Power cords? suggestions?

[DougMac]

Originally Posted by ryan4blu

just was hoping for s few recommendations or maybe links to sites that sell them.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...v-_-Electrical


I went to a high end audio store and asked to audition power cables. I carefully listened to two, not being told what was hooked up and leaving the audition room while they were swapped. I could hear absolutely no difference. Verdict? The sales guy told me my ears weren't "golden" enough. You can't win for losing.

Maybe if the store used this tweak I would have heard a difference:
http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina44.htm

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Better Power cords audio and even video performance will be more noticed when they are used with dedicated 20 amp lines with special wire run from the Circuit Box to special outlet receptacles and receptacle covers as has been done in my Listening Room/Home Theater. I am not recommending that most members of the forum do this because it is expensive, but there is a decided difference in the performance.

Rich

Thanks, Rich. That makes makes a little more sense to me. I can understand if you've improved/upgraded your wiring all the way to the circuit box, then an upgraded power cord 'may' be better than a standard one. I'd still like to understand the science and engineering behind it all, because most of it still sounds like snake-oil to me. I haven't had the opportunity to read through the various links to articles posted here, but I plan to.

[WiWavelength]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

As to the percentage improvement I would say perhaps 10 to 15% improvement is possible. That difference can be heard possibly in how solid the bass is, how solid imaging and soundstage and depth, detail, percussive nature of the performance, clarity, how real voices and instruments may sound, etc.

Nonsense.

percent change = 100%[(final value - original value)/(original value)]

You cannot even estimate a percent change if you do not first have two values: one original value & one final value. You have neither, as these qualities you "hear" show no significant differences in measurable quantifiers.

So, your percent improvement assertion is hooey.

AJ

[joe1515]

Originally Posted by WiWavelength

Nonsense.

percent change = 100%[(final value - original value)/(original value)]

You cannot even estimate a percent change if you do not first have two values: one original value & one final value. You have neither, as these qualities you "hear" show no significant differences in measurable quantifiers.

So, your percent improvement assertion is hooey.

AJ

So what your saying is any one who invests and upgrades power cords, cables, interconnects, etc.... is an idiot, and all of the companies who sell these products are selling products that do not add any benefits.

I guess if you say so

Joe

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by WiWavelength

Nonsense.

percent change = 100%[(final value - original value)/(original value)]
You cannot even estimate a percent change if you do not first have two values: one original value & one final value. You have neither, as these qualities you "hear" show no significant differences in measurable quantifiers.

So, your percent improvement assertion is hooey.

AJ

I have visions of you writing down this equation in front of a chalkboard and being pelted with spitballs!

Obviously we have another academic here who can only appreciate numbers and be damned one of the greatest instruments of all...the human ear.

John

[ryan4blu]

Originally Posted by John72953

I have visions of you writing down this equation in front of a chalkboard and being pelted with spitballs!

Obviously we have another academic here who can only appreciate numbers and be damned one of the greatest instruments of all...the human ear.

John

[repete66211]

Originally Posted by John72953

...one of the greatest instruments of all...the human ear.

The human ear is indeed quite a remarkable instrument, but have you ever "heard something" that wasn't there? Ever heard something differently than the person right next to you? Ever played the telephone game? Amazing as it is the human ear is not infallible. It can be fooled, especially when you factor in psychological influences like bias and selective thinking.

[repete66211]

Originally Posted by joe1515

...all of the companies who sell these products are selling products that do not add any benefits.

There has been no shortage of snake oil salesmen in the a/v industry over the years. I bet Rich, John and the others could name more examples than I could of companies selling products--sometimes very expensive products--that do absolutely nothing in the way of improved performance.

[ryan4blu]

Originally Posted by repete66211

There has been no shortage of snake oil salesmen in the a/v industry over the years. I bet Rich, John and the others could name more examples than I could of companies selling products--sometimes very expensive products--that do absolutely nothing in the way of improved performance.

MONSTER

[repete66211]

Originally Posted by ryan4blu

MONSTER

Monster is a fine example, although I don't think I would qualify their products as snake oil. Their prices may be pretty high, but their cables actually work. Perhaps their questionable claims, "aggressive" marketing and shady business practices push them into the snake oil arena though.

[joe1515]

Originally Posted by repete66211

There has been no shortage of snake oil salesmen in the a/v industry over the years. I bet Rich, John and the others could name more examples than I could of companies selling products--sometimes very expensive products--that do absolutely nothing in the way of improved performance.

I can only speak for myself, but I do not get sold products by salesman. I do research and make my own educated decision. I would venture to say that it is true for many of the people on this forum.

Again your implying that people (including myself) who have upgraded their power cables, speaker cables, interconnects, etc... were all taken by salesman.

Joe

[ryan4blu]

Originally Posted by joe1515

I can only speak for myself, but I do not get sold products by salesman. I do research and make my own educated decision. I would venture to say that it is true for many of the people on this forum.

Again your implying that people (including myself) who have upgraded their power cables, speaker cables, interconnects, etc... were all taken by salesman.

Joe

i do believe some cables are better than others and do better for AQ/PQ, but then again there are companies soaking up the $$ off of us for high priced stuff. i still want quality cables either way, but i am not willing to spend a million dollars to get them. i also refuse to pay $100 a foot for speaker wire at some of these high end audio/video stores. there are plenty of good companies that make wire for a decent price

i ordered my tara labs power cable off audiogon and paid for it last night. $90 shipped and it retails for $235 it is suppose to be a fantastic cable, so we shall see and i will let you all know how it goes.

