Ask questions to The Digital Bits team (Bill Hunt, Jeff Kleist et.al.)

[Jeff Kleist]

I might pre-order LOTR at Best Buy just to get the steel, and not pick it up

[micks_address]

oh no.. dont split the films over 2 discs.. its not laziness (one of the great things with blu-ray it should fit on one disc).. i just want the extended editions on one disc each.... i'm happy to buy the theatrical releases first.. and then the extended editions later.. they are different films really.. and i enjoy both cuts of each.. the fellowships is my favourite so cant wait to see it on HD

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Not on a 3.5-4 hour high action movie you don't. The quality penalty is too high

Hopefully they just put it onto 2 discs, if you're too lazy to get up after 2 hours to change it you have bigger problems

[DaViD Boulet]

Originally Posted by micks_address

oh no.. dont split the films over 2 discs.. its not laziness (one of the great things with blu-ray it should fit on one disc).. i just want the extended editions on one disc each.... i'm happy to buy the theatrical releases first.. and then the extended editions later.. they are different films really.. and i enjoy both cuts of each.. the fellowships is my favourite so cant wait to see it on HD

That "don't you need to take a bathroom break anyway" argument for spreading the film over 2 discs keeps coming back and apparently some HT enthusiasts just don't grasp that *when* you want to pick your point to pause a film for a bathroom break should be your choice, and not predicated by a format limitation imposing a break in a fixed spot that bears no relationship to the flow of the film or the intention of the artist.

Films made with a boni-fide intermission are one thing, but the LOTR extended cuts, even though some projections had intermissions, were not really designed that way... the flow of the film continues almost seamlessly before/after the supposed break point. It's best to let film lovers have the possibility to enjoy the continuous film without the intrusion of hardware disc-change needs interrupting the film experience and breaking the mood.

and yes, should such an enthusiast need to take a bathroom break at any time, he/she can probably locate the pause-button on his/her remote.

BTW, not sure if folks in this thread are aware, but Sony and Panasonic have just figured out a way to get 33 gigs on a single later blu-ray and 66 gigs on a dual-layer disc. This is done by an improvement in software used to read discs, not new physical drive or disc alterations, and firmware updates should allow all existing players to read 33GB single layer and 66GB dual-layer discs. This new disc capacity could be in place by the time the EE sets come out, making it even easier to get the extended cuts on a single disc if 50GB was providing any sort of barrier.

[wallendo]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

...
BTW, not sure if folks in this thread are aware, but Sony and Panasonic have just figured out a way to get 33 gigs on a single later blu-ray and 66 gigs on a dual-layer disc. This is done by an improvement in software used to read discs, not new physical drive or disc alterations, and firmware updates should allow all existing players to read 33GB single layer and 66GB dual-layer discs. This new disc capacity could be in place by the time the EE sets come out, making it even easier to get the extended cuts on a single disc if 50GB was providing any sort of barrier.

The idea of extra capacity sounds good, but I doubt it will happen for video BD's. You state that all players should be able to play the new discs with a firmware update. I do not believe that all players would receive these firmware updates. A lot of unsuspecting people would become quite upset when they buy a BD disc and then get home and find out that it doesn't work on their players. The average consumer doesn't want home electronics that are on the cutting edge, they want home electronics that just plain work (like DVD). BD market share is still only around 20%. Constantly evolving standards a la Laserdisc will just about guarantee that BD remains a niche product.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by wallendo

The idea of extra capacity sounds good, but I doubt it will happen for video BD's.

I think it's also unnecessary in this instance. As long as the extras are off-loaded to second discs, the LOTR EEs should have no problem fitting on single BD 50s with enough bandwidth for excellent image quality.

[SpaceDog]

I think the quality of the presentation should be paramount and should trump disc spread count every day.
If they can get the best quality presentation for each EE on one disc, great. If they can't, use 2 discs. Shouldn't there be some sort of BD-J app that would allow a multi-disc changer to seamlessly blend 2 discs of a film like this?

[Jeff Kleist]

That "don't you need to take a bathroom break anyway" argument for spreading the film over 2 discs keeps coming back and apparently some HT enthusiasts just don't grasp that *when* you want to pick your point to pause a film for a bathroom break should be your choice, and not predicated by a format limitation imposing a break in a fixed spot that bears no relationship to the flow of the film or the intention of the artist.

