Perfect Vision/Absolute Sound reports on the Lexicon BD-30

[WiWavelength]

Originally Posted by Gremal

Good. Audioholics deserves to go down in flames.

Shoot the messenger much, Gremal?

You blithely impugn Audioholics based upon your own unsubstantiated assumption that Audioholics "exposed" the Lexicon BD-30 to drive Audioholics own sales of the OPPO BDP-83. Cum hoc ergo propter hoc? You use a correlation fallacy to indict Audioholics. And it makes you look like an ass, Gremal.

Audioholics, on the other hand, deserves respect for including objective test bench measurements and deconstruction photos in its reviews, including that of the BD-30.

AJ

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by WiWavelength

Shoot the messenger much, Gremal?

You blithely impugn Audioholics based upon your own unsubstantiated assumption that Audioholics "exposed" the Lexicon BD-30 to drive Audioholics own sales of the OPPO BDP-83.

Kindly point out the post where I said that. You can't. Because I never said that. So at this point you need to eat your words.

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc? You use a correlation fallacy to indict Audioholics. And it makes you look like an ass, Gremal.

Actually, by your own logic, accusing one of something they didn't say makes you look that way.

Audioholics, on the other hand, deserves respect for including objective test bench measurements and deconstruction photos in its reviews, including that of the BD-30.

There was nothing objective in the Audioholics slam party and if Audioholics did its due diligence, as Martens did, it would have been understood why Lexicon introduced the product that way. No one was in the market for this product except if they owned other Lexicon gear to begin with, and the news that it would be a rebadged Oppo emerged six months ago. Audioholics stoked you guys into a frenzy and you went around the internet acting like animals. You're still doing it.

[ZoetMB]

There was nothing objective in the Audioholics slam party and if Audioholics did its due diligence, as Martens did, it would have been understood why Lexicon introduced the product that way.

I disagree. Why Lexicon did what they did is not relevant (to me). It's what they did and at what price. I think Audioholics performed a great service regardless of any perceived conflict-of-interest and I thought their review was totally objective as it compared design and measurable results. As consumers, we deserve to know what constitutes the products we consider for purchase. Audioholics exposed that the Lexicon, aside from the case (and now we learn, perhaps the software) is a rebadged OPPO at almost 10x the price. Similarly, Consumer Reports will tell you that a Lexis is nothing more than a high-end Camry with a nicer interior.

I also don't buy that this was all about Lexicon happening to use the same manufacturer as OPPO. This isn't about a few parts. I can assure you that OPPO's design was contractually unique to OPPO and therefore, that design was licensed to Lexicon with OPPO's full knowledge and involvement. Whether it was a license from OPPO or a license from the manufacturer is an open question, but I suspect it was a license from OPPO.

I also doubt your notion that Lexicon marketed this player primarily to sell to existing Lexicon customers. That brings diminishing returns. If anything, you market a new piece of equipment hoping that new customers buy the player, like it and then buy Lexicon's other products. But even if I'm wrong, Lexicon still deserves as much criticism as they're getting for fawning off someone else's work at 10x the price.

[kingofgrills]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I disagree. Why Lexicon did what they did is not relevant (to me). It's what they did and at what price. I think Audioholics performed a great service regardless of any perceived conflict-of-interest and I thought their review was totally objective as it compared design and measurable results. As consumers, we deserve to know what constitutes the products we consider for purchase. Audioholics exposed that the Lexicon, aside from the case (and now we learn, perhaps the software) is a rebadged OPPO at almost 10x the price. Similarly, Consumer Reports will tell you that a Lexis is nothing more than a high-end Camry with a nicer interior.

I also don't buy that this was all about Lexicon happening to use the same manufacturer as OPPO. This isn't about a few parts. I can assure you that OPPO's design was contractually unique to OPPO and therefore, that design was licensed to Lexicon with OPPO's full knowledge and involvement. Whether it was a license from OPPO or a license from the manufacturer is an open question, but I suspect it was a license from OPPO.

I also doubt your notion that Lexicon marketed this player primarily to sell to existing Lexicon customers. That brings diminishing returns. If anything, you market a new piece of equipment hoping that new customers buy the player, like it and then buy Lexicon's other products. But even if I'm wrong, Lexicon still deserves as much criticism as they're getting for fawning off someone else's work at 10x the price.

I don't believe anyone has said or insinuated that Lexicon just happened to be working with the same manufacturers as Oppo. The industry doesn't work like that. Oppo fully licensed their design and work out to Lexicon, and they worked together for their mutual benefit.

