Superman: The Movie 4K UHD (1978)

[LSK]

I have this one. 2018 is printed on the back of the case. I bought it when it came out. I never got around to actually watch the UHD yet, but I will soon, to hear that nice soundtrack mix.

[david_blu]

Originally Posted by thebarnman

I mainly bought this movie to get the Dolby Digital soundtrack that used the 70mm six track sound source so I could experience that for the first time.

When I received it, it turned out Amazon sent me the wrong disc.

The upc on mine is 883929646180. If anyone knows if that's the one with the 70mm six track audio please let me know. Otherwise I'm pretty sure I won't buy this movie again.

Here's the front cover of the one I bought...

I think earlier in this thread we mention ways to spot it. If it is the UK disc, it will have digital code on the slipcover, the later release didn't. Not sure if the US release has the same difference. For this sort of thing eBay is easier as some of the pictures help for the UK version at least.

[thebarnman]

Originally Posted by LSK

I have this one. 2018 is printed on the back of the case. I bought it when it came out. I never got around to actually watch the UHD yet, but I will soon, to hear that nice soundtrack mix.

Hmmm, thanks for that! I see there IS a difference in the UPC code. That will help me out a lot I think.

Mine is 883929646180
Yours is 7340112745950

TOTALLY DIFFERENT!

[thebarnman]

Originally Posted by david_blu

I think earlier in this thread we mention ways to spot it. If it is the UK disc, it will have digital code on the slipcover, the later release didn't. Not sure if the US release has the same difference. For this sort of thing eBay is easier as some of the pictures help for the UK version at least.

Thanks guys, I will be looking into this!

For everyone out there, is the older 6 track 70mm audio come off as a way better mix or is it close to the newer multichannel mix?

[unsung122212]

Originally Posted by thebarnman

Hmmm, thanks for that! I see there IS a difference in the UPC code. That will help me out a lot I think.

Mine is 883929646180
Yours is 7340112745950

TOTALLY DIFFERENT!

Keep in mind that that is the Finland release. So, the UPC number will be different to the US release. The US and (I think the Canadian release) use the same UPC number. WB didn't put the mentioned of a digital copy on the case artwork, just the slipcover to make it easier to press new copies without including the DC. So, if you can find a copy still with that slipcover, then it has a high likely chance of of the 70mm track. When they pressed more copies, they changed the audio tracks, but never changed the UPC number or specs on the back. They only changed the symbols on the disc itself. Withthatsaid, I highly doubt that you will find new, unopended copies (in the US release that it is) that would be stock from the first pressing).

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by thebarnman

Thanks guys, I will be looking into this!

For everyone out there, is the older 6 track 70mm audio come off as a way better mix or is it close to the newer multichannel mix?

Apples and oranges, literally.

The 70MM mix is the original mix and it's great for its time. It's what I grew up with.

The Atmos mix is a remix of the one done for the Special Edition in 2001 and is a modern mix with excellent surround, dynamic range and realistic sound effects. The 2001 mix was done under the supervision of Richard Donner.

Both mixes are excellent and I can listen to either one depending on what mood I'm in.

[KC-Technerd]

Originally Posted by thebarnman

Thanks guys, I will be looking into this!

For everyone out there, is the older 6 track 70mm audio come off as a way better mix or is it close to the newer multichannel mix?

The DD 5.1 from the 70mm 6-track is rather remarkable in being an early test for "split-surround" (two surround channels instead of one) and it's quite good. The multi-channel mix for the Special Edition doesn't have any of the original sound effects, but instead uses ones that were newly created for it.

My opinion is that the 70mm 6-track split surround is the best presentation of the original sound work and ultimately belongs with the original theatrical cut of the movie. It is way better than the Dolby Stereo 2.0 Surround mix (for the 35mm prints), which unfortunately sounds terrible in comparison.

The Special Edition mix (by Michael Thau under the supervision of Richard Donner and used for the Atmos mix on the disc) belongs solely with the Special Edition presentation (again my opinion).

[Dr. T]

Originally Posted by KC-Technerd

The DD 5.1 from the 70mm 6-track is rather remarkable in being an early test for "split-surround" (two surround channels instead of one) and it's quite good. The multi-channel mix for the Special Edition doesn't have any of the original sound effects, but instead uses ones that were newly created for it.

My opinion is that the 70mm 6-track split surround is the best presentation of the original sound work and ultimately belongs with the original theatrical cut of the movie. It is way better than the Dolby Stereo 2.0 Surround mix (for the 35mm prints), which unfortunately sounds terrible in comparison.

The Special Edition mix (by Michael Thau under the supervision of Richard Donner and used for the Atmos mix on the disc) belongs solely with the Special Edition presentation (again my opinion).

