What? PlayStation 3 Lacks Upscaler to 1080i? - Blu-ray Forum

Blackraven · 11-17-2006, 06:36 AM

So that means people that have native 1080i HDTV sets are doomed (at the moment)???

PlayStation 3 Lacks Upscaler to 1080i

Suddenly, the bundle at CompUSA all makes sense now

Reports are flooding in that PlayStation 3 is unable to upscale its video output, leaving many with older HDTV's, including those from Sony, out in the cold of standard definition.

Early word came in from the NeoGAF forums, where users with 1080i TV sets tried to run Resistance: Fall of Man, only to find that the game would force a switch down to 480p. The reason behind this is that Resistance runs at a native 720p resolution. If the game is played on a television that does not support 720p, which applies to many older HDTV models, then instead of upscaling to 1080i to retain its HD status, it downscales to 480p, losing much graphical fidelity.

"Sony and Insomniac, I am very, very dissapointed. Resistance will not output in 1080i. It's either 720p, or a 480p blur fest. What a pain in the ass it's going to be to change the screen resolution in the XMB everytime I want to play. Not to mention having to deal with the bad quality resulting from my CRT HDTV's crappy upscaling algorithms," wrote forum member Vincey37.

When attempting to run Resistance on a TV set not running in 720p, the following message is displayed:

"The maximum display resolution is currently set to 1080i. For highest image quality 720p is recommended. To change this setting, you must exit the application and change your Video Output Settings from the Display Settings option in the Settings menu. Press the START button to continue"

A response from a supposed Insomniac developer read, "This isn't our fault guys - we were set to support it," without going into further details.

So the situation right now is that anyone with an HDTV that's capable of only 480i, 480p, and 1080i will be unable to play games such as Resistance, NHL 2K7, Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07 and Need for Speed Carbon at anything higher than 480p.

Upscaling is currently found in many HDMI DVD players that convert 480p images to 720p or 1080i, producing slightly improved picture quality. the Xbox 360 also upscales its games (albeit with analog component output instead of HDMI), which nearly all are developed to run at 720p, to 1080i for those who are unable to run at the native resolution.

Sony has yet to comment on reports of this discovery, and it is unknown whether or not this apparent oversight can be addressed via system updates.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also here's an IGN article:

PS3 Downscales 720p on Incapable TVs
If your TV doesn't support a specific resolution, expect to go low-res.

US, November 15, 2006 - As final PlayStation 3 units continue to trickle into more and more hands, additional details about how the system works and what it can and can't do are hitting the web. The latest (rather major) tidbit is how the console treats the upscaling and downscaling of 720p titles on televisions that don't support that resolution -- specifically those that are only 1080i capable.

As it turns out, gamers who own older HD sets that feature only 480i, 480p, and 1080i resolution input capabilities will have to settle for the display quality being downsized as the game boots in its 480p mode rather than upscaling the image from its more desirable 720p mode to the TV's 1080i. We tested this development on older HDTV sets with games designed for 720p but not 1080i -- Resistance: Fall of Man, NHL 2K7, Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07, and Need for Speed Carbon. Sure enough, the system downshifted all four titles to 480p rather than moving up to 1080i. This issue came up with either a digital HD video connection (using an HDMI cord) and an analog HD video connection (using component cables.)

The PlayStation 3's competitor, Microsoft's Xbox 360, does upscale 720p games to 1080i if the HD set supports the latter resolution but not the in-between and commonly-employed 720p resolution.

IGN contacted Sony representatives for comment regarding this feature, but SCEA spokespeople have yet to return our phone calls as we went to press (we'll update this story when they do). It is not known yet if this is purely a software issue or a deeper technical problem and whether or not this lack of upscaling might be resolved on launch PS3 systems in future updates of the hardware via downloadable firmware patches.

