81:19 Nielsen/VideoScan Weekly Sales Numbers

[Flux88MPH]

Originally Posted by owa

They supposedly get enough of a sample to make it statistically valid. That's also why they don't need to put a box in everyone's home to come up with the TV ratings.

Here are the facts.
1. Nielsen is a marketing firm.
2. Nielsen only monitors companies with paid subscriptions who in turn use this for marketing and ad directives.
3. Nielsen is paid by companies to handle product placement.

What I'm trying to say is, pay more attention to the hard numbers that Sony and the 3rd party player companies provide. Don't rely on numbers that a marketing survey company provides when you want to base a decision or comment on fact or actual sales.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Flux88MPH

Here are the facts.
1. Nielsen is a marketing firm.
2. Nielsen only monitors companies with paid subscriptions who in turn use this for marketing and ad directives.
3. Nielsen is paid by companies to handle product placement.

What I'm trying to say is, pay more attention to the hard numbers that Sony and the 3rd party player companies provide. Don't rely on numbers that a marketing survey company provides when you want to base a decision or comment on fact or actual sales.

You still don't get it. All of the 'hard numbers' are N/VS, regardless of who releases the information. The only number which doesn't jive with N/VS is Transformers, and no, I can't go into why they don't match. Every other studio announcement uses N/VS for their press releases when talking about units sold to consumers.

[Flux88MPH]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

VideoScan doesn't include WM in their sales data. I can assure you that Nielsen projections are exactly that. Projected sales for 100% of the market, which is why Nielsen/VideoScan numbers are used rather than just VideoScan.

I really don't want to go into how they manipulate the data and which sources of information are used to do it, but trust me, N/VS are the most comprehensive numbers available to track North American home video sales. They have been good enough for years where DVD is concerned and now that some HD DVD losers are complaining suddenly they aren't. So which side do you fall on, I think I know.

Max, if you are implying that I “side” with the HD-DVD camp then you are incorrect. I have no interest in purchasing a format with space limitations, lower numerical aperture, lower transfer rate, and lower bit rate. So let’s just get that out of the way right now.

Making accusations about my stance because I am informing those with questions that Nielsen is not an accurate portrayal of the US consumer is not necessary. You also stated above that “they manipulate the data” and that they are “projections”. This is also all I have been saying but with a little added info explaining that Nielsen is a marketing company.

Saying that a company that uses “projections” and that “manipulates data” is providing comprehensive numbers is just inaccurate and people need to know this. Going off of hard numbers that the Blu-ray player manufactures and Blu-ray supporting studios provide is the only way to know the true numbers. They track this through actual purchases from distribution. All I’m saying is look for the data from the horse’s mouth and not a marketing company.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Flux88MPH

Max, if you are implying that I “side” with the HD-DVD camp then you are incorrect. I have no interest in purchasing a format with space limitations, lower numerical aperture, lower transfer rate, and lower bit rate. So let’s just get that out of the way right now.

Making accusations about my stance because I am informing those with questions that Nielsen is not an accurate portrayal of the US consumer is not necessary. You also stated above that “they manipulate the data” and that they are “projections”. This is also all I have been saying but with a little added info explaining that Nielsen is a marketing company.

Saying that a company that uses “projections” and that “manipulates data” is providing comprehensive numbers is just inaccurate and people need to know this. Going off of hard numbers that the Blu-ray player manufactures and Blu-ray supporting studios provide is the only way to know the true numbers. They track this through actual purchases from distribution. All I’m saying is look for the data from the horse’s mouth and not a marketing company.

The fact that N/VS have been providing damn-near perfect data for nearly 10 years for DVD obviously means nothing.

The problem is that VS only cover about 55-65% of the markert every week with their POS data. That information is basically useless, until the studio can see that they have data which covers 100% of sell-through they will not use it. N/VS cover 100% of the martket, I can't go into their methods in much detail, but what they do works and their numbers always match our own measures and data pretty well. Don't forget my company pays a lot of money for N/VS and GfK figures and we wouldn't do it if it wasn't worth it.

