Ask questions to The Digital Bits team (Bill Hunt, Jeff Kleist et.al.)

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

I have no idea what Valve is up to, I'm not a fan.



If you think a single inch of GI isn't bought and paid for, either with cash or a nice backroom deal for gamestop....

Everyone knows that considering that the magazine is given free with an Edge card membership. They do have good exclusive cover stories from time to time. They had a nice article of the id software game Rage last year.

What have you got against Valve? The only thing that annoys me about them is their constant PS3 bashing when games like Killzone 2 and God of War 3 prove that the PS3 is capable of doing anything that the 360 can do if not better. Maybe even WAY better.

[Jeff Kleist]

What have you got against Valve? The only thing that annoys me about them is their constant PS3 bashing when games like Killzone 2 and God of War 3 prove that the PS3 is capable of doing anything that the 360 can do if not better. Maybe even WAY better.

Their games bore me. Portal was only good because it was short, new, and something they bought

The PS3 and 360 are essentially equal in terms of power, the 360 is easier to program for thanks to a better toolset, having 3 "big brother" processors instead of 8 little buddies, and a faster GPU and a unified RAM structure. This has come from many many different designers I talk to, and the person who designed both CPUs's book. The Cell is not designed as a game processor, it was designed to be a catch all for everything from servers to microwaves. The ability to stack 1,2,8,12, whatever additional cores on. This works great in a media box, where you're doing a lot of little tasks at once. Games are about big chunky tasks, and I think you'll see one of the problems before the end of the year (no I will not explain further at this time)

Again, this is not ragging, this is simply how it is. A lot of people see all those cores and go nuts without thinking about how difficult it really is to get so many processors cooperating, and how it might take 2 or 3 5 year olds to do what 1 12 year old can (relative sizes of the processors)

Read the book, it's fascinating and you can get it used for about $6

http://www.amazon.com/Race-New-Game-.../dp/0806531010

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/945/945818p1.html

Here's Carmack (this was awhile ago BTW, but it basically still holds up. There are better tools now)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PFUw29U4J8

But when asked the flame war inducing question, "which console is actually more powerful?"

Shippy tells Gamasutra, "I'm going to have to answer with an 'it depends.' Again, they're completely different models. So in the PS3, you've got this Cell chip which has massive parallel processing power, the PowerPC core, multiple SPU cores… it's got a GPU that is, in the model here, processing more in the Cell chip and less in the GPU. So that's one processing paradigm -- a heterogeneous paradigm."

"With the Xbox 360, you've got more of a traditional multi-core system, and you've got three PowerPC cores, each of them having dual threads -- so you've got six threads running there, at least in the CPU. Six threads in Xbox 360, and eight or nine threads in the PS3 -- but then you've got to factor in the GPU," Shippy explains. "The GPU is highly sophisticated in the Xbox 360."

"At the end of the day, when you put them all together, depending on the software, I think they're pretty equal."

[cjamescook]

Originally Posted by FourToedStatue

Hey Jeff I know Looney tunes on blu are a ways off but when they do hit Do you think they will be Golden Collection ports or their own unique blu ray releases?

I have the original laser disc box collection releases. Each box consisted of five discs totaling 70 cartoons. Some of the older material was B&W or two-strip technicolor.

I wonder if they will re-release this material. Or is the laser disc release unique, not to be repeated, and therefore not to be discarded by true fans.

[Uxi]

Which fits. A shame they gimped on the RAM. Double the RAM would really let the PS3 stretch it's legs over the 360 but given how much red they were bleeding, it obviously wasn't feasible. The PS3 is a far better media hub, even before the gimped later SKU came out (I still long for the demo unit showed at E3 2005 with the gigabit switch and USB ports in the rear - VERY handy for an external USB drive without the ugly cable/dongle sticking out of the front).

Sounds like the PS3 would do MMO and the like. I am curious if the 360 could handle MAG's 256 players. The biggest shame wrt games is that Japanese developers have concentrated on the PSP more than the PS3 (Macross Ace/Ultimate Frontier, I'm looking at you!).

I really wish Sony would revisit the PS-X concept and put a PS3 in a more conventional rectangular shell with a front LCD display and 3.5" HDD and give it Coax and RCA inputs (if not HDMI).