For the laymen, 720p is a high-definition format that offers a complete 720-pixel line frame on the screen at 24 to 60 frames per second (progressive), while the 1080i signal is presented as two 540-pixel fields that when displayed back to back look like a complete image (interlaced). The difference being that a 720p picture offers quicker refresh rates while 1080i offers more detail with stationary imagery. The maximum resolution of the PlayStation 3 (and currently the maximum for available HDTV sets) is 1080p. It is thus capable of displaying all major standard-definition and high-definition video outputs wherever HD standards are employed (in PS3 games and Blu-Ray Movies, most commonly), but as has already been reported about PS1/PS2 games and DVD playback, it does not currently upscale any lower resolution images to higher image standards.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

So that means for now, that anyone with a 1080i HDTV set has no chance of getting 720p resolution on 720p PS3 games.

Goodness, I do hope that a software patch can fix this. Otherwise, any adjustments that would require a hardware fix will turn out nasty and hit Sony badly.

It looks like this won't plague the upcoming 1080p games (like the NBA games, Gran Turismo and Sonic) but without an update patch, the 1080i set owners are doomed with the initial release of PS3 games outputting at 720p.

But I raise a question: Why is Resistance only in 720p?

Hope that we get more answers (and solutions to this) ASAP.

P.S.

Sure it won't hit those with newer WXGA 720p and Full HD 1080p sets like myself and a selected few. This new hits badly on early-adopters that are using older-gen HDTVs which use the 1080i as its native resolution.

A bit of good news is that it doesn't put a strain on Blu-ray movies and probably on DVDs. This problem is for the 720p games.

shido · 11-17-2006, 07:19 AM

Resistance was dropped to 720p a few weeks back. They wouldn't have been able to finish the game on time to make the necessary changes to have allowed for 1080p without sacrificing some other effects.

Anyway, this comes as a big shock and disappointment to me. I mean, I want the PS3 and Blu-ray to succeed as much as anybody else here, but how in the hell could Sony have screwed this up? I'm fortunate, in that I have a CRT HDTV that at least accepts a 720p signal, though it is far from the ideal resolution. On my set, 1080i looks better hands down. So I'm very disappointed with this. What's worse, is if this isn't some kind of issue that can be fixed with a firmware update, things are gonna get really ugly for Sony. The last thing they need right now is a hardware recall.

WriteSimply · 11-17-2006, 10:56 AM

This is not going to break Sony. An upconversion software can be done easily so that 720p video gets upscaled to 1080p. This can be done via firmware.

The REAL problem lies with the ATSC which allowed 720p/i standard to be allowed as a standard. It's a half-assed spec designed to appease broadcasters and cable operators so that they can have more channels instead of giving people true HD video.

Note that this problem affects only games, not BD movie playback.

fuad

JTK · 11-17-2006, 01:20 PM

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't this handled the same way the 360 does it?

Say you get a game that's in 720p, but you can go into the console's dashboard and simply set to the native resolution of your display and it's all taken care of?

Isn't it that simple?

If not, then that's truly ridiculous. My CRT Tube is the XBR960 and it accepts 720p so I personally won't have any problems, but this is just downright mystifying and senseless, especially for this kind of hardware and this kind of money.

This is the last thing Sony needs: More FUD fodder and more potential disenfranchisement amongst x number of people.

shido · 11-17-2006, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTK

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't this handled the same way the 360 does it?

Say you get a game that's in 720p, but you can go into the console's dashboard and simply set to the native resolution of your display and it's all taken care of?

Isn't it that simple?

If not, then that's truly ridiculous. My CRT Tube is the XBR960 and it accepts 720p so I personally won't have any problems, but this is just downright mystifying and senseless, especially for this kind of hardware and this kind of money.

This is the last thing Sony needs: More FUD fodder and more potential disenfranchisement amongst x number of people.

Sadly, no. IGN did a test by trying to launch Resistance while the console was set to 1080i output. When the game started, it kicked back to 480p resolution (as they tested a 720p incompatible tv on purpose), giving a message that went something like "Your console is currently set to 1080i. For best visual performance, set your console to a maximum of 720p." It's absolutely ridiculous that Sony let something like this happen. They need a fix ASAP, or they're in big trouble, IMO.

