Der Untergang 4K UHD (2004)

[Theodor]

Originally Posted by nicwood

Andrew Woo has already confirmed that it's DTS-HD HR.

Why complain about DTS-HD-HR, when it sounds as fantastic as it is with THE DOWNFALL?
I bet no one would hear a difference to DTS-HD-MA (if there would exist a DTS-HD-MA-Mix of the movie) when heard side by side. The DTS-HD-HR-Mix of DOWNFALL is based on an example for brillant soundmastering. And the lossy codec doesn't take anything away from that.

[nicwood]

Originally Posted by Theodor

Why complain about DTS-HD-HR, when it sounds as fantastic as it is with THE DOWNFALL?
I bet no one would hear a difference to DTS-HD-MA (if there would exist a DTS-HD-MA-Mix of the movie) when heard side by side. The DTS-HD-HR-Mix of DOWNFALL is based on an example for brillant soundmastering. And the lossy codec doesn't take anything away from that.

This is not the main issue. It's the simple and very sad fact that Constantin Film are so disinterested in their physical media that they can't be bothered to do their work properly and encode this "brilliant" mix losslessly. Blu-ray is around since 2006 and 18 years later, Constantin's physical media "experts" seemingly learned nothing and are still hitting the same buttons they've hit since they started releasing Blu-rays. There doesn't appear to be another logical explanation to this phenomenon, otherwise they would have improved like all other studios and labels who tested out the waters 18 years ago.

Constantin have certainly realised that physical releases have become niche but they're out of touch with what these comparatively small groups of people who still buy that stuff actually want and/or demand. They were also repeatedly made aware of what they're doing with their audio and encoding but they just don't care. It's about putting these discs out as cheaply as they can get.

[Theodor]

Originally Posted by nicwood

This is not the main issue. It's the simple and very sad fact that Constantin Film are so disinterested in their physical media that they can't be bothered to do their work properly and encode this "brilliant" mix losslessly. Blu-ray is around since 2006 and 18 years later, Constantin's physical media "experts" seemingly learned nothing and are still hitting the same buttons they've hit since they started releasing Blu-rays. There doesn't appear to be another logical explanation to this phenomenon, otherwise they would have improved like all other studios and labels who tested out the waters 18 years ago.

Constantin have certainly realised that physical releases have become niche but they're out of touch with what these comparatively small groups of people who still buy that stuff actually want and/or demand. They were also repeatedly made aware of what they're doing with their audio and encoding but they just don't care. It's about putting these discs out as cheaply as they can get.

So you're only interested in the principle and not really in whether the sound is really good?
Why change something that is almost perfectly encoded? Simply insisting on the “lossless” codec leads in the wrong direction, imo. We all want GOOD sound, right? It doesn't matter which codec is used to achieve this. There are an incredible number of mixes that sound bad despite the losless codec. The English Disney soundtracks of recent years are a (not) good-sounding example of this. I don't understand why people are now baselessly and very drastically picking on a distributor who, in the case of DER UNTERGANG, has an excellent mix in their hands. Moreover, it misses the point of the actual discussion about achieving the best possible sound. And the mix is responsible for that, not the codec.

[Dino-Killer 912]

Originally Posted by Pieter V

They labeled the audio of the Blu-ray as DTS-HD HR 5.1, while the UHD audio as DTS-HD 5.1 with no HR or MA. Hmm... it doesn't seem like they completely don't understand the differences.

[nicwood]

Originally Posted by Theodor

So you're only interested in the principle and not really in whether the sound is really good?
Why change something that is almost perfectly encoded? Simply insisting on the “lossless” codec leads in the wrong direction, imo. We all want GOOD sound, right? It doesn't matter which codec is used to achieve this. There are an incredible number of mixes that sound bad despite the losless codec. The English Disney soundtracks of recent years are a (not) good-sounding example of this. I don't understand why people are now baselessly and very drastically picking on a distributor who, in the case of DER UNTERGANG, has an excellent mix in their hands. Moreover, it misses the point of the actual discussion about achieving the best possible sound. And the mix is responsible for that, not the codec.