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Their games bore me. Portal was only good because it was short, new, and something they bought

The PS3 and 360 are essentially equal in terms of power, the 360 is easier to program for thanks to a better toolset, having 3 "big brother" processors instead of 8 little buddies, and a faster GPU and a unified RAM structure. This has come from many many different designers I talk to, and the person who designed both CPUs's book. The Cell is not designed as a game processor, it was designed to be a catch all for everything from servers to microwaves. The ability to stack 1,2,8,12, whatever additional cores on. This works great in a media box, where you're doing a lot of little tasks at once. Games are about big chunky tasks, and I think you'll see one of the problems before the end of the year (no I will not explain further at this time)

Again, this is not ragging, this is simply how it is. A lot of people see all those cores and go nuts without thinking about how difficult it really is to get so many processors cooperating, and how it might take 2 or 3 5 year olds to do what 1 12 year old can (relative sizes of the processors)

Read the book, it's fascinating and you can get it used for about $6

http://www.amazon.com/Race-New-Game-.../dp/0806531010

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/945/945818p1.html

Here's Carmack (this was awhile ago BTW, but it basically still holds up. There are better tools now)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PFUw29U4J8

I do feel that because of games being stored on bluray gives the PS3 the ultimate advantage.

[Jeff Kleist]

Which fits. A shame they gimped on the RAM. Double the RAM would really let the PS3 stretch it's legs over the 360 but given how much red they were bleeding, it obviously wasn't feasible. The PS3 is a far better media hub, even before the gimped later SKU came out (I still long for the demo unit showed at E3 2005 with the gigabit switch and USB ports in the rear - VERY handy for an external USB drive without the ugly cable/dongle sticking out of the front).

The RAM isn't the problem. It's the overreliance on the helper cores to do heavy lifting in the processor design. They designed a swiss army knife (that could go in microwaves, TVs, game systems, players etc) instead of a boning knife. This had the potential to save Sony a ton of money, moving all their products to a unified processor and code base. The PS3 didn't even have a GPU until very late in the game, they were figuring they could use the helper cores for it (which is a big part of the problem, they had to use an off the shelf solution rather than a customized one)

Sounds like the PS3 would do MMO and the like. I am curious if the 360 could handle MAG's 256 players. The biggest shame wrt games is that Japanese developers have concentrated on the PSP more than the PS3 (Macross Ace/Ultimate Frontier, I'm looking at you!).

With dedicated servers like MAG has, sure. MAG doesn't really offer 256 players because they're not all operating in the same space. And you wouldn't want them to, because it'd be chaos and horribly unfun because you'd just keep dying and dying and dying from the hail of gunfire. Essentially MAG is a bunch of games of Battlefield that tie together their results to detemine the winner, and while I haven't tried it yet, it's definately something that I want to check out

And Japanese developers concentrated on the PSP because a lot more people have them. Uptake of this generation of systems has not been very good in Japan compared to the rest of the world. The games are also far cheaper to develop

I really wish Sony would revisit the PS-X concept and put a PS3 in a more conventional rectangular shell with a front LCD display and 3.5" HDD and give it Coax and RCA inputs (if not HDMI).

The PlayTV gives a lot of the features, I hope the PTV2 supports ATSC tuning and HD DVRing

[MerrickG]

I love my 360, but my concern is that the use of DVD is going to prevent it from reaching its true potential. Sure you can have multiple dvds but John Carmack had gone on record a few times saying that fitting Rage on two dvds would be very tough and that 3 dvds wouldnt be feasible.


HOWEVER, I do feel that 360 saturation is at a point where MS could allow a game to run with a mandatory hard drive. Previously MS forced developers to make the game run on systems without the hard drive. Example, Mass Effect 2. It had two discs. I installed both to the hard drive (250GB), but I still had to switch discs at parts of the game where a disc swap would have taken place. I have NO problem with them forcing you to keep the disc in the drive when playing, which they do for obvious reasons. On two (or more) disc games I would prefer they only require the main disc be present instead of disc swapping eventhough all of the data is already on the HD.

I will agree with Jeff that the 360 is probably easier to program for and many of the games support that statement since the 360 version of certain games is clearly superior. (ex. Bayonetta, Fallout 3, Ghostbusters) These days the games on both systems are for all intents and purposes equal between the two so that statement doesn't hold as much water as it used to.

Nevertheless I do feel that the exclusives on the PS3 are better than the exclusives on the 360. However, the Mass Effect series might be the best of all exclusive series. I'm torn between this and the Uncharted series.

[Jeff Kleist]

HOWEVER, I do feel that 360 saturation is at a point where MS could allow a game to run with a mandatory hard drive.