GLOW · 11-17-2006, 04:09 PM

Upscaling to 1080i is such a basic feature, I cannot believe they overlooked this...

Please, Sony, get your act together. The fate of Blu-ray and the PS3 is in your hands. We can't afford any more f*ck ups.

JTK · 11-17-2006, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GLOW

Upscaling to 1080i is such a basic feature, I cannot believe they overlooked this...

Please, Sony, get your act together. The fate of Blu-ray and the PS3 is in your hands. We can't afford any more f*ck ups.

Agreed.

FWIW, they already had an update today in the form of a firmware 1.10 so they're on the ball with this thing.

theknub · 11-17-2006, 05:50 PM

wouldn't this actually be the software and not the hardware that is at fault? the hardware is only as good as the software and if the developer did this, it wouldn't be the hardware at fault. i'm sure that the hardware can easily upscale the image, but is something the developer did.

maybe a small firmware glitch that wasn't thought about, but you never know.

JTK · 11-17-2006, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theknub

wouldn't this actually be the software and not the hardware that is at fault? the hardware is only as good as the software and if the developer did this, it wouldn't be the hardware at fault. i'm sure that the hardware can easily upscale the image, but is something the developer did.

maybe a small firmware glitch that wasn't thought about, but you never know.

Firmware can easily address anything like this.

phloyd · 11-17-2006, 06:49 PM

I imagine that some level of hardware would be need to do this kind of thing.

It will be interesting to see whether it can be handled with a firmware upgrade.

It certainly seems like somewhat of an oversight, though I imagine that the percentage of people affected is not huge.

dobyblue · 11-17-2006, 07:00 PM

In the test though they were using a set with no 720p input.
If your set has 720p and 1080i (or 1080p) then you can set the output to 1080i or 1080p if you have it, as long as you also support 720p.
It's only when the unit doesn't get a 720p handshake to begin with that it gives you that error and goes down to 480p.
Basically only very early HDTV adapters will be affected by this, like tvs bought before 2002 and CRT HD units, as most CRTs don't have 720p.

My friend got one after waiting in line since Wednesday 2pm. I'm going to play PS3 for the first time in 1 hour!

Yes!!!!!!

(Oh and for the record, everyone in the line-up, as I subbed in for four hours on Wednesday night, is now completely excitied about Blu-ray too; word of mouth people, it kicks ass.)

theknub · 11-17-2006, 07:08 PM

right, it is a weird situation i don't think they considered when programming. my initial reaction is a firmware upgrade for this situation would fix it

JTK · 11-17-2006, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobyblue

(Oh and for the record, everyone in the line-up, as I subbed in for four hours on Wednesday night, is now completely excitied about Blu-ray too; word of mouth people, it kicks ass.)

We'll be seeing a lot more of that as people get exposed to BD via the Tallgaeda Nights pack in.

dobyblue · 11-17-2006, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTK

We'll be seeing a lot more of that as people get exposed to BD via the Tallgaeda Nights pack in.

I opened my buddy's one to look at it - there is a Blu-ray leaflet inside it too.
I turned it over at showed it to them, proclaiming "this is 50GB"

We'll check it out on Sunday. Tonight I'm celebrating gf's 27th birthday, have to be careful not to let Blu-ray/PS3 excitement overshadow it.

It's good to be Blu

JTK · 11-17-2006, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I opened my buddy's one to look at it - there is a Blu-ray leaflet inside it too.
I turned it over at showed it to them, proclaiming "this is 50GB"

We'll check it out on Sunday. Tonight I'm celebrating gf's 27th birthday, have to be careful not to let Blu-ray/PS3 excitement overshadow it.

It's good to be Blu

Yup!

It was a very nice little packet basically advertising Blu-Ray, offering a nice rebate on some BD discs, and putting it out there for all it's worth.

Having a good looking disc of a popular movie that most people will enjoy at least once is a nice touch.