This certainly isn't the first time this has happened in the industry, and it's also far from being the last time. The sad reality is that the Lexicon player and the Oppo player are really designed for different universes, and normally they wouldn't cross paths. I think it's a shame that Lexicon didn't work on improving the audio side of the player as well, because that is the side of the standard issue player that is needing improvement. I would love to get a BDP-83 with improved audio, without having to pay for a BDP-83 Special Edition. I'm all in favor of the trickle-down theory, when it comes to electronics anyway.

My only question is this: Have the Lexicon "improvements" to the BDP-83 been in production since the release of the BDP-83, or was there a point in production where those changes were implemented. If the changes came after the BDP-83's introduction, is there a way to tell if you're buying an improved BDP-83?

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by kingofgrills

My only question is this: Have the Lexicon "improvements" to the BDP-83 been in production since the release of the BDP-83, or was there a point in production where those changes were implemented. If the changes came after the BDP-83's introduction, is there a way to tell if you're buying an improved BDP-83?

My understanding is that the improvements from the collaboration b/w Oppo, Lexicon, and THX are included in every Oppo BDP-83 ever produced. I read this from multiple sources, including a response from Jerry himself on Home Theater Review.

[gonk]

Originally Posted by kingofgrills

My only question is this: Have the Lexicon "improvements" to the BDP-83 been in production since the release of the BDP-83, or was there a point in production where those changes were implemented. If the changes came after the BDP-83's introduction, is there a way to tell if you're buying an improved BDP-83?

Originally Posted by EWL5

My understanding is that the improvements from the collaboration b/w Oppo, Lexicon, and THX are included in every Oppo BDP-83 ever produced. I read this from multiple sources, including a response from Jerry himself on Home Theater Review.

I've seen nothing that would contradict EWL5 on this, although I am not entirely clear on the matter.

[kingofgrills]

Originally Posted by EWL5

My understanding is that the improvements from the collaboration b/w Oppo, Lexicon, and THX are included in every Oppo BDP-83 ever produced. I read this from multiple sources, including a response from Jerry himself on Home Theater Review.

That's good to know, because I've been seriously considering the BDP-83 since it was released. Has anyone put together a DIY guide on how to make the BDP-83 quieter? Do that and you've matched pretty much matched the BD-30, performance-wise.

[crackinhedz]

At any rate, the video and audio performance characteristics of the Lexicon BD-30 and Oppo BDP-83 are essentially identical...

This is the only sentence that stood out to me.

...you can shove the entire Oppo into a Lexicon chasis to make it quieter, adjust the firmware, slap a THX logo on it etc, but at the end of the day...

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by kingofgrills

Has anyone put together a DIY guide on how to make the BDP-83 quieter? Do that and you've matched pretty much matched the BD-30, performance-wise.

Have you heard many reports that say the current BDP-83's noise is not tolerable? In my home theater, the Oppo is in an audio rack about a foot away from my primary seating position. No, it's not as quiet as my Denon 3800 but I also have never thought "OMG, there's that darn Oppo grinding again!"

You should audition it in your house as I think Oppo has a 30-day money back guarantee.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I disagree. Why Lexicon did what they did is not relevant (to me). It's what they did and at what price. I think Audioholics performed a great service regardless of any perceived conflict-of-interest and I thought their review was totally objective as it compared design and measurable results.

If Audioholics was objective, it would have learned what Martens reported: that Lexicon collaborated on the design with Oppo, taking on at least some of the cost, and doing final assembly line and firmware work in the states (which is more expensive). Audioholics failed to report that Lexicon is going after a niche market and the BD-30 was targeting existing Lexicon customers that wanted a BD player to work with their Lexicon preamps and amps.

By failing to mention any of that and pretend that Lexicon was doing something untoward, Audioholics was able to whip up anger among many who were never in the market for a Lexicon.

As consumers, we deserve to know what constitutes the products we consider for purchase.

How was anything hidden from you about this product, ever? As long ago as July, folks were complaining that the Lexicon was just a rebadged Oppo. We already knew that. Audioholics told us nothing new.

Similarly, Consumer Reports will tell you that a Lexis is nothing more than a high-end Camry with a nicer interior.

