Batman Returns Discussion

[TylerDurden]

I remember seeing all the Batman films in the theater except Batman & Robin. I remember not being impressed with Returns as much as Batman. I think it's an ok film with alot of gothic overtones. The sets are definetly an improvement over Batman which used obvious miniature models for alot of the scenes. I think in that regard Returns is a better film. I think it's enjoyable but nothing that really blows you away.

Batman Begins was solely intended as a Batman only story, like Legends of the Dark Knight "Shaman", with a couple subplot characters. It was never intended to give background stories or origins for any character except Batman. Unlike the Burton films which depict the motivations for the antagonists, Nolan scraps these plots and focuses only on the main character. I personally love the Batman character so this is what really made BB stand out for me as a unique film like Superman.

[EricJ]

My memory of Returns was:
A) Yes, Tim, you're misogynist and have to insultingly kissup to whatever your ideas of "persecuted feminism" are. We GET it. (And if we didn't, we sure did after "Alice".)
and
B) Can we get Danny DeVito to play the Penguin again without Tim's slime-dribbling sewer obsessions because Burton didn't think the character was "interesting" enough? DeVito and the screenwriter absolutely nailed the canny, sardonic, delusion-of-elegance comics character on their own, until Goth-Boy had to go and dump his own ideas on everybody's parade.

Originally Posted by Beast

Batman Forever at least has some positive aspects.

Tommy Lee Jones was fantastic as Two Face. I actually think his character was great in the movie. But sadly his role was cut down so we could get more of Jim Carey's hamfisted Riddler.

And even though Jim's hamming-it-up was standard for a Joel Schumacher Batman (qv. Uma Thurman in B&R), we just took it in stride as Carrey Doing His Thang...Jones' Two-Face was good, BF just didn't have the first clue of to do with him.
Still I remember the feeling in the audience of a great sense of ding-dong-the-witch-is-dead relief that this wasn't Burton's one more time.

(And yes, so the thread's necro-bumped...But hey, it's on disk by now, isn't it?)

[FRAK]

I guess I'm in the minority, but I really, really like "Batman Returns." Saw it in the theater and we imported the UK Blu a year-or-so ago. Thought the dialogue between Pfifer and Keaton was great, loved the gothic look, etc. etc.

[OrlandoEastwood]

Anything with Christopher Walken is pretty much a win in my book. So, I liked Batman Returns. Also, Michelle Pfeiffer wasn't that bad in it either.

[Tcan21]

Originally Posted by TylerDurden

I remember seeing all the Batman films in the theater except Batman & Robin. I remember not being impressed with Returns as much as Batman. I think it's an ok film with alot of gothic overtones. The sets are definetly an improvement over Batman which used obvious miniature models for alot of the scenes. I think in that regard Returns is a better film. I think it's enjoyable but nothing that really blows you away.

Batman Begins was solely intended as a Batman only story, like Legends of the Dark Knight "Shaman", with a couple subplot characters. It was never intended to give background stories or origins for any character except Batman. Unlike the Burton films which depict the motivations for the antagonists, Nolan scraps these plots and focuses only on the main character. I personally love the Batman character so this is what really made BB stand out for me as a unique film like Superman.

Agree 100%.... I enjoy the Burton films, but the Nolan films are my personal favorite ones out of all the Batman movies.

[Belloche]

I remember liking Batman Returns when it came out but I don't think the Burton films have aged very well. The first movie still gets a pass for me because Nicholson is so over the top crazy fun. Batman Returns is an exercise in style over substance (as are most Burton films). Superhero movies have come a long way and I think hollywood has a much better understanding on how to translate comics to the screen now.
Having said this I still think the Burton Batman movies look absolutely brilliant compared to the Joel Shumacher garbage.