Of course we all want the best sound and you're right that the mix is likely adequately protected in the lossy container. You're also rightfully criticising Disney. It's just that the standards should be higher than the ones Constantin have set for themselves. Sure, they could encode the exact same lossy HR mix into a lossless container and no one would bother but seeing that they don't even do that and re-use whatever template they had available is just sad. A new edition means an opportunity to improve what was done originally and all possible options should be evaluated, including Downfall's audio mix.

I'm not sure how many other future home video editions you're expecting of the film and especially coming out of Germany. This may have been the last opportunity to truly do the film justice across all areas of concern. (Picture compression is another topic where Constantin is far from ideal, as made painfully obvious with The Name of the Rose).

I'm sure Shout will put out the film in 4K one day and I can import it, yet the majority of buyers doesn't and as good as the mix is, they're stuck with a half-baked product.

[Robojaws]

Since it's only the much shorter theatrical version anyway, my interest in this release is almost non-existent. But I hope Constantin will at least get the picture quality right, in case they'll release the TV version at one point further down the line.

[Theodor]

Originally Posted by nicwood

Of course we all want the best sound and you're right that the mix is likely adequately protected in the lossy container. You're also rightfully criticising Disney. It's just that the standards should be higher than the ones Constantin have set for themselves. Sure, they could encode the exact same lossy HR mix into a lossless container and no one would bother but seeing that they don't even do that and re-use whatever template they had available is just sad. A new edition means an opportunity to improve what was done originally and all possible options should be evaluated, including Downfall's audio mix.

I'm not sure how many other future home video editions you're expecting of the film and especially coming out of Germany. This may have been the last opportunity to truly do the film justice across all areas of concern. (Picture compression is another topic where Constantin is far from ideal, as made painfully obvious with The Name of the Rose).

I'm sure Shout will put out the film in 4K one day and I can import it, yet the majority of buyers doesn't and as good as the mix is, they're stuck with a half-baked product.

But, come on: The product is not "half baked" because of a lossy compression, that would not sound any other, if it was compressed as DTS-HD-MA.

It would be half baked, if either picture quality or sound quality would be bad.
Let's say the movie looks terrific. With brillant encoding and perfect representation of film grain, colors etc. - would you complain it as "half baked", if they would manage to deliver a perfect encode despite a bitrate that would only be 'round 50-60 Mbps.
Of course you can set it up higher. But where is the need to do so, when you can achieve it with less?

I do see the point, you want so make clear about Constantin "not caring". And maybe you're right about that. But i don't agree with you in using such strong words for the compression of a soundmix that sounds absolut prestigious.

[nicwood]

I've now received the UHD and am honestly shocked about what product Constantin are feeding us. This is one of the worst encodes on the 4K format, no hyperbole. While I can't yet post BDInfo, I did get a glimpse at the disc size and, unbelievably, Constantin or whoever did their disc, compressed the film + everything else that's on the UHD down to 57 GB (!!!) in total. Yes, this is a BD-66 but they didn't even fill that. A refund paid this for me, otherwise it would've gone straight back.

This film is 155 minutes long, in 1.85:1 (aspect ratio thankfully corrected from the BD's 1.78) and shot on film. Fidelity in Motion could likely make this work but not a company that only releases 4K UHDs once or twice over the span of a few years.

Again, I can't make screenshots yet, so I'll try and explain. When grain is there, it's mostly buzzy and swarming around the screen in insect-like movements. As soon as things get even a little brighter, grain and fine detail is no longer visible and wiped out by the encode. When it's darker, grain is there and okay but absolutely nothing to write home about in contrast with normal and brighter moments.
With UHD and HDR, if properly presented, we can finally see films in a way where disbelief suspends that the "organic grain" we're seeing is just a pixel party. The best encodes do that, such as The Hitcher to name a recent example and it's a wonderful feeling.