[AVBill]

Nielson also lacks the bias of Paramount/Sony/etc (and only counts sell-through numbers). As far as I can tell the Nielson Videoscan numbers are as objectively good as it gets for our little HD war. If you are against the Nielson numbers, I suspect you are reading the wrong thread.

[Flux88MPH]

Originally Posted by Flux88MPH

I used to be involved in marketing and merchandising for Suncoast, Musicland, Sam Goody, FYE/Camelot, and CD Warehouse stores. Only specific markets were plugged in to the Nielsen database leaving many markets to not be included. Just like any poll or survey of information, the data collected is only specific to it's origin and not associated with a comprehensive hard number.

Just like Nielsen’s TV ratings boxes, they only capture “some” of the data. My comments in the last posting were an analogy.

On another note…I now work in the corporate and private sector for Dell Computers and get to meet with Sony on a regular basis. Dell is a full on Blu-ray supporter/adopter and I am involved with our 3rd party offerings. I just got to DEMO the Sony BDP-S300 and must say that I am completely impressed with this machine.

Max, being from the US and working in the Tech industry I have this knowledge. My wife also works in Hollywood and has direct knowledge of how Nielsen operates. I'm not sure why you believe you know something we don't and are acting like it's a big secret that you can't talk about. It is what it is...marketing survey data, nothing more and nothing less.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Flux88MPH

Max, being from the US and working in the Tech industry I have this knowledge. My wife also works in Hollywood and has direct knowledge of how Nielsen operates. I'm not sure why you believe you know something we don't and are acting like it's a big secret that you can't talk about. It is what it is...marketing survey data, nothing more and nothing less.

Unfortunately I have signed NDAs to prevent me from talking directly about methods used by Nielsen for their projections but I will say that they are far more than a marketing company. They measure the market and sell the data for a very high premium.

DVD and HDM sales do not use marketing survey data in their projections. Other methods are employed.

[The Shrike]

Originally Posted by Flux88MPH

Max, being from the US and working in the Tech industry I have this knowledge. My wife also works in Hollywood and has direct knowledge of how Nielsen operates. I'm not sure why you believe you know something we don't and are acting like it's a big secret that you can't talk about. It is what it is...marketing survey data, nothing more and nothing less.

Max you are also forgetting that Flux88MPH is a statistical genius, who intimately understands the ins and outs of consumer buying patterns. Have you not heard of the Mighty Flux88MPH? What about the huge bidding war He ignited between every major think tank in the world, all vying for His inifinite wisdom?? Flux88MPH, I humbly aplogize for Max. This mere mortal had no idea who he was talking to. If only you would forgive us, o Lord.

[Flux88MPH]

Originally Posted by AVBill

Nielson also lacks the bias of Paramount/Sony/etc (and only counts sell-through numbers). As far as I can tell the Nielson Videoscan numbers are as objectively good as it gets for our little HD war. If you are against the Nielson numbers, I suspect you are reading the wrong thread.

I'm not anti-Nielsen just stating that they monopolize this area of survey. Stating that they are unbiased and completely objective is a stretch since they are all in all still a business that gets paid by the very same companies you say they are “unbiased” to. Is it the best option we have in the world of HD format coverage? Probably so. Do they capture major trends through certain retailers? Yes. Is it completely comprehensive? No. Do they capture overall US consumer data? NO.

I am just spreading my knowledge of how it works to those who have posted question on the specific topic. I didn’t post this information to be questioned about my stance on the formats or argue with those who live by Nielsen as the bible. It was only a matter-of-fact style post to share information.

[Flux88MPH]

Originally Posted by The Shrike

Max you are also forgetting that Flux88MPH is a statistical genius, who intimately understands the ins and outs of consumer buying patterns. Have you not heard of the Mighty Flux88MPH? What about the huge bidding war He ignited between every major think tank in the world, all vying for His inifinite wisdom?? Flux88MPH, I humbly aplogize for Max. This mere mortal had no idea who he was talking to. If only you would forgive us, o Lord.