I don't really think Sony could have done much better on this front unless they had found a way to pack in Pirates of the Caribbean 2 or some other marquee title like that, which I wish they would have done just to go over the top.

shido · 11-18-2006, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobyblue

In the test though they were using a set with no 720p input.

That was kinda the point. If you don't have 720p, then you can't play in HD, regardless if you have 1080i. Imagine that disappointment after waiting a day or two in line for a PS3. The number of people who still have these old sets are probably small, though it is still pretty stupid of Sony regardless.

ay221 · 11-18-2006, 03:41 AM

My Sony 32" CRT takes in 720p and 1080i. My projector is 720p only. So I am in good shape.

Kenshiro · 11-19-2006, 02:55 AM

We are talking about a very small percentage of people here with these early HDTVs. I add this to FUD list of things people complain about that doesn't affect anyone they know.

720p is a broadcasting STANDARD ask FOX, ESPN, and ABC; if your tv doesn't support it, then there is more you're missing out on besides certain PS3 games and its time to upgrade.

Jazar · 11-19-2006, 03:07 AM

What's really crazy is that the PS3 won't output 720p for BD movies only 1080i and 1080p.

shido · 11-19-2006, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazar

What's really crazy is that the PS3 won't output 720p for BD movies only 1080i and 1080p.

Ouch. So much for the PS3 being a good Blu-ray player. Sony better fix this fast.

