The Official Pioneer Elite 21/23/25/27 Receivers Thread

[SumSuperman]

Originally Posted by fireman325

Thanks for the reply. It sounds like it's easy enough to deal with when this happens to you. I wonder if it's something that will be addressed in a future firmware update in the PS3 slim.

Yeah, I hope they address this, too. According to some people this only started happening after the 3.0 update. I don't know if that's true since I bought my VSX21 after I updated to 3.0. I would imagine if this is the case they could easily address the issue in future firmware.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by SumSuperman

Yeah, I hope they address this, too. According to some people this only started happening after the 3.0 update. I don't know if that's true since I bought my VSX21 after I updated to 3.0. I would imagine if this is the case they could easily address the issue in future firmware.

I just read through a thread on this subject over at AVSforums and most everyone stated their issues began after the 3.1 update, but IIRC there was one person who stated they had problems with the 2.7.6 firmware as well. And it definitely seems that it's limited only to Pioneer receivers. It will probably be after the first of the year before I would be ready to buy a new PS3 slim, so in the meantime I'm going to keep my eye on this issue, and hopefully by the time I'm ready to buy one this issue will have been solved.

[Irrob]

Originally Posted by fireman325

Is anyone here using an new Pioneer Elite receiver with a PS3 slim? I just read on another forum that there are some issues with the new Elites and the current firmware on the PS3 slim. Has anyone had any issues with this? I was planning to get one of the new slim PS3s after I get the new receiver so I would like to know more about what the issues are. Thanks.

No major issues here. Play both games and BD's. Had an audio issue playing a game on bitstream, would get music but no voice. that's it.

[jruc03]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

I would have felt the same way you did if that was the case. Thankfully it isn't. I too would be annoyed if the crossovers worked that way. I still think for an AVR of this level, we should have the option to change the inidividual crossovers for each speaker, regardless. This is the biggest oversight that the Elite's possess and it is also my biggest gripe about them too!

Fors I agree after setting it up last nigth thats the only gripe I really have with the unit, I set the crossover to 150Hz like you suggested and it sounds great. I do think the Onkyo's are a little easier to setup since pioneer's manual is 123 pages long but that just means there are more options to tweak which is a good thing.

I was a little confused about how to know if which MCACC to run the Full auto, Auto or Manual. But I think I figured it out you have to run Full auto or Auto to be able to go into the Manual and mess with any settings to customize it by using the SPL meter is that correct?

The only other complication I ran into was when I ran Auto MCACC it kept saying my left surround POLK FXI3 was reverse phase when is wasn't. I checked the speaker cable and the back of the pioneer where I plugged the banana plugs in at and they were correct. I just figure it had something to do with the placement and that the FXI3's are bipolar.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by jruc03

Fors I agree after setting it up last nigth thats the only gripe I really have with the unit, I set the crossover to 150Hz like you suggested and it sounds great. I do think the Onkyo's are a little easier to setup since pioneer's manual is 123 pages long but that just means there are more options to tweak which is a good thing.

I was a little confused about how to know if which MCACC to run the Full auto, Auto or Manual. But I think I figured it out you have to run Full auto or Auto to be able to go into the Manual and mess with any settings to customize it by using the SPL meter is that correct?

The only other complication I ran into was when I ran Auto MCACC it kept saying my left surround POLK FXI3 was reverse phase when is wasn't. I checked the speaker cable and the back of the pioneer where I plugged the banana plugs in at and they were correct. I just figure it had something to do with the placement and that the FXI3's are bipolar.

Do me a favor, and try 80Hz. I have been in discussion with soprano about this level, and after reading more thoroughly, I discovered that this crossover setting is not solely for the LPF of LFE. It is a "universal" crossover that effects the cutoff of the low frequencies, sort of a HPF and LPF. At 150Hz, you are losing a lot of the low frequencies to your fronts in the 80Hz to 120Hz range. Change that setting to 80Hz, and anything below that will go to the sub. This will also help your fronts become a bit deeper, as this will allow them to push the higher end of the lower frequencies between 80Hz and 120Hz, which will be fine.

Yes, you do need to run Auto first, and then move forward with Full Auto and Advanced. One thing you should be doing each time is to save each setting as you move to the next MCACC. This way if you screw something up, you'll still have the prior calibration test saved to start from again without starting all over.

As far as the bipolar thing, I have not heard of that, but i find that interesting you got that response. Are you sure you didn't have that one FXi3 set in dipole mode?

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner with your PM (I actually forgot about it to be honest, sorry!), but work has been crazy and home life too. I will be more than happy to help you if you need it with the SPL meter.

