Recomend Sub for Paradigm Millenia 20's

[drummerboy_2002]

About a year ago I upgraded my front 3 to the 20's. Now it's time to upgrade my old sub. There are so many sub companies out there, I don't really know where to start looking.

Needs:
- Flat responce from 20 to 120 hz.
- Auto on/off
- LFE input
- Phase control

Wants:
- Small footprint (this can be due to cube sub, or tube sub [WAF])
- Style to match gloss black 20's.

Room Diamentions:
- L shaped livingroom (18w16d12h)/entry (8w6d12h) [aproximations]
- Openings to hall, kitchen and dining room.

Notes:
While I mostly watch movies and play games, I tend toward a musical preference from my sound. In other words, I prefer accuracy over power. Also, I'd like to keep this under $500, but I've learned from my last outting that my budget is more of a suggestion than a requirement.

Thanks to any and all with a suggestion.

[callas01]

For a very flat response and small footprint the VTF-1 by Hsu Research would be great. And it is very much in your price point, its roll off begins at 25 hz, but you can expect it to get lower by about 2 hz once in your room, it will sounds much deeper then the specs state, and full sounding too. There is also the STF-2 for $319 plus shipping, it isn't as flat a response, but pretty dam flat too.

You can get the eD A2-350 also for $350, there is a 4 week lead time at the moment, but it will get to 18 hz, and has a flat response, but not as flat as the Hsu subs do.

[drummerboy_2002]

Originally Posted by callas01

For a very flat response and small footprint the VTF-1 by Hsu Research would be great... You can get the eD A2-350 also for $350, there is a 4 week lead time at the moment, but it will get to 18 hz, and has a flat response, but not as flat as the Hsu subs do.

Nice! I see a pic for the VTF-1 in espresso, but it's not listed in the "add to cart" section. Not that I'm purchasing right this second. Anyway,.. both excellent choices. Thanks.

Anyone else want to add a contender to the list?

[Steve]

For a small footprint you should also check out the cylinder subs from SVS. They start with the PC12-NSD for $600. I know they're more than the eD, but looking at the part where you want a small footprint, and this sub is 16" in diameter. Forum member Fors* has two of these and I'm sure he wouldn't mind if you sent him a PM asking what he thinks of them.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by Steve

For a small footprint you should also check out the cylinder subs from SVS. They start with the PC12-NSD for $600. I know they're more than the eD, but looking at the part where you want a small footprint, and this sub is 16" in diameter. Forum member Fors* has two of these and I'm sure he wouldn't mind if you sent him a PM asking what he thinks of them.

Or I could show him how I feel....

[drummerboy_2002]

Originally Posted by Steve

For a small footprint you should also check out the cylinder subs from SVS. They start with the PC12-NSD for $600. I know they're more than the eD, but looking at the part where you want a small footprint, and this sub is 16" in diameter. Forum member Fors* has two of these and I'm sure he wouldn't mind if you sent him a PM asking what he thinks of them.

Originally Posted by Fors*

Or I could show him how I feel....

I will definitely add the SVS PC12-NSD to my list.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by drummerboy_2002

I will definitely add the SVS PC12-NSD to my list.

You should check them out.....the cylinder subs look amazing, and yet do not sacrifice any performance. There is nothing quite like them....

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Fors*

You should check them out.....the cylinder subs look amazing, and yet do not sacrifice any performance. There is nothing quite like them....

I think it's also safe to say they completely remove the issue of trying to match a sub to your speakers aesthetically, since they're covered in fabric all the way around.

On a side note, Fors have you considered making new socks for yours in a different color? I've heard of people doing this.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by Steve

I think it's also safe to say they completely remove the issue of trying to match a sub to your speakers aesthetically, since they're covered in fabric all the way around.

On a side note, Fors have you considered making new socks for yours in a different color? I've heard of people doing this.

I have and funny you say that, I have always meant to ask SVS themselves why they don't offer this as an accessory. I am going to e-mail them now....

[callas01]

Originally Posted by drummerboy_2002

Nice! I see a pic for the VTF-1 in espresso, but it's not listed in the "add to cart" section. Not that I'm purchasing right this second. Anyway,.. both excellent choices. Thanks.

Anyone else want to add a contender to the list?

call them, I am sure they can have one really quickly, Hsu subs are awesome.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Fors*

I have and funny you say that, I have always meant to ask SVS themselves why they don't offer this as an accessory. I am going to e-mail them now....

I'm curious to know what you find out. If you can get fabric covers for your subs that blend well with the walls or furniture then you should be able to put 3 or 4 more of these in your room without your wife ever noticing.

[drummerboy_2002]

I took a look at the SVS, HSU and ED a bit last night. So far I'm leaning towards the HSU and SVS. Does anyone have any experience with more than one of these(3)? I need some way to compare them. Also, any more contenders, or is this the cream of the crop for my requirements?

Thanks

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by drummerboy_2002

I took a look at the SVS, HSU and ED a bit last night. So far I'm leaning towards the HSU and SVS. Does anyone have any experience with more than one of these(3)? I need some way to compare them. Also, any more contenders, or is this the cream of the crop for my requirements?

Thanks

Erict has an eD and SVS sub in his set-up...you could send him a PM for his opinion....

[erict]

Originally Posted by Fors*

Erict has an eD and SVS sub in his set-up...you could send him a PM for his opinion....