Look at how Sony has shied away from mandatory installs despite the mandatory HD. Given the relatively slow speed of the Blu-ray drive compared to the 16x DVD drive, this means that a lot of the Blu-ray is being used for redundant data to reduce access times. All the *****ing about PS3 installs has obviously had an effect. Personally I don't see the issue, you go to the bathroom, get a drink and when you come back it's done, and you get smoother game performance to boot.

Yes, there's some texture storage issues with DVD, but that's not a huge deal, especially with the better filtering in the 360 GPU. The biggest problem is not as much on texture storage on the consoles, it's pushing it through. The reason why you see a lot of games running sub-720p (like Alan Wake) is because they're using all their grunt on the environmentals. The filtering, the lighting, the fog, and that's chewing their cycles big time. The next generation should be able to push, in 3D much closer to 1080p on a regular basis. Remember that pushing 1080p on FPS games on PC takes a powerful CPU, and GPUs (usually more than one) that's well beyond what's in either console. Id is a PC games company at heart that sees and knows the need to do consoles. I'm sure Carmack will figure something out, or get MS to drop the royalty on the third disc by the time they ship.

[aygie]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

MAG doesn't really offer 256 players because they're not all operating in the same space.

Oh really.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_FEbTO8udg


(Yes it is a mess )

[Jeff Kleist]

Well, all I'd ever seen was the 64 player chunks, I don't think even the reviews I read mentioned this

Still, when you're playing the big badass game it's chunked right?

The real key is still dedicated servers on fast connections.

[aygie]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Personally I don't see the issue, you go to the bathroom, get a drink and when you come back it's done, and you get smoother game performance to boot.

Completely agree, the difference I had with SFIV was quite dramatic.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

they had to use an off the shelf solution rather than a customized one

My understanding was that they had to go with off-the-shelf hardward because the custom GPU Sony's contractor had been working on didn't come together in the late stages. Was I misinformed?

I remember the day of the PS3 specs release, when I saw the 'dual-headed 1080p output' stat and got funny looks as I shouted

"Pull the other one, Sony!"

[aygie]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Well, all I'd ever seen was the 64 player chunks, I don't think even the reviews I read mentioned this

Still, when you're playing the big badass game it's chunked right?

Yeah pretty much, you can go off and join other teams but there's not really any point, you'll just make your squad leader pissed.

That youtube video was cool cause they had basically won and their OIC just said "all meet here!" And they did, and didn't shoot each other. Classic.

I was really impressed that there doesn't seem to be any lag with all those guys on one screen at once either. Even though some people call it "LAG" and not MAG

[Jeff Kleist]

My understanding was that they had to go with off-the-shelf hardward because the custom GPU Sony's contractor had been working on didn't come together in the late stages. Was I misinformed?

My information comes out of the guy's book, so I assume it's accurate

That youtube video was cool cause they had basically won and their OIC just said "all meet here!" And they did, and didn't shoot each other. Classic.

If they'd started firing, everything would have lagged to hell, no matter how good things were. The whole point of the chunking is so that it only has to track the people in your sector

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Look at how Sony has shied away from mandatory installs despite the mandatory HD. Given the relatively slow speed of the Blu-ray drive compared to the 16x DVD drive, this means that a lot of the Blu-ray is being used for redundant data to reduce access times. All the *****ing about PS3 installs has obviously had an effect. Personally I don't see the issue, you go to the bathroom, get a drink and when you come back it's done, and you get smoother game performance to boot.

Yes, there's some texture storage issues with DVD, but that's not a huge deal, especially with the better filtering in the 360 GPU. The biggest problem is not as much on texture storage on the consoles, it's pushing it through. The reason why you see a lot of games running sub-720p (like Alan Wake) is because they're using all their grunt on the environmentals. The filtering, the lighting, the fog, and that's chewing their cycles big time. The next generation should be able to push, in 3D much closer to 1080p on a regular basis. Remember that pushing 1080p on FPS games on PC takes a powerful CPU, and GPUs (usually more than one) that's well beyond what's in either console. Id is a PC games company at heart that sees and knows the need to do consoles. I'm sure Carmack will figure something out, or get MS to drop the royalty on the third disc by the time they ship.

One thing they COULD do is ship games with optional discs that have higher resolution textures but in order to experience the game they would have to install the optional high rez textures. It would enable developers to break free from the limitations of the disc size and at the same time satisfy the requirements of system development.