[jruc03]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

Do me a favor, and try 80Hz. I have been in discussion with soprano about this level, and after reading more thoroughly, I discovered that this crossover setting is not solely for the LPF of LFE. It is a "universal" crossover that effects the cutoff of the low frequencies. At 150Hz, you are losing a lot of the low frequencies to your fronts in the 80Hz to 120Hz range. Change that setting to 80Hz, and anything below that will go to the sub. This will also help your fronts become a bit deeper, as this will allow them to push the higher end of the lower frequencies between 80Hz and 120Hz, which will be fine.

Yes, you do need to run Auto first, and then move forward with Full Auto and Advanced. One thing you should be doing each time is to save each setting as you move to the next MCACC. This way if you screw something up, you'll still have the prior calibration test saved to start from again without starting all over.

As far as the bipolar thing, I have not heard of that, but i find that interesting you got that response. Are you sure you didn't have that one FXi3 set in dipole mode?

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner with your PM (I actually forgot about it to be honest, sorry!), but work has been crazy and home life too. I will be more than happy to help you if you need it with the SPL meter.

Fors no worries I know how crazy things get for everybody. In regards to the MCACC how do I make sure I'm saving each time correctly. I figured It worked like this you run Full Auto the first time or Auto and then you can go in and mess with the settings under the Manual. I think I did it right should I rename the memory1 to Home Theater so I know that i'm saving it under the correct name.

So I went into the Manual MCACC and then to Fine Channel Level, then set up my SPL meter and adjusted the speakers accordingly to get them to match 75dB's on the meter is that the correct way to do it? The only thing I didn't like about that was when you go to change the other speaker it constantly jumps from the Left speaker to whatever speaker your trying to adjust. But I guess they do that so that your get to hear the reference level from the left speaker first so you can adjust the rest to match the sound of the Left speaker.

Also I checked my FXI3's to make sure they were both set to Dipole mode and they were but it still kept popping up saying the Left one was reverse phase but there was one time when it said the Right was to idk what the deal was there maybe just because one is in a corner and the other one isn't.

I will make sure and change it back to 80Hz tonight as well don't wanna be missing out on any sound since I plan on watching Transformers again this weekend at a high volume.

[Fors*]

It's #3 on the menu, data management. Go into MCACC Memory copy and copy it there. You can also rename it to Home Theater as well here. I have all 6 settings saved. It is especially handy to have a setting for when you use 2 channels for music.

That FXi3 thing is weird, but perhaps it is a reflection that is screwing it up?

Sounds like you set up the SPL meter properly. But you can run test tones just out of one speaker without having them 'bounce" and that is to go into Menu Option #4a3 - Channel Level. There is an auto and manual option. If you use the manual setting for "Test Tone", this would require you to change each channel manually, thus it wouldn't "bounce" on you. At least if I remember correctly, this is what you do.....been a little while.

I am telling you...wait until you get into the Advanced and play around with standing waves and the Acoustic Calibration EQ Professional. Here you'll get into reverb, time measurements between your left and right surrounds and even group delay measurements...this thing is a tweakers dream!

[jruc03]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

It's #3 on the menu, data management. Go into MCACC Memory copy and copy it there. You can also rename it to Home Theater as well here. I have all 6 settings saved. It is especially handy to have a setting for when you use 2 channels for music.

That FXi3 thing is weird, but perhaps it is a reflection that is screwing it up?

Sounds like you set up the SPL meter properly. But you can run test tones just out of one speaker without having them 'bounce" and that is to go into Menu Option #4a3 - Channel Level. There is an auto and manual option. If you use the manual setting for "Test Tone", this would require you to change each channel manually, thus it wouldn't "bounce" on you. At least if I remember correctly, this is what you do.....been a little while.

I am telling you...wait until you get into the Advanced and play around with standing waves and the Acoustic Calibration EQ Professional. Here you'll get into reverb, time measurements between your left and right surrounds and even group delay measurements...this thing is a tweakers dream!

Thanks for the info Fors the manual can have you running in circles pretty easily. It is a tweakers dream I went into the Advanced but I didn't even touch anything I saw how many adjustments you can make and maybe if I get to be a pro at this stuff I'll mess with it but for now I'm leaving it alone. Can't wait to get home and mess with it some more to get it just right plus watch Transformers 2 again! I'm waiting to update my gallery until I get my new Samsung TV so I can do it all at once.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by jruc03

Thanks for the info Fors the manual can have you running in circles pretty easily. It is a tweakers dream I went into the Advanced but I didn't even touch anything I saw how many adjustments you can make and maybe if I get to be a pro at this stuff I'll mess with it but for now I'm leaving it alone. Can't wait to get home and mess with it some more to get it just right plus watch Transformers 2 again! I'm waiting to update my gallery until I get my new Samsung TV so I can do it all at once.

I forgot to ask......how does the sound differ than before with your Onkyo? Do you notice a more stripped down, cleaner sound than what the Onkyo produced?