I will beat him to the punch As far as both subs you defiantly can't go wrong. But for you're requirements the SVS would be the best option because of the footprint. That was the main reason I ended up pairing one with my eD. eD makes one hell of a sub but they are beasts and if you need to satisfy the wife then I would recommend one of the SVS cylinder subs, small foot print but strong bass performance.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by erict

I will beat him to the punch As far as both subs you defiantly can't go wrong. But for you're requirements the SVS would be the best option because of the footprint. That was the main reason I ended up pairing one with my eD. eD makes one hell of a sub but they are beasts and if you need to satisfy the wife then I would recommend one of the SVS cylinder subs, small foot print but strong bass performance.

erict....how did you dial those 2 beasts in anyway? Did you ever have any issues with cancellation or with one of the 2 subs outperforming the other to the point that the lesser sub sounded directional?

When I had my Polk PSW10 with the PC12, that was a big challenge. I ended up crossing over the Polk sub at like 40-50Hz and letting the SVS sub handle everything below that to get them to sound balanced and to where the Polk sub wouldn't start "chuffing" on the much lower frequencies.

In your case, they are much more similiar, but still different, so I am curious.....

[erict]

Originally Posted by Fors*

erict....how did you dial those 2 beasts in anyway? Did you ever have any issues with cancellation or with one of the 2 subs outperforming the other to the point that the lesser sub sounded directional?

When I had my Polk PSW10 with the PC12, that was a big challenge. I ended up crossing over the Polk sub at like 40-50Hz and letting the SVS sub handle everything below that to get them to sound balanced and to where the Polk sub wouldn't start "chuffing" on the much lower frequencies.

In your case, they are much more similiar, but still different, so I am curious.....

I had the same problem you did when I had my eD paired with my Energy ESW-10. They worked together but you could tell the ed just was two much and more times then not it overpowered the ESW-10. I then started my quest for a second sub which I turned to eD first but giving the spot where the second sub was going I was limited to room. I talked to eD and I could have had a custom sub built but it would have ended up being more then the SVS in which I started to look into because of you Between the two I have a very hard time telling the difference other then enclosure size. It was fairly easy to get the two to blend together with the help of an SPL meter of course. I haven't messed around since I set it up but plain too as I think I can get even more out of the dual and I may even mess around with placement. But right now they really rock so I'm not in a rush.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by erict

I had the same problem you did when I had my eD paired with my Energy ESW-10. They worked together but you could tell the ed just was two much and more times then not it overpowered the ESW-10. I then started my quest for a second sub which I turned to eD first but giving the spot where the second sub was going I was limited to room. I talked to eD and I could have had a custom sub built but it would have ended up being more then the SVS in which I started to look into because of you Between the two I have a very hard time telling the difference other then enclosure size. It was fairly easy to get the two to blend together with the help of an SPL meter of course. I haven't messed around since I set it up but plain too as I think I can get even more out of the dual and I may even mess around with placement. But right now they really rock so I'm not in a rush.

I see. Have you ever tested the phase of the 2 subs? When I added my second PC12 I asked SVS on how to check out if I had any phase cancellations going on and Ed replied with the following, which uses the SPL meter.....

Here's the calibration routine for dual subwoofers so you can ensure they're playing well together:



1. Set the AVR master volume to 0.0

2. Set the phase to 0 on both subs.

3. Set the SPL meter to C-weighted Slow 70 scale at the listening position, at head level, pointed at the front stage, and angled upward at a 45 degree angle.

4. Play the test tones for all speaker channels and adjust each channel to 75 dB on the meter (that would be +5 on the meter when set to the 70 scale).

5. Set the subwoofer channel level to +1 in the AVR.

6. Turn on subwoofer #1 only. Play the subwoofer test tone and adjust the gain on subwoofer #1 until the SPL meter reads 72-74 dB (it will fluctuate so try for an average of 73 dB).

7. Turn on subwoofer #2 only. Play the subwoofer test tone and adjust the gain on subwoofer #2 until the SPL meter reads 72-74 dB (it will fluctuate so try for an average of 73 dB).

8. Turn on both subwoofers. Play the subwoofer test tone and verify there is a 6 dB increase to 78-80 dB (an average of 79 dB).

9. If there is not a 6 dB increase, adjust the phase on the CLOSER subwoofer until you get the most possible reinforcement. If the subs are separated, you may only get 4 dB max. A helper is useful at this point.
10. Once you have achieved the most possible reinforcement, reduce the subwoofer channel level until the combined SPL with both subwoofers running is 73-75 dB on average.

OP, IMO whichever of the 3 (Hsu, eD or SVS) you can't really go wrong. It becomes more about aesthetics and size than the difference in the sound when you consider these 3 subs.

[erict]

Originally Posted by Fors*

I see. Have you ever tested the phase of the 2 subs? When I added my second PC12 I asked SVS on how to check out if I had any phase cancellations going on and Ed replied with the following, which uses the SPL meter......

I tried but could not tell or see (spl) the difference. But next time I will try it the way SVS recommends it. I hope I can find the info at that time Maybe you have it saved for me

[Steve]

Originally Posted by erict

I tried but could not tell or see (spl) the difference. But next time I will try it the way SVS recommends it. I hope I can find the info at that time Maybe you have it saved for me

Just print what Fors posted above and put that piece of paper with your SPL meter.

[erict]

Originally Posted by Steve

Just print what Fors posted above and put that piece of paper with your SPL meter.

You took all the fun out of it for Fors to save it for me