Films made with a boni-fide intermission are one thing, but the LOTR extended cuts, even though some projections had intermissions, were not really designed that way... the flow of the film continues almost seamlessly before/after the supposed break point. It's best to let film lovers have the possibility to enjoy the continuous film without the intrusion of hardware disc-change needs interrupting the film experience and breaking the mood.

That would be news to Peter Jackson, who constructed his extended cuts with specific knowlege from the beginning that there would be a break point. Considering that the technology exists already, as seen on the Lost discs, to make the time to boot the next disc a few seconds, I hardly see the benefit of cramming 4 hours on a single disc versus letting it breathe and look it's best on 2. Don't forget how much better the EEs looked over theatrical on DVD.

[MerrickG]

To close the subject of the EE for me:

PJ says no EE right now which is f**king stupid.

A simple solution:
Just put the EEs on discs and port the extras from the EE dvds and be done with it. Seriously HOW FREAKIN hard is that? WHy dick with the fans by doing it the way they are? Just do that and THEN release the be-all-end-all 10 disc special editions on bluray when the time is right. I just want the films and think its retarded that preparing proper "extras" are holding back the films release.

No EE = no sale.

Thats the end of the subject for the EEs for me. No further comments.

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

.

BTW, not sure if folks in this thread are aware, but Sony and Panasonic have just figured out a way to get 33 gigs on a single later blu-ray and 66 gigs on a dual-layer disc. This is done by an improvement in software used to read discs, not new physical drive or disc alterations, and firmware updates should allow all existing players to read 33GB single layer and 66GB dual-layer discs. This new disc capacity could be in place by the time the EE sets come out, making it even easier to get the extended cuts on a single disc if 50GB was providing any sort of barrier.

I am 99.9% certain that Penton-Man said this will NEVER happen. Even though there were articles claiming exactly what you are saying, Penton said they were false.

99.9% sure.

Edit:Pentons response is bolded -------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by aygie
http://www.engadget.com/

hey Penton, any tidbits you can share about this? Is it more likely to be just a firmware update or new machines?

^ According to WHO at Sony?
The story is incorrect. There is no such capacity increase coming.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Considering that the technology exists already, as seen on the Lost discs, to make the time to boot the next disc a few seconds, I hardly see the benefit of cramming 4 hours on a single disc versus letting it breathe and look it's best on 2.

No reason to cram it; a BD 50 is plenty.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Don't forget how much better the EEs looked over theatrical on DVD.

And also don't forget what an utterly apples-and-oranges comparison that is. The relationship between the sizes of mpeg2 video and redbook DVDs and of Blu-ray video formats and BD discs is quite different.

[MerrickG]

On another note,

WHat is your opinion of DLC being pushed so heavily for gaming nowadays?

Im all for it as long as its properly priced. My view on DLC is that if you loved the original game enough to buy extras to extend the experience beyond the original game then I consider them fantastic. Doesnt interest you? Dont buy it?

Examples the Fallout 3 DLC were considered a letdown for most, but I had a blast with them for the simple fact that it meant more Fallout 3. Of course, getting them on the Game of the Year Edition for $35 helped a lot.

My only concern is that many devolopers will start cutting content from the main game so they can make extra off of DLC. I fear that there will be a day when games will end on a cliffhanger and you will have to buy the ending as DLC. As long as DLC doesnt become that, Im all in favor of it.

[Jeff Kleist]

To close the subject of the EE for me:

PJ says no EE right now which is f**king stupid.

Patience Daniel-san, there may be reward at the other end of the tunnel for it..........

BTW, not sure if folks in this thread are aware, but Sony and Panasonic have just figured out a way to get 33 gigs on a single later blu-ray and 66 gigs on a dual-layer disc. This is done by an improvement in software used to read discs, not new physical drive or disc alterations, and firmware updates should allow all existing players to read 33GB single layer and 66GB dual-layer discs. This new disc capacity could be in place by the time the EE sets come out, making it even easier to get the extended cuts on a single disc if 50GB was providing any sort of barrier.

This is "overburn". Essentially they got it up to that capacity in the best case scenario tests. Real world benefit practical for large scale production, an additional 2-3GB, 5 at most. That's useful for 2.5 hours, not 4.

[Jeff Kleist]

No reason to cram it; a BD 50 is plenty......And also don't forget what an utterly apples-and-oranges comparison that is. The relationship between the sizes of mpeg2 video and redbook DVDs and of Blu-ray video formats and BD discs is quite different.