No one needs consumer reports to tell them this. The relationship between Lexis, Toyota and Scion are a matter of public record. Further, Consumer Reports adheres to some semblance of journalistic standards. Its reporters put their articles in the proper context. They also get comments from companies before going to press with information that might harm the company's reputation. And on a final note, people in the market for a luxury auto are willing to pay a premium for some real or perceived benefit, just like Lexicon owners are willing to pay a premium for having firmware and the Lexicon badge that aligns their BD player with their other gear.

I also don't buy that this was all about Lexicon happening to use the same manufacturer as OPPO. This isn't about a few parts. I can assure you that OPPO's design was contractually unique to OPPO and therefore, that design was licensed to Lexicon with OPPO's full knowledge and involvement. Whether it was a license from OPPO or a license from the manufacturer is an open question, but I suspect it was a license from OPPO.

Read the top-posted article again. Kellom says Lexicon collaborated on some design points; Lexicon's recommendations were eventually adopted by Oppo. So Lexicon's involvement raised the bar for Oppo customers too. The companies had a relationship.

I also doubt your notion that Lexicon marketed this player primarily to sell to existing Lexicon customers. That brings diminishing returns.

Every company must "know thy market". Lexicon and Oppo have different markets and can sell at different pricepoints. With few exceptions, you will not find anyone who is in the market for a Lexicon BD player aside from existing Lexicon customers who own Lexicon amps and preamps, which is what the company is known for.

But even if I'm wrong, Lexicon still deserves as much criticism as they're getting for fawning off someone else's work at 10x the price.

The irony is that Lexicon's collaborative agreement with Oppo on the project may have allowed all Oppo customers to benefit from Lexicon's input at one-tenth the price. For that input, Lexicon is now being slammed by every half-wit who can log onto Audioholics.

[Intamin]

Originally Posted by Gremal

If Audioholics was objective, it would have learned what Martens reported: that Lexicon collaborated on the design with Oppo, taking on at least some of the cost, and doing final assembly line and firmware work in the states (which is more expensive). Audioholics failed to report that Lexicon is going after a niche market and the BD-30 was targeting existing Lexicon customers that wanted a BD player to work with their Lexicon preamps and amps.

It was obvious that Lexicon "collaborated" on the design, they paid Oppo money to use it. And why would they need to report that Lexicon is going after a niche market, the price tag alone clearly makes it a niche market, regardless of which niche they're going after. Finally, Audioholics did attempt to report this, but never heard back from Lexicon.

How was anything hidden from you about this product, ever? As long ago as July, folks were complaining that the Lexicon was just a rebadged Oppo. We already knew that. Audioholics told us nothing new.

What's hidden is the fact that they plopped down an Oppo chassis into a Lexicon chassis without changing a thing. Not that this was rebadged, since that has been known since July as you stated.




No one needs consumer reports to tell them this. The relationship between Lexis, Toyota and Scion are a matter of public record. Further, Consumer Reports adheres to some semblance of journalistic standards. Its reporters put their articles in the proper context. They also get comments from companies before going to press with information that might harm the company's reputation. And on a final note, people in the market for a luxury auto are willing to pay a premium for some real or perceived benefit, just like Lexicon owners are willing to pay a premium for having firmware and the Lexicon badge that aligns their BD player with their other gear.

You can't compare cars in this situation. You can drive a Toyota and then drive a Lexis and see/feel a clear difference. Everyone knows they are built on the same platform. You pay for the improved interior, the better leather, real wood, better transmission, better handling, better service, etc. You don't buy a Lexis that is identical in every way to a Toyota save for the paint job, or maybe a fancier bumper because there are actual differences in the product. Lexicon was trying to sell the same "car" with a different body.


Read the top-posted article again. Kellom says Lexicon collaborated on some design points; Lexicon's recommendations were eventually adopted by Oppo. So Lexicon's involvement raised the bar for Oppo customers too. The companies had a relationship.



Every company must "know thy market". Lexicon and Oppo have different markets and can sell at different pricepoints. With few exceptions, you will not find anyone who is in the market for a Lexicon BD player aside from existing Lexicon customers who own Lexicon amps and preamps, which is what the company is known for.



The irony is that Lexicon's collaborative agreement with Oppo on the project may have allowed all Oppo customers to benefit from Lexicon's input at one-tenth the price. For that input, Lexicon is now being slammed by every half-wit who can log onto Audioholics.

If you buy the fact that they actually collaborate on this at any point. So Ayre and Theta must have collaborated too right?Lexicon already lied in the fact they tried to pass off their player as THX certified, I wouldn't put it past them to say they collaborated to save some face.