[repete66211]

Originally Posted by joe1515

I can only speak for myself, but I do not get sold products by salesman. I do research and make my own educated decision. I would venture to say that it is true for many of the people on this forum.

Again your implying that people (including myself) who have upgraded their power cables, speaker cables, interconnects, etc... were all taken by salesman.

Joe

That's not what I'm implying. At least not explicitly. A sales pitch and salesman prodding can play a factor in any sale, but I would never say that's the only factor. I'm not calling you a sucker. I'm not engaging in this discussion to make personal attacks. It sounds like you did the sort of research that makes you comfortable with your decision. If you're OK with it then all is well.

[repete66211]

Originally Posted by ryan4blu

i do believe some cables are better than others and do better for AQ/PQ, but then again there are companies soaking up the $$ off of us for high priced stuff. i still want quality cables either way, but i am not willing to spend a million dollars to get them. i also refuse to pay $100 a foot for speaker wire at some of these high end audio/video stores. there are plenty of good companies that make wire for a decent price

i ordered my tara labs power cable off audiogon and paid for it last night. $90 shipped and it retails for $235 it is suppose to be a fantastic cable, so we shall see and i will let you all know how it goes.

Thanks Ryan. Again, I'm glad you found something you're happy with. I would appreciate you posting what you think of it once it arrives.

[ryan4blu]

Originally Posted by repete66211

Thanks Ryan. Again, I'm glad you found something you're happy with. I would appreciate you posting what you think of it once it arrives.

sure, no problem. i will let you know if i actually hear a difference or not.

[westom]

Originally Posted by Ricshoe

So why, then, would a cable built ANY differently than the standard builder's-grade electrical wiring that distributes electricity to your outlet have ANY effect on that power getting from your outlet to your equipment? It makes NO sense whatsoever, and I cannot think of a single scientific reason why it would.

Which is why everyone making recommendations provide no numbers. Too many posts are only wild speculation.

1) If a citation has validity, then it discusses connector and wire impedance, characteristic impedance, frequency response, and other parameters involving insulation. None are provided because the recommendations are based only in feelings. A classic example of junk science. Those wires are recommended only on myth – no numbers.

2) 'Shocking' are those who need more circuits. When does someone do elementary school arithmetic? Every appliance has a maximum current or power consumption number on a label where power enters. One simply adds those numbers before posting a question or answer.

Some simple concepts. That 20 amp breaker means each receptacle / plug can provide up to 15 amps. Total power consumption from any one device must never exceed 1440 watts. Obviously, information posted without numbers is wasting bandwidth. No numbers is the first indication of junk science speculation. Why do so many *know* their equipment needs cleaner power from a dedicated circuit? Because hearsay and the resulting fear said so.

The first thing anyone does is collect numbers.

3) Another serious mistake not made if one learns the lessons of history. Why were seven Challenger astronauts murdered? Well, a secondary (backup) O-ring existed. Therefore it was safe to launch - said the uneducated. Not even one engineer said it was safe to launch - for a long list of reasons. They could not find even one engineer who said it was safe to launch. If depending on a backup system (second O'ring or that circuit breaker), then you are ripe for failure.

If the primary O'ring did not work, then complete failure exists. You do same with label numbers. Every appliance has a number where its power cord connects. Your "primary O-ring" is simple addition. Never depend on the backup system (circuit breaker) to save your ass. A circuit breaker that does not trip says nothing useful. (Only useful fact is if the breaker trips.) Do that arithmetic at least once to appreciate failure before it happens. To grasp perspective. To appreciate why those recommending more circuits are promoting fear rather than knowledge.

Monster Cable was founded on the same myths that now promote those 'miracle' power cords. That same objective is also why Monster Cable sells plug-in protectors. So many 'know' rather than learn. Which means massive profits by promoting a scam. Monster’s easiest scams were ‘miracle’ wires. Promoted by citations (similar to those here) that had no tech numbers.

[Johk]

Here we go again...

[JimShaw]

Originally Posted by repete66211

My opinion: "Performance" power cords are 100% snake oil. I have seen no evidence to suggest otherwise. Should such evidence surface I would be happy to amend my position. Note: Testimonials and personal anecdotes do not constitute evidence for this any more than they do for weight loss products or any other scam out there.

Just buy a longer cord that is thick enough to handle the load.

I agree!

[ryan4blu]

Originally Posted by Johk

Here we go again...

yup, i ordered my cable and its on the way now. thanks to those who actually stuck to my original topic and helped answer some questions. oh also thanks for the links as well

im done with this thread until my cable shows up. i didnt start it to get so much technical jargen thrown around.

see ya

[rded]

Originally Posted by westom

Which is why everyone making recommendations provide no numbers. Too many posts are only wild speculation.


Some simple concepts. That 20 amp breaker means each receptacle / plug can provide up to 15 amps. Total power consumption from any one device must never exceed 1440 watts. Obviously, information posted without numbers is wasting bandwidth. No numbers is the first indication of junk science speculation. Why do so many *know* their equipment needs cleaner power from a dedicated circuit? Because hearsay and the resulting fear said so.

The first thing anyone does is collect numbers.

Westom:

If you are so enlightened and learned, please come up with a quantum calculation that may have been the causative factor of this:

Kindly tie-in rocket science "know how" into the solution.