Not really ,especially with all the maximum movie modes and such you know are coming. Not for a 4-hour high action film. A BD-50 I would classify as "barely enough" Seriously, I don't understand this issue people have with changing discs. Good thing you guys never lived in the LD era

4 hours of movie pretty much caps you at a 20mbps ABR for video, audio (3mbps for 24-bit lossless), Maximum Movie Mode/PiP(3-5mbps by itself) combined, or essentially an HD DVD version. No thank you for a grainy high action flick. So right there, you've got 12mbps left for video (The ABR of Batman Begins, and while compression has advanced, 12mbps is still 12). And no, they're not going to leave that stuff off. Let's not forget a few extra mbps of dub languages too. Still want it on 1 disc?

WHat is your opinion of DLC being pushed so heavily for gaming nowadays?

Im all for it as long as its properly priced. My view on DLC is that if you loved the original game enough to buy extras to extend the experience beyond the original game then I consider them fantastic.
.

I found the Fallout 3 DLC to be hit and miss. I enjoyed The Pitt and Point Lookout. The alien one was kinda neat, the other 2 were OK. The intention of DLC first and foremost is to squeeze extra money out of you. The second intention is to keep you from selling the game back to Gamestop as quickly. If they can have you keep your mitts on it for 2-3 months it's gold

This, combined with the Assassin's Creed 2 style scenario. Games are simply not given enough development time these days. It used to be that 2 years was plenty of time, but with these huge open worlds and high-res graphics, realistically a first game in a series not built on existing tech should have 3-4 years in production, and sequels 2. That's why we're seeing the "tech demo" (AC1, Mass Effect 1) as the first game, and the second game being the game they really wanted to make. They literally ran out of time on AC2 to finish those parts, so they offered them up at minimal cost that basically covered some of the extra dev time and the fees from MS/Sony ($7).

They won't "sell you the ending". I do think that there might be more instances like Fable 2, where they break a larger game up into cheaper pieces. What EA is doing with Dragon Age, and I hope Mass Effect looks pretty positive to me. They just need to make sure that what they offer is worth what they charge. I don't want to see these games become MMORPG grindfests

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Don't forget how much better the EEs looked over theatrical on DVD.

I'm fine with the EE's being put on 2 discs... however, I have always wondered how the 1-disc seamless branching DVD releases looked. I assume pretty bad... but I must admit to being curious...

~Alan

[DaViD Boulet]

Not really ,especially with all the maximum movie modes and such you know are coming. Not for a 4-hour high action film. A BD-50 I would classify as "barely enough" Seriously, I don't understand this issue people have with changing discs. Good thing you guys never lived in the LD era

I lived during the LD... I still own hundreds of 12" platters.

side-changing and disc-changing was the thing I hated most about laserdisc as it was the thing that was most "un-movie" and the major reason I embraced DVD whole-heartedly.

16x9 progressive 480p component video were some other reasons I loved DVD of course.

BTW having watched some titles so many times on laserdisc (Toy Story, Much Ado About Nothing, Black Stallion) even now on DVD/blu-ray I still "cringe" for a moment right where I remember the side-change... kind of like folks who first got to know an album on cassette tape still anticipate the auto-reverse/tape-flip after that one song.

Last night I watched The Dark Crystal on blu-ray and was so relieved that when it finished I realized I had lost the association with the laserdisc side-change memory. What a difference it made to enjoy a favorite long-loved film and just watch it... from start to finish... with no interruption and no "take me out of the movie" emotional-pull-back from my memory of when that inevitable pause used to happen.

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

I found the Fallout 3 DLC to be hit and miss. I enjoyed The Pitt and Point Lookout. The alien one was kinda neat, the other 2 were OK. The intention of DLC first and foremost is to squeeze extra money out of you. The second intention is to keep you from selling the game back to Gamestop as quickly. If they can have you keep your mitts on it for 2-3 months it's gold.

Yeah, I felt that the DLC for Fallout 3 was mediocre compared to the first game, but it was still fun in that it extended the experience beyond the original game. I never have high expectations for DLC, but its cheap and it if it gives you a few more hours of gameplay Im all for it, plus you always have the option to not buy it. I originally passed on Fallout 3 the first time around, but decided to give it another go when Best Buy had a $30 sale for the Game of the Year Edition which included all DLC packs and I was VERY glad that I did, because I have been pretty much addicted to the game and have been playing it non stop. I do wish they could have patched up some of the bugs though, it seems to lock up FAR too much.