Downfall is the exact opposite. We're constantly reminded that we're looking at a poor encode and a digital presentation. It's not immersive and not adequate for the film. There's no way around, it's an awful, awful encode and personally I think worse than Kino's poorest efforts. The reason being that Kino's auto encodes are serviceable when highlights aren't involved. A good example is Stalag 17, which I'm often using as one of their signature bad encodes. On this UHD, highlights are wiped out and grain cuts off razor-sharp at the border to something less bright, such as buildings or people. However, if grain is visible, it's usually rendered very sharply and precisely and in these isolated moments, the UHD looks like a DCP. I'm not praising KL here as their work is also awful but at least there is some sense of consistency in where grain is properly reproduced and where not. With Constantin and Downfall, it's all over the place and a neither/nor presentation. Grain is neither there when it's bright and buzzy in the dark.

I've compared the BD, which is the old one and the film looks better there. Due to the bad UHD encode, actual image detail isn't really worse and compression on the BD is better. Grain is there, fairly quiet and even. It's a fine presentation and the film looks more filmic and unobtrusively watchable for what it is on BD than in 4K, although the old master is obviously inferior with worse grading and traces of ringing / edge-enhancement. I haven't looked at the BD for long and don't know if there are any other issues.

The new 4K master on its own is very good and hints of that shine through here and there. @James: The film's OCN was scanned and they did a rebuild in a way that the shots without VFX were carried over scanned from the OCN and they upscaled the VFX shots from the DI. The difference is drastic as they applied a bit too much HDR to these shots which makes them look artificial and the encode just doesn't retain detail. I will try and show this in my caps once the disc unlocks. It's not a situation like The Pianist where some effects were newly remade but then again they didn't DNR the OCN shots to match the VFX. I definitely prefer the way they did it for Downfall though. If you / others have any questions about details, please ask as I've last seen the film 10 years ago and can't point towards specific scenes that may be crucial.

And one more thing re. the audio. As you can see above my post, there's been some controversy about my "harsh" comments re. Constantin and them still using DTS-HD HR. This IS a poor encode as the track is clipped when it gets loud. Either the lossy compression cut off the high frequency detail or it's a poor mix. A lossy DTS 5.1 track that's also on the disc is exactly the same as the "High Resolution" HD track. https://slow.pics/c/Hz3yr2uv.

[kmhofmann]

I have to completely agree with nicwood above, and it's no hyperbole to call this UHD encode an unmititgated disaster.

DISC INFO:
Disc Label:     Der_Untergang_UHD
Disc Size:      58,628,203,916 bytes
Protection:     AACS2
Extras:         Ultra HD
BDInfo:         0.8.0.1b

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name:           00003.MPLS
Length:         02:35:12.958 (h:m:s.ms)
Size:           58,360,547,712 bytes
Total Bitrate:  50.13 Mbps

VIDEO:

Codec                   Bitrate             Description     
---------------         -------------       -----------     
MPEG-H HEVC Video       44,999 kbps         2160p / 24 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 4:2:0 / 10 bits / Limited Range / BT.2020 / PQ / BT.2020 non-constant

AUDIO:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
---------------                 -------------   -------------   -----------     
DTS-HD High-Res Audio           German           2046 kbps      5.1 / 48 kHz /  2046 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz /  1509 kbps / 24-bit)
Dolby Digital Audio             German            224 kbps      2.0 / 48 kHz /   224 kbps / DN -31dB
Dolby Digital Audio             German            224 kbps      2.0 / 48 kHz /   224 kbps / DN -31dB
Dolby Digital Audio             German            224 kbps      2.0 / 48 kHz /   224 kbps / DN -31dB

SUBTITLES:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
---------------                 -------------   -------------   -----------     
Presentation Graphics           German          40.64 kbps      1920x1080 / 1247 Captions
Presentation Graphics           English         32.78 kbps      1920x1080 / 1306 Captions