Shrike thanks for adding insult and ignorance to this page in the thread. It has been lacking the touch of a 14 year old with nothing to bring to the table. Thanks for changing this.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Flux88MPH

I'm not anti-Nielsen just stating that they monopolize this area of survey. Stating that they are unbiased and completely objective is a stretch since they are all in all still a business that gets paid by the very same companies you say they are “unbiased” to. Is it the best option we have in the world of HD format coverage? Probably so. Do they capture major trends through certain retailers? Yes. Is it completely comprehensive? No. Do they capture overall US consumer data? NO.

Niesen have to unbiased, their business model would fall apart if they were found to be favouring something. I could give you a cast-iron gaurantee that Nielsen are unbiased. In fact they recently got into trouble because of their integrity...

The fact that they get paid by everybody and not just one studio should be enough to show that they are unbiased. Would you pay for information you knew was institutionally biased against you?

[The Shrike]

Originally Posted by Flux88MPH

I am just spreading my knowledge of how it works to those who have posted question on the specific topic. I didn’t post this information to be questioned about my stance on the formats or argue with those who live by Nielsen as the bible. It was only a matter-of-fact style post to share information.

Bless you, Lord! Bless you! Flux88MPH be praised!

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Flux88MPH

My wife also works in Hollywood and has direct knowledge of how Nielsen operates.

On a side note, your wife must have one hell of a commute. Austin to LA everyday...

[The Shrike]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

On a side note, your wife must have one hell of a commute. Austin to LA everyday...

Figuratively. She works in Hollywood figuratively. Much like God "works" in Heaven. But we all know He's here, on earth, typing to us as Flux88MPH! His words are typed on DIAMOND keys on a GOLDEN FLEECE computer, and sent to us on the wings of a Phoenix!

[Flux88MPH]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Niesen have to unbiased, their business model would fall apart if they were found to be favouring something. I could give you a cast-iron gaurantee that Nielsen are unbiased. In fact they recently got into trouble because of their integrity...

The fact that they get paid by everybody and not just one studio should be enough to show that they are unbiased. Would you pay for information you knew was institutionally biased against you?

This would be to say that the Blackstone Group, Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co, and the Carlyle Group have no agendas or bias.

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There is some public critique regarding accuracy and potential bias within Nielsen's rating system. In June of 2006, however, Nielsen announced a sweeping plan to revamp its entire methodology to include all types of media viewing in its sample.

Since viewers are aware of being part of the Nielsen sample, it can lead to bias in recording and viewing habits. This criticism is common to any and all survey research. Audience counts gathered by the self-reporting diary methodology are sometimes higher than those gathered by the electronic meters, which provide less opportunity for response bias. This trend seems to be more common for news programming and popular prime time programming. Also, daytime viewing and late night viewing tend to be under-reported by the diary

Another criticism of the measuring system itself is that it fails the most important criteria of a sample: it is not random in the statistical sense of the word. Only a small fraction of the population is selected and only those that actually accept are used as the sample size. Compounding matters is the fact that of the sample data that is collected advertisers will not pay for time shifted (recorded for replay at a different time) programs [4] rendering the 'raw' numbers useless. In many local areas, the difference between a rating that keeps a show on the air and one that will cancel it is so small as to be statistically insignificant, and yet the show that just happens to get the higher rating will survive.[5]

In 2004, News Corporation retained the services of public relations firm Glover Park to launch a campaign aimed at delaying Nielsen's plan to replace its aging household electronic data collection methodology in larger local markets with its newer and more accurate electronic People Meter system. The advocates in the public relations campaign charged that data derived from the newer People Meter system represented a bias toward underreporting minority viewing, which could lead to a de-facto discrimination in employment against minority actors and writers. Nielsen countered the campaign by revealing its sample composition counts. According to Nielsen Media Research's sample composition counts, as of November 2004, nationwide, African American Households using People Meters represented 6.7% of the Nielsen sample, compared to 6.0% in the general population. Latino Households represent 5.7% of the Nielsen sample, compared to 5.0% in the general population. This showed that ethnic minorities were actually overrepresented in the sample, contrary to what was charged in the News Corporation's public relations campaign.[citation needed]