This, combined with the Assassin's Creed 2 style scenario. Games are simply not given enough development time these days. It used to be that 2 years was plenty of time, but with these huge open worlds and high-res graphics, realistically a first game in a series not built on existing tech should have 3-4 years in production, and sequels 2. That's why we're seeing the "tech demo" (AC1, Mass Effect 1) as the first game, and the second game being the game they really wanted to make. They literally ran out of time on AC2 to finish those parts, so they offered them up at minimal cost that basically covered some of the extra dev time and the fees from MS/Sony ($7).

Assassins Creed 2 was another outstanding game that I purchased the DLC for because I loved the original game so much. I havent played them yet, but at $4each even if its mediocere its still more Ezio and thats enough for me.

Did you really feel that Mass Effect was the tech demo? I know many people felt that way about the first Assassins Creed, but Im currently starting the first Mass Effect. From what I gather from fans is that Mass Effect 2 is not night and day better than the first one like AC and AC2. Please elaborate on this. I forced myself to play the first AC just so I feel I would be ready for the 2nd one and at times it was frustrating.

They won't "sell you the ending". I do think that there might be more instances like Fable 2, where they break a larger game up into cheaper pieces. What EA is doing with Dragon Age, and I hope Mass Effect looks pretty positive to me. They just need to make sure that what they offer is worth what they charge. I don't want to see these games become MMORPG grindfests

As I said as long as the DLC is cheap and not mandatory then Im always going to be all for it. I never want DLC to be a requirement to get the complete experience.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Good thing you guys never lived in the LD era

Dude, I am the LD era! Personally, I have no issue with a disc swap, especially timed to an already-existing intermission. However, I just don't think it would be necessary.

First of all, none of the EEs are 4 hours long. Granted, they're not terribly far from it...

Secondly, my argument carried the caveat that extras be reserved for a second disc. If you want to withhold a bunch of bandwidth for picture-in-picture crap, that's another story.

Meanwhile, when Kingdom of Heaven, at 191 minutes, can look as good as it does on a single BD 50, in MPEG2... a modern AVC compression of a film 20 minutes longer should not really have a whole lot of trouble.

[Jeff Kleist]

Did you really feel that Mass Effect was the tech demo? I know many people felt that way about the first Assassins Creed, but Im currently starting the first Mass Effect. From what I gather from fans is that Mass Effect 2 is not night and day better than the first one like AC and AC2. Please elaborate on this. I forced myself to play the first AC just so I feel I would be ready for the 2nd one and at times it was frustrating.

ME1 didn't have a polished game interface. The second one I felt they took too much RPG out of it, but that the overall game was far superior. There's a hybrid of the two that's the best game for ME possible. The overall game is much better looking and runs much better with much greater environmental variety rather than all the prefab bases

Last night I watched The Dark Crystal on blu-ray and was so relieved that when it finished I realized I had lost the association with the laserdisc side-change memory. What a difference it made to enjoy a favorite long-loved film and just watch it... from start to finish... with no interruption and no "take me out of the movie" emotional-pull-back from my memory of when that inevitable pause used to happen.

Dark Crystal is like 90 minutes, not 4 hours. Given that 99% of movies ever made will fit on a BD-50 comfortably, including Gone with the Wind and probably Ben-Hur. Seriously, just let this one go to make sure it's a top notch presenatation.

[Jeff Kleist]

Meanwhile, when Kingdom of Heaven, at 191 minutes, can look as good as it does on a single BD 50, in MPEG2... a modern AVC compression of a film 20 minutes longer should not really have a whole lot of trouble.

KOH is carrying zero extras, no Maximum movie mode, runs an hour shorter than ROTK, and almost half an hour shorter than TTT and no dub tracks.

LOTR Ultimate is going to have PiP tracks, count on it

[Doctorossi]

Ok, yeah- if they're going to insist on putting a bunch of other crap on the disc(s), PQ would probably suffer. What's new? This doesn't really have anything to do with my argument, which is about what they are able to do, not so much what they are likely to do.

If you get to bring the relative PQ of the different DVD releases into the BD argument, I get to compare a potential EE BD release to the non-picture-in-picture EE DVD release. Deal?