My responses in blue. My final point is the entire time you try to discredit Audioholics for using proven tests to show the players are identical. You argued that until someone listened to the players that these claims couldn't be made. You also said that the Audioholics findings when examining the boards wasn't conclusive if a change had been made because for some reason they didn't know how to tell if something minor had been switched and the pictures weren't good enough. Then, this review comes out and says the same thing that the players are identical, and since you agree with this review, your "science has no meaning for sound quality" doesn't have merit, and Audioholics was right all along, which should give them even more credit for doing an in depth comparison with actual evidence, not audible memory (which lasts an entire 3 seconds) to back their claims.

[Halcro 1]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I disagree. Why Lexicon did what they did is not relevant (to me). It's what they did and at what price. I think Audioholics performed a great service regardless of any perceived conflict-of-interest and I thought their review was totally objective as it compared design and measurable results. As consumers, we deserve to know what constitutes the products we consider for purchase. Audioholics exposed that the Lexicon, aside from the case (and now we learn, perhaps the software) is a rebadged OPPO at almost 10x the price. Similarly, Consumer Reports will tell you that a Lexis is nothing more than a high-end Camry with a nicer interior.

I also don't buy that this was all about Lexicon happening to use the same manufacturer as OPPO. This isn't about a few parts. I can assure you that OPPO's design was contractually unique to OPPO and therefore, that design was licensed to Lexicon with OPPO's full knowledge and involvement. Whether it was a license from OPPO or a license from the manufacturer is an open question, but I suspect it was a license from OPPO.

I also doubt your notion that Lexicon marketed this player primarily to sell to existing Lexicon customers. That brings diminishing returns. If anything, you market a new piece of equipment hoping that new customers buy the player, like it and then buy Lexicon's other products. But even if I'm wrong, Lexicon still deserves as much criticism as they're getting for fawning off someone else's work at 10x the price.

If what Lexicon did isnt revalant to you ... Why are you bringing it up ??? and Im shure Lexicon came out with this player to sell to Lexicon customers...Brand loyality is alive and well in the uber-fi world .....Most people who own McIntosh have more than one of their components...

[PeterTHX]

All I have to say it seems my OPPO seems to be better for this relationship with Lexicon.

PS: Guys, it's LEXUS, not Lexis.

[Gremal]

Rich, let me know how the mods turn out. I know Ric Schultz at EVS is very critical of the NuForce mods, but so far I'm mostly pleased. The noise is irritating to me but like I said it's not a dealbreaker.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

PS: Guys, it's LEXUS, not Lexis.

Guess we were too used to typing Lexicon.

Originally Posted by Intamin

It was obvious that Lexicon "collaborated" on the design, they paid Oppo money to use it. And why would they need to report that Lexicon is going after a niche market, the price tag alone clearly makes it a niche market, regardless of which niche they're going after. Finally, Audioholics did attempt to report this, but never heard back from Lexicon.

Oh please. The whole thrust of Audioholics' expose was a "gotcha" type of slant, pretending like Lexicon "stole" the Oppo and was caught with its pants down.

What's hidden is the fact that they plopped down an Oppo chassis into a Lexicon chassis without changing a thing. Not that this was rebadged, since that has been known since July as you stated.

That's what rebadged means. And why should they change anything?!? They collaborated on the design and got Oppo to implement their recommendations. They then assembled the unit in Indiana with firmware to complement other Lexicon gear for the customers who'd want a Lexicon BD player.

You can't compare cars in this situation. You can drive a Toyota and then drive a Lexis and see/feel a clear difference.

That's not true. One of the complaints of Lexus is it's the same as driving a Camry but with modifications to the interior, just like the lynch mob's complaints about the Lexicon is it's the same as an Oppo but with modifications to the exterior. In both cases, the luxury brand charges a premium.

My final point is the entire time you try to discredit Audioholics for using proven tests to show the players are identical.

Sorry if I gave that impression, but what I meant is the tests were not relevant. Why would the Lexicon test different? Why would it have different values for resistors and capacitors and other parts?

You argued that until someone listened to the players that these claims couldn't be made.

I argued that the only measuring device that matters is the human ear. And in fact, Martens quickly realized that the dampening of the chassis makes the player run quieter, which is a difference is it not?

You also said that the Audioholics findings when examining the boards wasn't conclusive if a change had been made because for some reason they didn't know how to tell if something minor had been switched and the pictures weren't good enough. Then, this review comes out and says the same thing that the players are identical, and since you agree with this review, your "science has no meaning for sound quality" doesn't have merit, and Audioholics was right all along, which should give them even more credit for doing an in depth comparison with actual evidence, not audible memory (which lasts an entire 3 seconds) to back their claims.

