller than a standard DVD case, like A24 and LCQF sometimes use. mainly because, they dont fit right on shelves and then cant be sorted normally with other releases.

[George.P]

Originally Posted by scohenmarinetech

This release uses the BT.709 container instead of the BT.2020 standard for 4K content, similar to Umbrella's releases of The Last Wave and Razorback. They need to stop this.

Smoking Cat is BT.709 as well.

[jacobsever]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Mondo vs LCQF/Umbrella 4K
https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?d1=4224&d2=15476&c=1332

Is it just me or does the Mondo look like...a lot better?

[Filmmaker]

Well, as an owner of both, I can say that the Le Chat Que Fume 4K has a healthier bitrate over the Umbrella (sometimes by just 3-4 Mbps, sometimes, like the early scene of Sam Neill handing in his report to his superiors, by literally double the amount of the Umbrella), but I also have to say I’m having a devil of a time making out any actual discernible difference between the two to the naked eye. So this one seems to come down to a difference which makes no actual difference. On a packaging level, though, it’s no contest—Umbrella clobbers Le Chat Que Fume.

[Lutz]

Originally Posted by jacobsever

Is it just me or does the Mondo look like...a lot better?

What you’re seeing is just that the Mondo blu ray has super pumped colours and the new 4K is more subdued/desaturated. My first viewing and go to disc for years was the old Anchor Bay DVD which had the more subdued colours and so I’m glad to see the movie go back to that. Hated the blu rays.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by jacobsever

Is it just me or does the Mondo look like...a lot better?

Well, that really depends what "better" means to you. If you just mean your own subjective opinion, then only you can decide which looks "better."

But, people are generally inclined to like a "neutral" presentation better in general, and the mondo is closest of the releases to "neutral." However, neutral isn't always equivalent to how the film is supposed to be colored. One example of this, could be Cutthroat Island. When this 4K disc came out, many people reference that scene I just linked as "revisionist piss yellow" on the 4K, and stated the Blu-ray looked far better. However, this movie takes place prior to the invention of incandescent light bulbs, and all of the light in the room in that shot is candlelight. Candlelight produces a very yellow light, and there is no way it could reproduce the more neutral white balance of the blu-ray, which more resembles modern studio lighting. So, while the 4k does look extremely yellow skewed here, that would be much closer to the color temperature of the candlelight lighting source in that that scene, and assuming filmmakers wanted to be period correct the 4K would be closer to how its supposed to look.

With Possession, its tough to tell how its "supposed" to look. There have been 3+ very different looking versions of the film that were marketed as director approved. However, from being in this hobby a long time, one thing I can say is that this is not surprising, as filmmakers are generally highly unreliable in maintaining a consistent look for their films over time - sometimes inadvertently, sometimes deliberately. Advances in technology also sometimes pressure technicians working on the film the change it in ways they think modern consumers will like better in hopes their release will sell better than the competition's. For this release, one label even claimed the film had always previously had a blue tint since inception like the LCQF/Umbrella release, and that other labels removed it to bring it closer to neutral for the Blu-ray.

Therefore, as the restoration team generally the best way attempt to determine how a film is "supposed" to look, if your benchmark is how it looked in theaters when first released, is to review a variety of historical elements - OCN, prints, and any other info available during the time of the initial release. Doing so sidesteps unreliable human intervention / changes made by modern technicians meddling with the release. And, this is the exact process Le Chat Qui Fume followed with their release of Possession.

So, in summary, I'd wager even if you subjectively don't like it as much, the Le Chat Qui Fume / Umbrella 4K UHD is likely to be closest to how the initial theatrical release looked out of all of the discs released, as none of the others followed such a regimented historical research-based method. And then, your decision of which to buy would depend on whether you want the one you subjectively like better, or the one closer to the initial theatrical release.

[jacobsever]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Well, that really depends what "better" means to you. If you just mean your own subjective opinion, then only you can decide which looks "better."

But, people are generally inclined to like a "neutral" presentation better in general, and the mondo is closest of the releases to "neutral." However, neutral isn't always equivalent to how the film is supposed to be colored.

I know color grading is subjective. I'm not really talking about the color whatsoever...but the sharpness/clarity/detail work.

I'm a photographer who primarily shoots on film. The UHD from Umbrella looks super super soft. Like they went in Photoshop and slid the "texture" and "clarity" way down. Whereas the BD from Mondo is much sharper, textured, and detailed. With more visible grain too (which is something I prefer).

Take this eye for example:

[Show spoiler]

Absolutely baffling to me that to top image is a 1080p blu ray from like 10+ years ago...and the bottom is the 4K.

Same with this...and add on top that the highlights are completely blown out on the UHD image.

[Show spoiler]

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by jacobsever

I know color grading is subjective. I'm not really talking about the color whatsoever...but the sharpness/clarity/detail work.

I'm a photographer who primarily shoots on film. The UHD from Umbrella looks super super soft. Like they went in Photoshop and slid the "texture" and "clarity" way down. Whereas the BD from Mondo is much sharper, textured, and detailed. With more visible grain too (which is something I prefer).