11-17-2006, 06:36 AM	#1
Blackraven Expert Member Member since:Jan 2005 Location:Makati, Philippines	What? PlayStation 3 Lacks Upscaler to 1080i? So that means people that have native 1080i HDTV sets are doomed (at the moment)??? PlayStation 3 Lacks Upscaler to 1080i Suddenly, the bundle at CompUSA all makes sense now Reports are flooding in that PlayStation 3 is unable to upscale its video output, leaving many with older HDTV's, including those from Sony, out in the cold of standard definition. Early word came in from the NeoGAF forums, where users with 1080i TV sets tried to run Resistance: Fall of Man, only to find that the game would force a switch down to 480p. The reason behind this is that Resistance runs at a native 720p resolution. If the game is played on a television that does not support 720p, which applies to many older HDTV models, then instead of upscaling to 1080i to retain its HD status, it downscales to 480p, losing much graphical fidelity. "Sony and Insomniac, I am very, very dissapointed. Resistance will not output in 1080i. It's either 720p, or a 480p blur fest. What a pain in the ass it's going to be to change the screen resolution in the XMB everytime I want to play. Not to mention having to deal with the bad quality resulting from my CRT HDTV's crappy upscaling algorithms," wrote forum member Vincey37. When attempting to run Resistance on a TV set not running in 720p, the following message is displayed: "The maximum display resolution is currently set to 1080i. For highest image quality 720p is recommended. To change this setting, you must exit the application and change your Video Output Settings from the Display Settings option in the Settings menu. Press the START button to continue" A response from a supposed Insomniac developer read, "This isn't our fault guys - we were set to support it," without going into further details. So the situation right now is that anyone with an HDTV that's capable of only 480i, 480p, and 1080i will be unable to play games such as Resistance, NHL 2K7, Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07 and Need for Speed Carbon at anything higher than 480p. Upscaling is currently found in many HDMI DVD players that convert 480p images to 720p or 1080i, producing slightly improved picture quality. the Xbox 360 also upscales its games (albeit with analog component output instead of HDMI), which nearly all are developed to run at 720p, to 1080i for those who are unable to run at the native resolution. Sony has yet to comment on reports of this discovery, and it is unknown whether or not this apparent oversight can be addressed via system updates. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also here's an IGN article: PS3 Downscales 720p on Incapable TVs If your TV doesn't support a specific resolution, expect to go low-res. US, November 15, 2006 - As final PlayStation 3 units continue to trickle into more and more hands, additional details about how the system works and what it can and can't do are hitting the web. The latest (rather major) tidbit is how the console treats the upscaling and downscaling of 720p titles on televisions that don't support that resolution -- specifically those that are only 1080i capable. As it turns out, gamers who own older HD sets that feature only 480i, 480p, and 1080i resolution input capabilities will have to settle for the display quality being downsized as the game boots in its 480p mode rather than upscaling the image from its more desirable 720p mode to the TV's 1080i. We tested this development on older HDTV sets with games designed for 720p but not 1080i -- Resistance: Fall of Man, NHL 2K7, Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07, and Need for Speed Carbon. Sure enough, the system downshifted all four titles to 480p rather than moving up to 1080i. This issue came up with either a digital HD video connection (using an HDMI cord) and an analog HD video connection (using component cables.) The PlayStation 3's competitor, Microsoft's Xbox 360, does upscale 720p games to 1080i if the HD set supports the latter resolution but not the in-between and commonly-employed 720p resolution. IGN contacted Sony representatives for comment regarding this feature, but SCEA spokespeople have yet to return our phone calls as we went to press (we'll update this story when they do). It is not known yet if this is purely a software issue or a deeper technical problem and whether or not this lack of upscaling might be resolved on launch PS3 systems in future updates of the hardware via downloadable firmware patches. For the laymen, 720p is a high-definition format that offers a complete 720-pixel line frame on the screen at 24 to 60 frames per second (progressive), while the 1080i signal is presented as two 540-pixel fields that when displayed back to back look like a complete image (interlaced). The difference being that a 720p picture offers quicker refresh rates while 1080i offers more detail with stationary imagery. The maximum resolution of the PlayStation 3 (and currently the maximum for available HDTV sets) is 1080p. It is thus capable of displaying all major standard-definition and high-definition video outputs wherever HD standards are employed (in PS3 games and Blu-Ray Movies, most commonly), but as has already been reported about PS1/PS2 games and DVD playback, it does not currently upscale any lower resolution images to higher image standards. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ So that means for now, that anyone with a 1080i HDTV set has no chance of getting 720p resolution on 720p PS3 games. Goodness, I do hope that a software patch can fix this. Otherwise, any adjustments that would require a hardware fix will turn out nasty and hit Sony badly. It looks like this won't plague the upcoming 1080p games (like the NBA games, Gran Turismo and Sonic) but without an update patch, the 1080i set owners are doomed with the initial release of PS3 games outputting at 720p. But I raise a question: Why is Resistance only in 720p? Hope that we get more answers (and solutions to this) ASAP. P.S. Sure it won't hit those with newer WXGA 720p and Full HD 1080p sets like myself and a selected few. This new hits badly on early-adopters that are using older-gen HDTVs which use the 1080i as its native resolution. A bit of good news is that it doesn't put a strain on Blu-ray movies and probably on DVDs. This problem is for the 720p games. Last edited by Blackraven; 11-17-2006 at 07:00 AM.

11-17-2006, 10:56 AM	#3
WriteSimply Blu-ray Ninja Member since:Sep 2006 Location:Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia	This is not going to break Sony. An upconversion software can be done easily so that 720p video gets upscaled to 1080p. This can be done via firmware. The REAL problem lies with the ATSC which allowed 720p/i standard to be allowed as a standard. It's a half-assed spec designed to appease broadcasters and cable operators so that they can have more channels instead of giving people true HD video. Note that this problem affects only games, not BD movie playback. fuad Last edited by WriteSimply; 11-17-2006 at 10:58 AM.

11-17-2006, 01:20 PM	#4
JTK Blu-ray Knight Member since:Jan 2006 Location:www.blurayoasis.com	Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't this handled the same way the 360 does it? Say you get a game that's in 720p, but you can go into the console's dashboard and simply set to the native resolution of your display and it's all taken care of? Isn't it that simple? If not, then that's truly ridiculous. My CRT Tube is the XBR960 and it accepts 720p so I personally won't have any problems, but this is just downright mystifying and senseless, especially for this kind of hardware and this kind of money. This is the last thing Sony needs: More FUD fodder and more potential disenfranchisement amongst x number of people. Last edited by JTK; 11-17-2006 at 01:23 PM.