If you want to have another debate about bench test measurements vs the ear's perception of a component, I will argue for listening every day. My amp measures quite poorly on the bench but it's the best amp I've ever heard. As Daniel von Recklinghausen once said, "If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing." The ear and the brain it's connected to are the ultimate measuring tools, refined by hundreds of millions of years of evolution (if you believe in that) and so complex that all those bench instruments Audioholics seems so proud of--they don't amount to much. But my main complaint about Audioholics is that they acted irresponsibly and without the proper perspective...just to stoke up anger against Lexicon.

[PeterTHX]

Seems to me the noise of the OPPO is caused by the SATA BD-ROM drive it uses.

Which one is it and can't Lexicon simply use another?

[Intamin]

Originally Posted by Gremal

Rich, let me know how the mods turn out. I know Ric Schultz at EVS is very critical of the NuForce mods, but so far I'm mostly pleased. The noise is irritating to me but like I said it's not a dealbreaker.



Guess we were too used to typing Lexicon.



Oh please. The whole thrust of Audioholics' expose was a "gotcha" type of slant, pretending like Lexicon "stole" the Oppo and was caught with its pants down.

It may have come off that way to you, but it still didn't make the article any less true.



That's what rebadged means. And why should they change anything?!? They collaborated on the design and got Oppo to implement their recommendations. They then assembled the unit in Indiana with firmware to complement other Lexicon gear for the customers who'd want a Lexicon BD player.

Earlier you were arguing that they possibly changed the DAC's since they weren't shown in the Audioholics pictures, or that caps and resistors may have been changed etc, which is why they charged the premium...Audioholics was stating nothing was done. This article states the same.

That's not true. One of the complaints of Lexus is it's the same as driving a Camry but with modifications to the interior, just like the lynch mob's complaints about the Lexicon is it's the same as an Oppo but with modifications to the exterior. In both cases, the luxury brand charges a premium.
Well, my dad has owned multiple Lexus, including their top of line sedan, and I'd argue that it drove nothing like a Toyota. But that's neither here nor there. Even if it were just a change in the interior though, you'd at least see enough differences to know you're getting two separate things and that there was added expense for a finer interior. I can't imagine machining a faceplate can be that expensive, considering Lexicon is owned by Harmon so I'm sure they can pump out chassis cheaply due to economies of scale, even if the Lexicon run is for only a few thousand players.


Sorry if I gave that impression, but what I meant is the tests were not relevant. Why would the Lexicon test different? Why would it have different values for resistors and capacitors and other parts?



I argued that the only measuring device that matters is the human ear. And in fact, Martens quickly realized that the dampening of the chassis makes the player run quieter, which is a difference is it not? The player may run quieter, but I've never really seen an issue with people saying the Oppo makes noise to be distracting or audible either, so I'd say it's moot. But yes, adding an extra shell should make it operate quieter.



If you want to have another debate about bench test measurements vs the ear's perception of a component, I will argue for listening every day. My amp measures quite poorly on the bench but it's the best amp I've ever heard. As Daniel von Recklinghausen once said, "If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing." The ear and the brain it's connected to are the ultimate measuring tools, refined by hundreds of millions of years of evolution (if you believe in that) and so complex that all those bench instruments Audioholics seems so proud of--they don't amount to much. But my main complaint about Audioholics is that they acted irresponsibly and without the proper perspective...just to stoke up anger against Lexicon.

I'd argue your amp isn't really a good example. It's tube. Most tube amps measure horribly, but people love the distortion that tubes add. For solid state components, the engineering is well beyond the point of diminishing returns where people are trying to fix things that's -80db below the level of the track, completely unnoticed. Therefore, the measurements of solid state equipment are more than sufficient to say how it will sound because the things that would affect the sound of the equipment are inaudible. Tubes on the other hand, well we know they distort, and they distort differently adding coloration to the sound. If you were judging tubes on specs and made a purchase blindly, you'd probably have no idea what you'd get. As far as your main complaint, I see your side; I just didn't understand your reasoning for wanting to defend Lexicon. Finally, none of this really matters in the end since I'm not buying a Lexicon (although that faceplate is attractive I will say), you aren't buying one, and the people who would buy one probably don't care one way or the other if it's Oppo or not. Anyways, I did enjoy discussing this with you.