Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas 4K UHD (Criterion Collection)

[bradnoyes]

Impulsively bought this in the B&N sale even though I already have the Arrow. I was going to sell the Arrow along with a batch of discs I listed today, but I couldn't bring myself to do it. This would be the first time I've kept two versions of the same movie, but it might be worth it for this.

Was going to watch this tonight but my copy of Chinatown unexpectedly showed up today too. Who knows what I'll watch now. Probably Rambo III.

[PowellPressburger]

Originally Posted by bradnoyes

Impulsively bought this in the B&N sale even though I already have the Arrow. I was going to sell the Arrow along with a batch of discs I listed today, but I couldn't bring myself to do it.

I also picked up the Criterion and already have the Arrow just in case I want ti watch the Criterion color timing but no flippin way would I give up my Arrow 4K.

Hold onto it. No regrets.

[bradnoyes]

Originally Posted by PowellPressburger

I also picked up the Criterion and already have the Arrow just in case I want ti watch the Criterion color timing but no flippin way would I give up my Arrow 4K.

Hold onto it. No regrets.

I’ll be keeping the Arrow. I just finished watching the Criterion. I flipped through the Arrow disc afterwards and it’s not night and day but I do prefer that disc. It’s not just the color differences in a few scenes. It just felt a bit more vibrant to me. Might still keep them both, though.

[Telemachus]

Arrow ftw

[JohnCarpenterFan]

After watching the Criterion UHD and then doing some back and forth comparisons with the Arrow UHD, I think I prefer the look of the Criterion. I feel like the Criterion is a completely different experience from the Arrow. For one thing, the grade in many places seems incredibly reminiscent of several surrealist paintings and I actually have a good idea of what filters and lighting choices were used in certain scenes now. There are points in the Arrow where it just feels like I'm watching actors on a set with stylish lighting whereas watching the Criterion I feel like I've been sucked into some strange otherworldly place. I also feel like sense of depth is increased greatly with Criterion's grade such as the opening scene in the desert whereas everything seems flat comparatively on the Arrow UHD.

After reading about Gilliam's color blindness and how he has to rely on those doing the grade to get it right, I have to wonder why a reference print seemingly wasn't used to assist with grading before this.

[iaragorn1]

Originally Posted by JohnCarpenterFan

[Show spoiler]After watching the Criterion UHD and then doing some back and forth comparisons with the Arrow UHD, I think I prefer the look of the Criterion. I feel like the Criterion is a completely different experience from the Arrow. For one thing, the grade in many places seems incredibly reminiscent of several surrealist paintings and I actually have a good idea of what filters and lighting choices were used in certain scenes now. There are points in the Arrow where it just feels like I'm watching actors on a set with stylish lighting whereas watching the Criterion I feel like I've been sucked into some strange otherworldly place. I also feel like sense of depth is increased greatly with Criterion's grade such as the opening scene in the desert whereas everything seems flat comparatively on the Arrow UHD.

After reading about Gilliam's color blindness and how he has to rely on those doing the grade to get it right, I have to wonder why a reference print seemingly wasn't used to assist with grading before this.

I saw it when it came out and recall that it had a different look. Plus MifuneFan quoted an article where the DP was talking about gels but that doesn't seem to matter. But does it have original audio and an Arrow release? And I'm being cheeky saying this, but Criterion screws up A LOT, but Arrow it's close to an automatic Pass because they don't screw up usually.

I say this as someone who has bought both of these guys 4k of Time Bandits and might end up keeping the Arrow. YMMV

[Telemachus]

The Arrow more or less looks the same as any other version of this film I've watched since DVD but it's in 4k, I really couldn't ask for anything more than that personally, so I'm content with my early adopter purchase. I would love to see the new look Criterion PQ at some point, but not enough to play musical chairs on a $35 disc or have to buy Criterion.

[slask]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Do you believe it's some coincidence that the teal colors in that scene line up near exact with the Italian Blue gels mentioned in that 1998 article? Why wold the Arrow be so blue if the gels were teal?
Can you point to me which other restorations mention using a reference print for their grading?

I'm wondering tho... Pecorini saying he used that Italian Gel for that scene, would mean teal was applied to the color palette of the whole film?
Also, as mentioned before, the prologue's color difference is much more striking than the shades of blues.

Don't get me wrong, the clues you posted are intriguing and may prove Criterion got closer to the source. I'm just tryng to figure out if all the elements match pointing in that direction.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by slask

I'm wondering tho... Pecorini saying he used that Italian Gel for that scene, would mean teal was applied to the color palette of the whole film?
Also, as mentioned before, the prologue's color difference is much more striking than the shades of blues.

Don't get me wrong, the clues you posted are intriguing and may prove Criterion got closer to the source. I'm just tryng to figure out if all the elements match pointing in that direction.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but these were the color gels that were said to be used throughout the whole film:

We did a lot of tests, mainly with Roscolux and CalColor gels.” Key selections included Roscolux fire (#19), gold rush (20), pistachio (92), chocolate (99), walnut (156), follies pink (344) and Italian blue (370), as well as CalColor red (4660) and pink (4890).