Take this eye for example:

[Show spoiler]

Absolutely baffling to me that to top image is a 1080p blu ray from like 10+ years ago...and the bottom is the 4K.

Same with this...and add on top that the highlights are completely blown out on the UHD image.

[Show spoiler]

You are seeing edge enhancement and boosted contrast and confusing that for actual detail.

e.g.: that same shot
https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=3&x...8&l=0&i=4&go=1

another shot:
https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=3&x...3&l=0&i=9&go=1

The 4K clearly has better grain and natural fine detail.

Also, the highlights being toned down on the blu-ray are likely a new thing that was done for the Blu-ray format because it was a trend at the time of release. Transfers of this movie prior to the Blu-ray had highlights of similar strength to the 4K, and Le Chat Qui Fume tuned the picture of the 4k restoration to release prints and the OCN - so the highlight strength of the 4K is likely how it was originally, and then on the Blu-ray the technicians toned down the highlights, adjusted the colors to neutral, added edge enhancement, and boosted contrast to make the film look more modern. Again, you may prefer the edge enhanced version with toned down highlights, but thats not necessarily how its supposed to look if the benchmark is how it looked when it first came out. Still if you like that look better, then buy that version.

[Brian81]

What? I thought bringing picture info back into the highlights was the CURRENT thing (think HDR), not some trend back in the BD era like you are saying. I feel like you have that backwards? I don't understand what you are saying. You are comparing 2K and 4K masters, the colors aren't that different outside of the highlights being blown out on the 4K and the colors aren't really any more neutral on that BD. The old DVD master was terrible, looks like neither release here...4K or the BD... Zulawski was not happy with it, why are you treating it like a reference? Thing had no blue tones to it, was white and brownish. Literally the ONLY thing it had in common was blown out contrast. Again pulling "you may like that but that is not how it is supposed to look" about the one approved by the filmmaker when he was actually alive. According to Zulawski, it was.


You are zooming 400% on eyeball between an HD edition and a 4K. The colors of Neill screaming on the bike are barely any different.


The topic of blown out contrast came up in the restoration stages of that 2K/HD master. I believe it was rejected over it. It was detailed on the Land of Whimsy blog before it was even released. Maybe you should get in touch with those who communicated with Zulawski.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Brian81

What? I thought bringing picture info back into the highlights was the CURRENT thing (think HDR), not some trend back in the BD era like you are saying.

Trend of recovering highlight detail started long before 4K UHD. In fact, when a title was released on Blu-ray a second time, that was often one of the main selling points.

I feel like you have that backwards? I don't understand what you are saying. You are comparing 2K and 4K masters, the colors aren't that different outside of the highlights being blown out on the 4K and the colors aren't really any more neutral on that BD. The old DVD master was terrible, looks like neither release here...4K or the BD... Zulawski was not happy with it, why are you treating it like a reference? Thing had no blue tones to it, was white and brownish. Literally the ONLY thing it had in common was blown out contrast. Again pulling "you may like that but that is not how it is supposed to look" about the one approved by the filmmaker when he was actually alive. According to Zulawski, it was.


You are zooming 400% on eyeball between an HD edition and a 4K. The colors of Neill screaming on the bike are barely any different.


The topic of blown out contrast came up in the restoration stages of that 2K/HD master. I believe it was rejected over it. It was detailed on the Land of Whimsy blog before it was even released. Maybe you should get in touch with those who communicated with Zulawski.

Regarding zoom, that was aimed at the previous poster's comment that the Blu-ray had more fine detail, which is clearly not the case. The blu-ray definitely has some boosting and/or EE going on, which you can see very clearly in the bike picture, and the grain is not as fine.

Regarding what Zulawski says and how its supposed to look, that depends on your perspective. If Friedkin says the exorcism scene of The Exorcist is supposed to have bled out fuzzy looking color, do you also agree that is how The Exorcist is supposed to look? If so, then asking Zulawski how things are supposed to look 40 years later might be a valid approach - though we already have 3 very different looks that were all director approved in a fairly short period of time, so that is a bit suspect.

But, if your goal is to get the film looking in the same way it did upon initial theatrical release, albeit in higher quality, then what Zulawski says in recent times isn't really relevant assuming you have good archival materials to reference. In this case, that is exactly what LCQF did - they went back to original prints, OCN, archival materials, and used that as the reference instead of human input - so their color balance, highlight level, etc, is likely the closest out of the batch to the original theatrical look as there was no recent human interference. As mentioned above, if there is anything I learned from collecting films is that filmmaker input is rarely ever consistent over time (and we can see this for this movie, comparing Mondo, SS, and Umbrella which all look quite a bit different yet all "approved"). So, its not so much that pre-HD masters are a reference as a whole, but it is worth noting the toned down highlights were a new thing for the HD master, while previous masters (and the 4K) did not have said toned down highlights - thus the toned down highlights may be "revisionist" per se. Personally, looking at the highlights in that first CAH scene, the blown out highlights make more sense to me from a lighting perspective given the glare on objects in the room - the dimness in the window of the Mondo isn't consistent with the glare on objects in the room, such as the desk - how are the desk highlights "blown out" but the source lighting from the window isn't?