FILES:

Name            Time In         Length          Size            Total Bitrate   
--------------- -------------   -------------   -------------   -------------   
00004.M2TS      0:00:00.000     2:35:12.958     58,360,547,712  50,133 kbps     

CHAPTERS:

Number          Time In         Length          Avg Video Rate  Max 1-Sec Rate  Max 1-Sec Time  Max 5-Sec Rate  Max 5-Sec Time  Max 10Sec Rate  Max 10Sec Time  Avg Frame Size  Max Frame Size  Max Frame Time  
------          -------------   -------------   --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  
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4               0:11:53.000     0:02:57.958     49,556 kbps     69,204 kbps     00:14:10.708    64,040 kbps     00:14:10.416    61,925 kbps     00:14:09.708    258,107 bytes   592,212 bytes   00:14:06.750    
5               0:14:50.958     0:03:59.083     40,339 kbps     68,041 kbps     00:17:24.166    57,495 kbps     00:18:07.291    55,323 kbps     00:18:05.583    210,097 bytes   745,165 bytes   00:18:07.708    
6               0:18:50.041     0:03:24.208     53,900 kbps     68,850 kbps     00:21:45.875    64,780 kbps     00:21:17.166    64,096 kbps     00:21:14.708    280,727 bytes   814,034 bytes   00:21:47.833    
7               0:22:14.250     0:04:26.041     50,646 kbps     77,250 kbps     00:22:28.375    66,810 kbps     00:23:05.625    62,484 kbps     00:24:12.041    263,782 bytes   809,842 bytes   00:22:29.416    
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10              0:37:07.458     0:03:09.625     49,073 kbps     85,197 kbps     00:37:34.458    76,707 kbps     00:37:32.458    67,362 kbps     00:37:27.083    255,586 bytes   1,073,556 bytes 00:37:12.583    
11              0:40:17.083     0:02:16.500     38,896 kbps     52,745 kbps     00:41:08.041    46,068 kbps     00:41:08.041    43,633 kbps     00:42:04.541    202,584 bytes   461,309 bytes   00:42:11.875    
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14              0:53:25.791     0:07:04.833     46,540 kbps     75,754 kbps     00:57:00.625    71,646 kbps     00:56:59.541    66,192 kbps     00:54:35.583    242,397 bytes   708,879 bytes   00:54:31.041    
15              1:00:30.625     0:05:14.583     46,485 kbps     75,083 kbps     01:01:38.375    71,464 kbps     01:01:37.083    68,715 kbps     01:01:36.375    242,109 bytes   1,006,902 bytes 01:02:24.416    
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22              1:32:06.250     0:05:19.708     44,331 kbps     64,966 kbps     01:34:30.375    59,881 kbps     01:32:57.916    58,507 kbps     01:32:52.916    230,891 bytes   538,342 bytes   01:34:48.250    
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24              1:42:18.916     0:04:28.666     43,466 kbps     73,091 kbps     01:42:40.458    71,491 kbps     01:42:37.458    69,840 kbps     01:42:33.291    226,383 bytes   590,026 bytes   01:42:41.500    
25              1:46:47.583     0:03:50.791     45,678 kbps     67,826 kbps     01:50:15.083    63,547 kbps     01:50:11.666    57,684 kbps     01:50:12.250    237,904 bytes   552,328 bytes   01:50:15.291    
26              1:50:38.375     0:02:04.583     42,849 kbps     63,494 kbps     01:51:57.416    57,225 kbps     01:52:31.333    53,651 kbps     01:51:57.333    223,171 bytes   570,293 bytes   01:51:52.916    
27              1:52:42.958     0:04:07.916     49,181 kbps     81,063 kbps     01:54:09.208    75,975 kbps     01:54:09.125    70,551 kbps     01:54:06.416    256,153 bytes   758,487 bytes   01:54:10.250    
28              1:56:50.875     0:02:07.416     52,905 kbps     79,755 kbps     01:58:13.458    72,843 kbps     01:58:11.750    70,417 kbps     01:58:10.583    275,549 bytes   626,336 bytes   01:57:53.458    
29              1:58:58.291     0:07:16.208     44,880 kbps     66,731 kbps     01:59:22.125    61,206 kbps     01:59:18.916    58,308 kbps     01:59:14.250    233,748 bytes   553,349 bytes   01:59:21.000    
30              2:06:14.500     0:04:07.375     54,496 kbps     83,751 kbps     02:09:00.374    80,039 kbps     02:08:58.458    74,861 kbps     02:08:56.833    283,835 bytes   801,133 bytes   02:08:29.208    
31              2:10:21.875     0:02:00.583     47,480 kbps     79,201 kbps     02:11:34.958    72,805 kbps     02:10:56.708    71,442 kbps     02:10:51.666    247,294 bytes   754,110 bytes   02:11:22.625    
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STREAM DIAGNOSTICS:

File            PID             Type            Codec           Language                Seconds                     Bitrate                  Bytes        Packets       
----------      -------------   -----           ----------      -------------           --------------          ---------------         --------------  -----------     
00004.M2TS      4113 (0x1011)   0x24            HEVC                                    9312.875                 45,000 kbps            52,384,721,983  284,833,339     
00004.M2TS      4352 (0x1100)   0x85            DTS-HD HR       deu (German)            9312.875                  2,046 kbps             2,381,794,976   13,969,472     
00004.M2TS      4353 (0x1101)   0x81            AC3             deu (German)            9312.875                    224 kbps               260,761,984    1,455,145     
00004.M2TS      4354 (0x1102)   0x81            AC3             deu (German)            9312.875                    224 kbps               260,761,984    1,455,145     
00004.M2TS      4355 (0x1103)   0x81            AC3             deu (German)            9312.875                    224 kbps               260,761,984    1,455,145     
00004.M2TS      4768 (0x12A0)   0x90            PGS             deu (German)            9312.875                     41 kbps                47,307,000      265,940     
00004.M2TS      4769 (0x12A1)   0x90            PGS             eng (English)           9312.875                     33 kbps                38,155,527      216,879

[kmhofmann]

Screencap comparison between UHD and BD here:

https://slow.pics/c/ym3KkpQO

[andreasy969]

Yikes. It's a sadness how German labels treat some of the IMHO rather rare good German movies. Sticking with my DVDs. Problem is that better international relases might come with burnt-in subs.

[Katatonia]

^^^ Wow, my excitement for this release sure went downhill.

[barrett75]

Originally Posted by kmhofmann

Screencap comparison between UHD and BD here:

https://slow.pics/c/ym3KkpQO

mein Gott is this some kind of a joke??? can't believe how hideous the UHD is...

[Andrew Woo]

Impressive to make a comparison with a screenshot of the TV interview footage with Traudl Junge which doesn't look like the rest of the film in the first place.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by Andrew Woo

Impressive to make a comparison with a screenshot of the TV interview footage with Traudl Junge which doesn't look like the rest of the film in the first place.

Come on, that just happens to be the first out of 71 comparisons total.

[Ben_UK]

This has to be some kind of error?

[I KEEL YOU]

Those screencaps sure are disappointing. In some of the images I can legitimately nazi the difference.

[kmhofmann]

Originally Posted by Andrew Woo

Impressive to make a comparison with a screenshot of the TV interview footage with Traudl Junge which doesn't look like the rest of the film in the first place.

Maybe go through the other screencaps?

[Andrew Woo]

Originally Posted by kmhofmann

Maybe go through the other screencaps?

Yes, I overlooked the others the first time. Sorry.

[Quint van der Vaart]

wow they really messed up this transfer !
hard pass and lets hope another company makes a better release....