The Italian Blue one is the one predominantly used in that one overly teal scene, but it is used elsewhere in the film too along with the others mentioned. But yeah, I agree about the prologue. That seems like obvious revisionism with the Criterion release.

[WhiskeyGnome]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Absolute unmitigated nonsense. Directors do not look at the final discs, period. There's still a ways to go from a master being signed off by the talent to it ending up on disc - unless you think De Palma actually approved that first Criterion Blu of Dressed to Kill with the completely wonky geometry, but even if he'd had you'd find some way of spinning it to be the 'superior' version - and unfortunately errors can and do happen.

I know ol' Orson's been dead for a while but Criterion messed up the levels on their Blu of Citizen Kane that's in their UHD set and Arrow did the same with dear Henry; shit happens, especially with multiple deliverables in play. Same goes for the brief repeated shot, it happens a bit too easily with the digital editing used to conform new transfers and isn't solely the domain of Arrow, yes it happened on their director-approved 12 Monkeys (and went unnoticed for years) but Sony did it years ago with the Blu of Starship Troopers, Paramount did it on the Wrath of Khan remastered Blu, and there's that one that's just been discovered on Taxi Driver which is another that's been hiding in plain sight for well over a decade.

TD's 4K restoration was approved by not only Scorsese but Michael Chapman too, so if the error was there at the time then we'd have to accept that directors and DPs are fallible after all, especially as they advance in age, that they don't actually have perfick recall of every frame of a film they shot many many years ago and that these conform errors can easily be missed even at the point of approval. Even if it wasn't there, the talent does not watch or approve the final retail product so these things being introduced downstream does not invalidate any claims of director approval in any way, shape or form. Anything else is spurious whataboutery spouted by people who literally have no idea of what they're talking about.


Mr Gilliam has a strong working relationship with Arrow, as he does with Criterion, and he specifically oversaw and approved the prior Arrow SDR restoration which was done in conjunction with turbine. For logistical reasons he couldn't oversee the HDR version so they used the director-approved SDR grade as a basis, allowing for a few flourishes w/ref to WCG/HDR usage. So all the talk about it looking like it does as if it's based off of some creaky old CRT-era master or whatever is quite simply nonsense. That restored SDR version is how Mr Gilliam wanted it to look at the time that he did it, no more no less.

Criterion decided to start over for their 4K which is where variances will inevitably occur with virtually any living director who's done a new transfer five years after the last one, I don't care who they are. Whether those variances stem from the talent hewing closer to what their current preferences are, the usage of reference materials like a 35mm print, or a mixture of both, these editions all represent what the director wanted their movie to look like at that point in time. As Phil said it's a pick 'em fight, go with what you like. If people feel betterer that the Criterion is more 'authentic' then by all means luxuriate in that particular comfort blanket, but the previous SDR was director approved nonetheless so it nicely highlights the whole 'moving target' thing.

This is a good summation. I really wish people would understand that a lot of directors don't even view their past work, but they will sign off on stuff. You are lucky if they even viewed four entire scenes IMO. There are incredibly few directors who will go through every scene to benchmark the entire disc and then get back to the mastering house.

[WhiskeyGnome]

Originally Posted by secretplace

Here are comparisons between the Arrow UHD and the Criterion UHD tonemapped with bt.2390 with a target peak nits of 130 - comparisons here

And some selections for those who don't want to leave the site (Arrow first, CC second):

[Show spoiler]

The grade is radically different throughout most of the film. The CC has the teal push and warmness that you probably expect from a contemporary 4K restoration, but I'm usually a defender of that look given a reference is usually used for new restorations vs. whatever was done previously (see: Three Colors trilogy). Ultimately it'll be up to the viewer to decide which they prefer. I do think that the flatness in the heavy chroma scenes like #15 is concerning - could be an encode issue. And yes prints aren't perfect (and as another commenter mentioned the final answer print would be best), but most prints I've seen lean heavily towards warm and teal. I usually like to use The Witches of Eastwick as an example, if a 4K restoration came out with a warm look similar to what we see here it would be significantly closer to the 35mm print I saw recently than the previous BD.

Importantly, NexSpec did a decent job encoding this disc (thank god). I actually don't think there's much of a difference in encode quality between the two and I might even prefer the CC in some scenes (e.g. #4 where the inner portion of Johnny Depp's left eye is more clearly delineated than on the Arrow). Because of this, I would say pick the master that you prefer and go with it. It's very fortunate that we don't have to be stuck between one disc with a good encode and one with a bad one so that there's potentially a caveat in picking the grade you prefer.

Haven't compared the audio, but the restoration notes claim that they were newly remastered: 2.0 surround from the magnetic six-track master and 5.1 from the 35 mm stems and 35 mm 5.1 DTS print master. I think the audio on the previous Arrow releases was quite nice so probably no upgrade there.