[jruc03]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

I forgot to ask......how does the sound differ than before with your Onkyo? Do you notice a more stripped down, cleaner sound than what the Onkyo produced?

Well from what little bit of Transformers I watched last night it did sound much cleaner than the Onkyo, I watched some OTA tv as well but the sound from that is never the same but it sounded clearer to from what I could tell. I'll watch some blu's this wkend and i'm sure I will be it audio heaven. My wife couldn't care less she just thought it looked prettier. I did notice it doesn't get anywhere near as hot as the Onkyo which is good so I can keep the door on my stand shut so my 2yr old won't mess with it. I might get a fan to put in there just to be on the safe side.

[Fors*]

Yoiu can thank the amps in these things for keeping them cool. Much more efficient, which I think contributes to the better quality sound. Getting a fan is a good idea, especially if you want to keep grubby little 2 year old hands off of the equipment!

[saprano]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

Do me a favor, and try 80Hz. I have been in discussion with soprano about this level, and after reading more thoroughly, I discovered that this crossover setting is not solely for the LPF of LFE. It is a "universal" crossover that effects the cutoff of the low frequencies, sort of a HPF and LPF. At 150Hz, you are losing a lot of the low frequencies to your fronts in the 80Hz to 120Hz range. Change that setting to 80Hz, and anything below that will go to the sub. This will also help your fronts become a bit deeper, as this will allow them to push the higher end of the lower frequencies between 80Hz and 120Hz, which will be fine.

Yes, you do need to run Auto first, and then move forward with Full Auto and Advanced. One thing you should be doing each time is to save each setting as you move to the next MCACC. This way if you screw something up, you'll still have the prior calibration test saved to start from again without starting all over.

As far as the bipolar thing, I have not heard of that, but i find that interesting you got that response. Are you sure you didn't have that one FXi3 set in dipole mode?

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner with your PM (I actually forgot about it to be honest, sorry!), but work has been crazy and home life too. I will be more than happy to help you if you need it with the SPL meter.

Ah ha, so you can the speakers xovers.

jruc03, you put the LFE at 150hz or the speakers?

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by saprano

Ah ha, so you can the speakers xovers.

jruc03, you put the LFE at 150hz or the speakers?

Hey soprano. That single crossover setting effects both the sub and speakers. It is not only used for the dedicated LFE signal, but it also sets the crossover for your speakers. By setting this one single crossover, you are basically providing the LPF of LFE AND the HPF for your speakers. It will cut off anything above 80Hz of the LFE signal to your sub, but it also acts as a high pass filter, where it will direct any frequencies below 80Hz from your speakers to the sub instead. This will result in the speakers getting the 80Hz to 120Hz range of the low frequency.

Does this make sense?

[saprano]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

Hey soprano. That single crossover setting effects both the sub and speakers. It is not only used for the dedicated LFE signal, but it also sets the crossover for your speakers. By setting this one single crossover, you are basically providing the LPF of LFE AND the HPF for your speakers. It will cut off anything above 80Hz of the LFE signal to your sub, but it also acts as a high pass filter, where it will direct any frequencies below 80Hz from your speakers to the sub instead. This will result in the speakers getting the 80Hz to 120Hz range of the low frequency.

Does this make sense?

Yes and thats what i was i was originally telling you all along.

You can change xovers but they all have to be the same.

But then that goes back to have the gripe i had with the SC's. the LFE signal should really be set to 120hz, it sucks it order to do that i have to set my fullrange speakers that high also.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by saprano

Yes and thats what i was i was originally telling you all along.

You can change xovers but they all have to be the same.

But then that goes back to have the gripe i had with the SC's. the LFE signal should really be set to 120hz, it sucks it order to do that i have to set my fullrange speakers that high also.

I'm curious why you would want your LFE set that high. Wouldn't that make your subwoofer too easy to localize?

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by saprano

Yes and thats what i was i was originally telling you all along.

You can change xovers but they all have to be the same.

But then that goes back to have the gripe i had with the SC's. the LFE signal should really be set to 120hz, it sucks it order to do that i have to set my fullrange speakers that high also.

I totally mis-construed what you were telling me. For some reason, I kept getting the impression that you were talking about an entirely seperate crossover setting within the menu for the speakers, seperately from this one. For that, I am sorry. In fact, with that being your point, you were absolutely right from the beginning. I should be thanking you for making me dive back into the menu and re-read it.

I also agree with you, 150Hz is too high and 80 hz is too low.....but I believe 80hz is the lesser of 2 evils. However, I do not even have an 120hz setting in my SC-05. It goes from 80Hz to 100Hz to 150Hz!

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by fireman325

I'm curious why you would want your LFE set that high. Wouldn't that make your subwoofer too easy to localize?