In regard to Alan Wake and its sub HD. I do feel that the game does suffer because of its sub HD resolution because some of the effects are outright bad. The digital acting is one of the worst I've seen in a game.

As much as I liked Alan Wake, I cant help but get the feeling that the game was intended to be much bigger in terms of scope but that development got out of control and they more or less had to trim a lot of content out. Hence the long development time. I seem to recall that there was a time when the game was intended as open world. I do hope (and expect) Alan Wake to come to the PC eventually so I can see the game in its full rez glory.

[Jeff Kleist]

One thing they COULD do is ship games with optional discs that have higher resolution textures but in order to experience the game they would have to install the optional high rez textures. It would enable developers to break free from the limitations of the disc size and at the same time satisfy the requirements of system development.

They could, but they'd still run into the same issue of having to pay a royalty for pressing a disc. They could make it an optional XBL download, but I don't know how big that would have to be to be beneficial/feasilble at a low price point.

As much as I liked Alan Wake, I cant help but get the feeling that the game was intended to be much bigger in terms of scope but that development got out of control and they more or less had to trim a lot of content out. Hence the long development time. I seem to recall that there was a time when the game was intended as open world. I do hope (and expect) Alan Wake to come to the PC eventually so I can see the game in its full rez glory.

You're right there used to be more, but it was trimmed to keep the action tight. No one who has had 5 years has made any compromises, and making a game like that that needs a very specific path open world is counter productive to creating a big experience because you can't gurantee flow. Open world games by their very nature have to be in small bites.

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

They could, but they'd still run into the same issue of having to pay a royalty for pressing a disc. They could make it an optional XBL download, but I don't know how big that would have to be to be beneficial/feasilble at a low price point.

If it potentially creates a much better gaming experience then any developer should be all for it. As for an optional XBL download, Im not so sure that would be feasible given how big extra rez textures could potentially be. I dont see anything over 10GB as being practical to release on XBL.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

You're right there used to be more, but it was trimmed to keep the action tight. No one who has had 5 years has made any compromises, and making a game like that that needs a very specific path open world is counter productive to creating a big experience because you can't gurantee flow. Open world games by their very nature have to be in small bites.

Look at 3D Realms and Duke Nukem Forever. 3D Realms is a perfect example of why the creative minds cant always be the ones running the company and that you need someone with a business mindset to keep things in realistic perspective. I just feel really sorry for everyone who worked on DNF since many of them spent a lot of time working on it with nothing to show for it.

Im still happy with how Alan Wake turned out. It had the number one thing it needed to be a success: atmosphere. The game was by no means groundbreaking in terms of gameplay but it was presented in an original way with a story that made you want to see what happened next.




Btw, whats your thoughts on Assassins Creed Brotherhood? I like what I read, but I get the feeling the game will end up being more of an expansion pack at full game price (ala Halo 3 ODST)

[Jeff Kleist]

If it potentially creates a much better gaming experience then any developer should be all for it. As for an optional XBL download, Im not so sure that would be feasible given how big extra rez textures could potentially be. I dont see anything over 10GB as being practical to release on XBL.

You're forgetting that a huge chunk of the data on those discs is redundant. I doubt it'd top 4-5 GB.I'm pretty sure for example that Mass Effect 2 was at most 2GB over

Look at 3D Realms and Duke Nukem Forever. 3D Realms is a perfect example of why the creative minds cant always be the ones running the company and that you need someone with a business mindset to keep things in realistic perspective. I just feel really sorry for everyone who worked on DNF since many of them spent a lot of time working on it with nothing to show for it.

Alan Wake didn't under go 3+ complete engine changes and overhaul of the game either They also didn't declare release dates now a decade past

Btw, whats your thoughts on Assassins Creed Brotherhood? I like what I read, but I get the feeling the game will end up being more of an expansion pack at full game price (ala Halo 3 ODST)

Well, this is the good thing- a large chunk of the assets, characters and buildings they need already exist, so it's a lot of civil engineering more than building environments. They claim 15 hours of play, I say 8-12 tops Either way the multiplayer should be a blast.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Their games bore me. Portal was only good because it was short, new, and something they bought

I'm no particular fan of Valve, but Team Fortress 2 has more replay value and straight-up fun than just about any other game I've played this generation.

[Jeff Kleist]

I'm no particular fan of Valve, but Team Fortress 2 has more replay value and straight-up fun than just about any other game I've played this generation.

But I've played plenty of similar games many times before. Nothing special and I hate how floaty it is.