Another criticism of the Nielsen ratings system is its lack of a system for measuring television audiences in environments outside the home, such as college dormitories (to which Nielsen has started a program in 2005), transport terminals, bars, and other public places where television is frequently viewed, often by large numbers of people in a common setting. Recently, however, Nielsen has announced plans to incorporate viewing by away-from-home college students into its sample. Current measurement devices offered by all media measurement companies in these scenarios are challenged in determining whether an audience member was just in general proximity to a television signal, or whether they were actually paying attention to the programming.[citation needed] Internet TV viewing is another rapidly growing market for which Nielsen Ratings fail to account for viewer impact. Apple iTunes, atomfilms, YouTube, and some of the networks' own websites (eg: ABC.com, CBS.com) provide full-length web-based programming, either subscription-based or ad-supported.

Furthermore, a new problem has developed, especially with the February sweeps. For the 2001-2002 season, the National Football League moved Super Bowl XXXVI to February, when it was placed in the sweeps period, because of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, which postponed the NFL schedule a week. Because of that, starting with the 2003-04 season, the NFL moved the Super Bowl into the sweeps period.

Since the move of the Super Bowl into the sweeps period, Sunday nights in the sweeps period in February is almost guaranteed to be a winner for the network holding the big event on each of the four Sundays -- the Super Bowl (alternates among NBC, CBS, Fox), Grammy Awards (moved to Sundays since 2003 except during Olympics, CBS), Daytona 500 (finish moved into prime-time in 2007; some believe that in the future, most of the race will take place in prime-time, Fox), or Academy Awards (moved into the sweeps period in 2004, ABC), and every fourth year the Winter Olympics (next telecast 2010, NBC).

With the conclusion of the 2001 Major League baseball season pushed back a week (since a full week of games was postponed following the September 11th attacks and were made-up), the final three games of the 2001 World Series were pushed back into the November, 2001 sweeps. If the 2007 World Series had gone the full seven games, the deciding contest would have been played on Thursday evening, November 1st, the first night of the sweeps. Some believe that Major League Baseball could eventually push most or all of the World Series into the November sweeps, further concentrating "big event" television into sweeps periods.

[The Shrike]

Originally Posted by Flux88MPH

Shrike thanks for adding insult and ignorance to this page in the thread. It has been lacking the touch of a 14 year old with nothing to bring to the table. Thanks for changing this.

He addressed me! He addressed me! If only I could pluck mine eyes from mine head, so that the image of His Majestical Genius using my lowly name in his Heavenly Postings could be the final image I see before I leave this mortal coil! A LIFETIME OF SERVICE O LORD!

[The Shrike]

So many words! Everyone! Gather 'round, and witness the powers of Flux88MPH! Using nothing but a sophomore college student's thesis paper (I mean, Wikipedia), He has taken television ratings, and magically made it relevent to Blu-Ray discussion! Truly, His mind is infinite!

[sj001]

Originally Posted by The Shrike

He addressed me! He addressed me! If only I could pluck mine eyes from mine head, so that the image of His Majestical Genius using my lowly name in his Heavenly Postings could be the final image I see before I leave this mortal coil! A LIFETIME OF SERVICE O LORD!

Too funny! LOL!

[WickyWoo]

And again Flux, you are talking about the TV ratings, and not the DVD ratings, which are 2 entirely seperate divisions, and 2 entriely different methodologies

[Titan]

Originally Posted by Flux88MPH

This would be to say that the Blackstone Group, Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co, and the Carlyle Group have no agendas or bias.

That report was way too long to read the whole thing, but scanning through it that was all about television ratings, not dvd numbers. Two different things.

Edit: You beat me to it Wicky