I am kinda glad they did something different here. I might as well just pick up the Criterion since I already have their bluray. I've never seen the film like this. I think the reddish tint was kinda there. I think I gravitate more toward the Arrow, but won't be getting a slip I guess now. And Criterion just went APE with theirs lol. I do like a lot of scenes though. I'm not sure how to feel with this one.

Getting both to watch one film every ten years is a little much.

Arrow a little too red and dark for me vs old BD: https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x...6&l=1&i=0&go=1

Again while massively better in detail, it seems like the Arrow almost went too deep on color saturation with the reds. They take over the whole film like the old Criterion did not: https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x...9&l=1&i=9&go=1

Scene massively changed in new Criterion but the same on the old BD and Arrow 4K: https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x...3&l=1&i=3&go=1

Old Criterion disc sometimes has a brighter look in the first scenes. Arrow almost makes it look like an 80s disc with that red push, but I have no idea what it will look like on my set either.

The old Criterion bluray to me pretty normal. The difference in detail is staggering on Arrow. Maybe just a bit too red though. I'm gonna have to rob a 4K store at this point. Jesus.

Some people say they really like the Criterion disc? It's so different I don't even know what to think anymore. Looks completely like a regrade. I would be very hard pressed to believe the Criterion is the more accurate version after all this time, but some shots clearly just look better to me in it including the main shot of Depp there below. Would a Universal print really reveal this much color change?

[lazerface]

Sold my Arrow version after watching the Criterion, this is the definitive release of Fear and Loathing

[WhiskeyGnome]

Originally Posted by lazerface

Sold my Arrow version after watching the Criterion, this is the definitive release of Fear and Loathing

Why do you say that? I don't think I wanna pay top price for an Arrow without a slip, but it seems more faithful for sure, but I do kinda like that big comparison I reposted above. Some of those shots looks amazing on the Criterion now. Whether it is accurate though I have no idea.

Did Criterion really find a print that exposed these changes?

[WhiskeyGnome]

https://slow.pics/c/L3pBoKYt

So this classic shot. I can't help but think the Criterion is massively better on this one. It's how I remember the marketing doing this shot honestly. The Arrow just looks dead and lifeless and so red.

I think for this alone I would probably side with the Criterion. I just can't really do that red push. I have the old Criterion to keep anyway.

[lazerface]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyGnome

Why do you say that? I don't think I wanna pay top price for an Arrow without a slip, but it seems more faithful for sure, but I do kinda like that big comparison I reposted above. Some of those shots looks amazing on the Criterion now. Whether it is accurate though I have no idea.

Did Criterion really find a print that exposed these changes?

I have zero clue, all I know if I prefer the Criterion color grade and special features, no reason to have 2 versions in my collection

[WhiskeyGnome]

Originally Posted by lazerface

I have zero clue, all I know if I prefer the Criterion color grade and special features, no reason to have 2 versions in my collection

Yeah I hear ya. The more I look at the Arrow, the more I just think it's too damn red. While the Cri is way different than anything before, some of the shots just look so much nicer now.

[lazerface]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyGnome

Yeah I hear ya. The more I look at the Arrow, the more I just think it's too damn red. While the Cri is way different than anything before, some of the shots just look so much nicer now.

I agree, the pic you posted above is the perfect example

[WhiskeyGnome]

Originally Posted by lazerface

I agree, this pic you posted above is the perfect example

Yeah going through the detailed comparison above, there is even one shot where the Arrow is a touch greener for some odd reason. But then most of it almost dissolves into the red push when compared to this version. I am not sure which is more accurate, but that red push on some of these scenes just looks awful. I don't think it ever looked all that great, but at least the old Criterion had a brighter gamma and did not descend into the depths of red.

I think maybe a few scenes have a bit too much teal, but overall yeah I am going with the Criterion on this one. It's not like watching my old disc will kill me if I need a red push.

[Geoff D]

I am surprised that there's no site-wide pushback re: the teal. Never thought I'd see the day (and that's not aimed at anyone in particular, just an observation).

[JohnCarpenterFan]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but these were the color gels that were said to be used throughout the whole film:



The Italian Blue one is the one predominantly used in that one overly teal scene, but it is used elsewhere in the film too along with the others mentioned. But yeah, I agree about the prologue. That seems like obvious revisionism with the Criterion release.

I wouldn't be too sure about that at all, especially since the Criterion UHD seems to be the only home video release that we know actually used a film source as a color reference. The previously posted comments about Gilliam being color blind and having to rely on others to get things right isn't encouraging either.

I have seen a number of home video releases where day-for-night shots were left uncorrected or monochromatic color shots were incorrectly presented as B&W; this is sadly an indicator of how true accuracy was never really a real concern to begin with, and that most home video grades were based on the whims of colorists or largely copied previous masters which may also have been inaccurate (as they often were). Even the B&W prologue on the Arrow UHD and previous releases isn't true B&W and has a slight beige appearance. Original 35mm prints of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas are still being shown; all one should really need to do is attend a showing and see for themselves.