I agree, although the last part bothers me. We have the contemporaneous interview with Donner where he doesn't seem to realize the effects have been changed. He even says, "I, quite honestly, did not hear the final mix."

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Dr. T

I agree, although the last part bothers me. We have the contemporaneous interview with Donner where he doesn't seem to realize the effects have been changed. He even says, "I, quite honestly, did not hear the final mix."

I'm having a bit of trouble with this. If he watched the Special Edition he heard the final mix.

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

I'm having a bit of trouble with this. If he watched the Special Edition he heard the final mix.

Not necessarily; he says he watched "three run-throughs." It could have been the final picture edit, but without the finalized new sound mix. But still, I'm sure the recreated foley effects had to be in those run-throughs.

Some of the interviews Donner gave over the years (like this one) suggest that he wasn't completely aware of (or didn't notice) all the technical aspects of the 2001 special edition. It seems like as far as he was concerned, they were adding a little bit of footage back in and "enhancing" everything.

But I dunno; just speculating.

[KC-Technerd]

Originally Posted by Dr. T

I agree, although the last part bothers me. We have the contemporaneous interview with Donner where he doesn't seem to realize the effects have been changed. He even says, "I, quite honestly, did not hear the final mix."

Ha! I can't find the article now, but I'm pretty sure that Thau claimed he did the new sound mix because Donner was disappointed that it didn't sound as good as he remembered it when Thau originally presented it to him in preparation for the special edition. It always sounded to me like Donner was remembering and expecting the 6-track mix, and Thau gave him the Dolby Stereo Surround 2.0 thus justifying a new mix. One thing I always notice in the Thau mix is that Donner's credit gets a very loud swoosh (considerably louder than all the others), as if Thau was trying to emphasize or impress the director.

[GKintz]

Originally Posted by KC-Technerd

Ha! I can't find the article now, but I'm pretty sure that Thau claimed he did the new sound mix because Donner was disappointed that it didn't sound as good as he remembered it when Thau originally presented it to him in preparation for the special edition. It always sounded to me like Donner was remembering and expecting the 6-track mix, and Thau gave him the Dolby Stereo Surround 2.0 thus justifying a new mix. One thing I always notice in the Thau mix is that Donner's credit gets a very loud swoosh (considerably louder than all the others), as if Thau was trying to emphasize or impress the director.

Agreed. And as it often goes with how "promotional sausage is made" it's easier to justify a remix if the original is made out to be subpar. To further illustrate this point, here's Thau's take on the 70mm mix:

Going back to the original mix, we were shocked when we heard it. We grabbed the original 70mm full-coat that actually had the label from the Pinewood stage on it; it had a date of November 1978. We put it up in a dubbing stage. We had Dolby down there a couple times verifying that the set up on the Dolby units, the decoding, was correct. Superman was the first film that was originally recorded in a 70mm 6-track split surround but here's the rub that no one knows about but it's the truth. They mixed in split surrounds but they did not use the surrounds very much, especially in a stereo way because it was very new and they were very scared of it. At the last second, here in America, they brought it over to do some final mastering on the 70mm and they chickened out and the film was only released with mono surround in the 70mm format. So they mixed it for stereo surround, but it was never released that way and the fact is that there wasn't much difference anyway.

The reality (as anyone can now hear with the 2018 4K disc) is the 70mm mix is pretty darn good and far better than the 35mm Dolby Stereo mix. Split surrounds are actively used. Dialog occasionally was minorly directional and the low end has some heft. It holds a unique spot in audio history and is worth a listen.

PeterTHX referred to the two mixes as "Apples to Oranges" and I would somewhat agree with that assessment. Imagine two mixers at different time periods making a 5.1 mix. Sometimes one mix has split surrounds where the other doesn't and vise versa. Same for other directionals pans, the LFE, etc. I prefer the 70mm mix but have to give some credit to the latest Atmos mix as well. I regrettably don't have a link to the newer audio comparisons, but those who have compared the previous 5.1 remix to the new Atmos mix have noted minor tweaks with a slight toning down of "some" of the negatives that came with the earlier remix. New sound effects remain, but sometimes not as obnoxious. I do not know if the outright missing sound effects or dialog that were noted previously were addressed or not.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by TheOneWithThePrize

At this point it would be a miracle if any online retailer happened to have old stock left on their shelves with the 70mm six-track surround mix on the disc. The moment the news dropped of it being left and people rushing to get their hands on it, that would have been the time when one would be fortunate enough to get it. 2+ years later? Practically no chance whatsoever.

Under $15 shipped on eBay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/286498557117

While there is a perception in this forum that this is a highly valued item, it doesn't play out that way in the third party market. Either there is a massive amount of copies of the 2018 version, or people don't simply care to pay more for them.