11-17-2006, 07:00 PM	#11
dobyblue Super Moderator Top contributor Member since:Jul 2006 Location:Ontario, Canada Home Theater Gallery:71 4K collection:55 Blu-ray collection:655 Blu-ray reviews: 15	In the test though they were using a set with no 720p input. If your set has 720p and 1080i (or 1080p) then you can set the output to 1080i or 1080p if you have it, as long as you also support 720p. It's only when the unit doesn't get a 720p handshake to begin with that it gives you that error and goes down to 480p. Basically only very early HDTV adapters will be affected by this, like tvs bought before 2002 and CRT HD units, as most CRTs don't have 720p. My friend got one after waiting in line since Wednesday 2pm. I'm going to play PS3 for the first time in 1 hour! Yes!!!!!! (Oh and for the record, everyone in the line-up, as I subbed in for four hours on Wednesday night, is now completely excitied about Blu-ray too; word of mouth people, it kicks ass.) Last edited by dobyblue; 11-17-2006 at 07:02 PM.

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11-17-2006, 07:19 AM	#2
shido Active Member Member since:Aug 2006	Resistance was dropped to 720p a few weeks back. They wouldn't have been able to finish the game on time to make the necessary changes to have allowed for 1080p without sacrificing some other effects. Anyway, this comes as a big shock and disappointment to me. I mean, I want the PS3 and Blu-ray to succeed as much as anybody else here, but how in the hell could Sony have screwed this up? I'm fortunate, in that I have a CRT HDTV that at least accepts a 720p signal, though it is far from the ideal resolution. On my set, 1080i looks better hands down. So I'm very disappointed with this. What's worse, is if this isn't some kind of issue that can be fixed with a firmware update, things are gonna get really ugly for Sony. The last thing they need right now is a hardware recall.

11-17-2006, 04:09 PM	#6
GLOW Member Member since:Oct 2006 4K collection:- Blu-ray collection:-	Upscaling to 1080i is such a basic feature, I cannot believe they overlooked this... Please, Sony, get your act together. The fate of Blu-ray and the PS3 is in your hands. We can't afford any more f*ck ups.

11-17-2006, 05:50 PM	#8
theknub Blu-ray Guru Member since:May 2006	wouldn't this actually be the software and not the hardware that is at fault? the hardware is only as good as the software and if the developer did this, it wouldn't be the hardware at fault. i'm sure that the hardware can easily upscale the image, but is something the developer did. maybe a small firmware glitch that wasn't thought about, but you never know.

11-17-2006, 06:49 PM	#10
phloyd Blu-ray Guru Member since:Dec 2003 Location:California Trading Score:5	I imagine that some level of hardware would be need to do this kind of thing. It will be interesting to see whether it can be handled with a firmware upgrade. It certainly seems like somewhat of an oversight, though I imagine that the percentage of people affected is not huge.

11-17-2006, 07:08 PM	#12
theknub Blu-ray Guru Member since:May 2006	right, it is a weird situation i don't think they considered when programming. my initial reaction is a firmware upgrade for this situation would fix it

11-18-2006, 03:41 AM	#17
ay221 Special Member Member since:Oct 2006	My Sony 32" CRT takes in 720p and 1080i. My projector is 720p only. So I am in good shape.

11-19-2006, 02:55 AM	#18
Kenshiro Active Member Top contributor Member since:Sep 2006 Location:Ft Lauderdale, FL Home Theater Gallery:34 Blu-ray collection:62 DVD collection:10	We are talking about a very small percentage of people here with these early HDTVs. I add this to FUD list of things people complain about that doesn't affect anyone they know. 720p is a broadcasting STANDARD ask FOX, ESPN, and ABC; if your tv doesn't support it, then there is more you're missing out on besides certain PS3 games and its time to upgrade.

11-19-2006, 03:07 AM	#19
Jazar Active Member Member since:Jun 2006	What's really crazy is that the PS3 won't output 720p for BD movies only 1080i and 1080p.

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