Technically not fireman, as the LFE signal only goes up to 120Hz anyway. Most people set theirs at 120Hz, so setting it at 150Hz is really the same as 120hz when you think of it.

What stinks is with this setting at 150Hz you would get absolutely no low end being pumped out from your fronts......

[Steve]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

Technically not fireman, as the LFE signal only goes up to 120Hz anyway. Most people set theirs at 120Hz, so setting it at 150Hz is really the same as 120hz when you think of it.

What stinks is with this setting at 150Hz you would get absolutely no low end being pumped out from your fronts......

I've always set my crossover and LFE both at 80Hz. It was always my understanding that if you get above about 100Hz at the subwoofer that it becomes easy to localize. I was also not aware that the LFE channel went up that high.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by fireman325

I've always set my crossover and LFE both at 80Hz. It was always m understanding that if you get above about 100Hz at the subwoofer that it becomes easy to localize.

I use this post from StimpsonJCat to help better explain why 120Hz than 80Hz...

On most AVRs today each speaker has a crossover. What ever is above the crossover is sent through the speaker and what is below is sent to the sub. This has nothing to do with the LFE channel (.1 channel). The LPF of LFE setting will limit the LFE up to the setting. So if you have it set at 120 Hz it will send the information up to that (120 Hz is really as high a frequency as you will ever see in the LFE track). By setting it to 80 Hz you are limiting it to 80 Hz. The information on the LFE track that is higher than 80 Hz is lost. Keep in mind the LFE track is only going to the sub (in most setups).

Remember we are only talking about the LFE (.1) channel with the LPF.
The LFE information over 80 Hz has nowhere but the sub to go to. If your sub can't handle 120 Hz then you shouldn't set it that high. But if it can (mine goes up to 180 Hz) then you should set it at 120 Hz (As long as it doesn't localize the sub).

If your AVR has a LPF of LFE it should be set to 120 Hz (as long as it doesn't localize the sub). And the crossover dial on the sub should be set as high as possible or switched off if possible. This allows the AVR to do all the bass management which with current AVRs is the way to go. The LPF of LFE is a low pass for the LFE channel and you will lose the sound from 80Hz to 120 Hz for the LFE if you have it set to 80 Hz This is different than the crossovers for the speakers. But you lose the the LFE info from 80 Hz - 120 Hz with that setting. If the subs are located in the front near the mains you shouldn't have any trouble with sub localiztion.

But I also have the following from our own BD....

There are several things to remember:
1. The 80Hz recommendation by THX goes back to dinosaur (Dolby Pro Logic) years and apply to THX certified speakers. Those speakers were required to have this crossover. It is not a magic and blind recommendation that applies to all speakers.
2. You can say that the Low Pass Filters (LPF) inside the modern receivers have made the crossovers on the back of the subwoofers obsolete. That is why we normally turn them all the way up to their maximum point and set its value in the receiver. The crossovers on the subs are still usefull if you are using a 2.1 setup with vintage audio preamps.
3. For the same reason, we can say that the High Pass Filters (HPF) inside the more advanced receivers have made the low pass filter obsolete. That is why we normally set its value to 120Hz. If your receiver does not allow to set the high pass filters of the individual speakers, then setting the LPF to 80Hz may not be a bad idea.
4. It is important that people distinguish between LFE and what goes to a subwoofer. The LFE is a production channel, whereas the subwoofer is a playback channel. The sound engineers determine what goes to the LFE, and the users of the home-theater system determine what ends up coming out of the subwoofer.
5. We cannot localize the sound above 80Hz. It has to go much above 100Hz before we are able to localize it.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by fireman325

I'm curious why you would want your LFE set that high. Wouldn't that make your subwoofer too easy to localize?

Many movies have content above 80hz, by setting it to 80hz you cut off everything from 80 to 120.

Localization can happen at 120hz, but it depends on where you put your sub. i have mine up front with my mains so it blends in perfectly. there are times when im watching a movie and it seems like my speakers are producing all the LFE content. its pretty cool.

Originally Posted by forsberg21

I totally mis-construed what you were telling me. For some reason, I kept getting the impression that you were talking about an entirely seperate crossover setting within the menu for the speakers, seperately from this one. For that, I am sorry. In fact, with that being your point, you were absolutely right from the beginning. I should be thanking you for making me dive back into the menu and re-read it.

I also agree with you, 150Hz is too high and 80 hz is too low.....but I believe 80hz is the lesser of 2 evils. However, I do not even have an 120hz setting in my SC-05. It goes from 80Hz to 100Hz to 150Hz!

Its all good. the internet rarely gets the point across we try to make in words.

setting it to 150hz wouldn't even matter if pioneer let us set the LFE separately from the speakers xover.