If you want the slipcover though, that will set you back an extra $30, no matter which version

[danny_boy]

The 1991 STM laserdisc has an excellent sound mix even if it's matrixed from a 2.0 RT-LT source.

It seems to be distinct from both the 2.0 mix on the 1983 P&S laserdisc and the 2011/2023 2.0 audio on the Blu/UHD.....

The 91' laserdisc is also the only official wide screen release that features the uncorrected Green costume(swooping down to save the cat in Brooklyn and darting towards the Hoover dam to save Jimmy).

All the grain and dirt is also preserved as Supes flies up through the clouds only to be confronted by Jorel("my son it is forbidden for you to intefere.....").

So despite it's obvious limitations in resolution and color reproduction....it somehow still gives me that warm fuzzy feeling seeing all the optical anomalies present in this one of a kind unmanipulated version.

And even though it's not discrete, the sound mix on this laserdisc is on par with the 2018 70mm dolby digital rendition.....

My 2 cents.

[CrossRhodes94]

I understand the audio is different. But which version is the better version? The 2018 release?

[danny_boy]

Originally Posted by CrossRhodes94

I understand the audio is different. But which version is the better version? The 2018 release?

I actually prefer the 1991 audio rendition to the 2018 version.
Many may disagree.

Although i doubt that there are many in a position to actually make the comparison.

For the record I am using a Phillips 600LDPWS laserdisc player(one of the best from the era), going through a Sony STR-DN1040-matrixed out to a 7.1(using pro logic XII)-with an Optoma 1080p short throw projector.

For the UHD I am using a JVC NX9 Front projector(pretty damn good!) with an ISCO anamorphic lens...whilst using the same speaker set up.

Obviously in terms of picture quality...how can a humble CLV laserdisc from 1991 compete with the might of a fully fledged UHD disc from 2018?!
It can't from a purely metric based objective(resolution,luminosity,color spectrum ect ect).....

But as I said, there is something about the unadulterated, unmanipulated(no grain clean up or color correction) form of this 1991 master that gets my warm and fuzzy feelings going...in a way that the digitally sterilised post 2000s equivalents(2001 Special edition DVD,2006 DVD,2011 Blu ray, 2018 UHD,2023 UHD simply cannot....for me!

The sound on the other hand , can be compared with more equality...

The 1991 sound mix sounds warmer with nice bass when needed(Opening of the dome and the earthquake)-the 2018 has the advantage of the surround splits and single channel discretion-but sounds a touch more "tinny" to my ears(could be my set up too)-it would be nice if this Dolby digital lossy had been released as uncompressed...

So all told, I favour the 1991 mix...but would understand if the majority(if given the opportunity to make the comparison) would favour the 2018...

[david_blu]

Isn't the wide-screen VHS a port of the laserdisc so may effectively be the same mix. Albeit mine is PAL unfortunately so sped up.

[Mick B]

I can remember having the widescreen VHS tape back in 1993.
At the time I had a Dolby Prologic setup.
I can remember that the film sounded really good. It also had the green/brown/orangey costume look when supes saves Jimmy at the dam.
I can tell you that a friend was watching it one day with a cup of coffee when the air force one plane is struck by lightning and the sound came out of the surround speak so well that he throw his coffee all over himself.

In 2001 I got the DVD which featured the special edition and I had by then got a Dolby Digital setup and straight away I noticed plenty of extra sound effects that had been added for it.

I can also tell you that the VHS tapes for SII and SIII never sounded as good as the VHS tape for STM. Even the DVDs for II and III were not that good. The Blurays did improve the sound but I am not sure if SIIs blu had some extra stuff added to it or not as only saw that film on a ships cinema back in 1981 in mono.

Mick.

[RalphoR]

Originally Posted by Dr. T

Yep, Warners did a switcheroo on this one and there's no way to tell from the outside packaging! If it has the Dolby logo printed on the disc, that's the later reissue without the original six track. The first pressing from 2018 has the Ultra HD Blu-ray logo on the disc.

Thank you for explaining this. Looks like I lucked out as my 4k disc doesn't have the Dolby logo printed on it but it has the Ultra HD logo. Yay!

[thebarnman]

OK, I'm a bit confused. I would like to have the copy that has the original six track.

Mine has both a Dolby logo AND Ultra HD Blu-ray logo on the disc. To be clear, I did a scan of the disc to share with you guys...

The Dolby logo is part of Dolby Vision (which is probably not what your talkign about) and the UHD Blu-ray logo IS also on it. So does this mean I have the one with the original six track soundtrack? If so, then to play it back, I have to select DD 5.1 (if I remember correctly from the disc menu?)

Thanks!