[Batman Begins]

I actually like all three Batman, Batman Returns and Batman Forever. I can watch Forever because actors do very well for what they were given. Val Kilmer Batman/Bruce Wayne better than Clooney. Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face a Joker wannabe not his fault though it's the directors. Jim Carrey makes it fun I like his all movies. Nicole Kidman was so hot in this movie (as a 12 year old boy I had a crush) Things hate in this movie Chris O'Donnell as Robin pretty old to be a sidekick and neon, colourful looking Gotham City other that it's good popcorn movie. As for Batman & Robin, this movie sucks and the actors are awful not like Forever cast at all. Thank God There Burton & Nolan movies but I have soft spot for Forever because it was first movie I saw in the cinema as a 12 year old kid back in 1995 and made me the bat-fan I am today.

[KubrickFan]

For me, Batman Returns is the perfect combination of Burton's prior two movies, Batman and Edward Scissorhands (call it Batward Scissorman, if you like). Every artist and writer that has ever done a Batman comic, movie, or television episode made the characters his own, so why Tim Burton should get flack for it, I really don't understand. Nolan did it too. Personally, Burton's Gotham is a lot more believable for the eccentric characters to be running around in.
Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman is amazing, and even if Nolan brings the character back for his third Batmovie, her performance probably won't be topped.
Danny DeVito is totally underrated for the slimy (both literally and figuratively) Penguin. Yes, Burton made a lot of changes to the original character, but I honestly believe you should judge by what it is, not by what it isn't.
In the end it all comes down to preference, I think. Both are different enough from the original comics for either one to be called the closest to the source material, and both directors gave their own spin to things. Both got things right, and both have things in their favor.

[TylerDurden]

Originally Posted by Tcan21

Agree 100%.... I enjoy the Burton films, but the Nolan films are my personal favorite ones out of all the Batman movies.

+1 I love knowing exactly why Batman is a badass

[Blu Smurf]

Originally Posted by KubrickFan

Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman is amazing, and even if Nolan brings the character back for his third Batmovie, her performance probably won't be topped.

They said the same about Nicholson playing the Joker being unbeatable, look what happened there.

[Batman Begins]

Originally Posted by Blu Smurf

They said the same about Nicholson playing the Joker being unbeatable, look what happened there.

Well you can't compare two Jokers really, two actors did a wonderful jobs and both versions are different. Nicholson did play it little over the top but that's how Hollywood understood comic books at the time. Now Ledger's Joker was something else that you couldn't recognise him in the make-up. Michelle P. did Burton's version no way Selling is a push over secretary assistant turned Catwoman in comics. If Catwoman is in Batman 3 she'll definitely different to Burton's we know that. Can be topped though.

[Darth Marcus]

Did they stop the pressing of the single Batman Returns blu? It's not available on the Best Buy website, and it is only available on Amazon through third-party sellers. I really want this but it's at least $25 in the places that I can find it.

[Kevin Holly]

Not only my favorite Batman film, but my favorite superhero film, ever.

I love this thing.

[zoomddy]

I was not a huge fan of Returns when I first saw it, but after watching it again it really grew on me. I loved the first Burton Batman, but it really has not aged well, and Burton should have been shot for the Prince songs.

Forever is OK, Batman & Robin was horrifying. Batman Begins was fantastic, and Dark Knight was good. Batman is the only comic I have stayed with over the years, and while I think Ledger's performance was good for what they were trying to do, the character as written and directed simply was not The Joker. I was talking about this with a friend the other day, and his take on The Dark Knight was that really the Bat costume and the Joker makeup were the only trappings of a superhero film, and really you could have made the exact same film without them and had a generic action movie. I don't necessarily agree with that, but he does have something of a point. Personally, I would love to see a fan overdub of the Dark Knight using Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill's voices.

I did pick up the Batman Anthology boxset . . . found it used at a pawn shop for $10, but I have not watched Batman & Robin again.

[MykeHavoc]

Originally Posted by Darth Marcus

Did they stop the pressing of the single Batman Returns blu? It's not available on the Best Buy website, and it is only available on Amazon through third-party sellers. I really want this but it's at least $25 in the places that I can find it.

I believe I remember some rumblings that the box set and individual releases might be pulled until closer to Dark Knight Rises. Not sure if that's true, but I doubt they'd be OOP.

Not only my favorite Batman film, but my favorite superhero film, ever.

^ This.

Burton should have been shot for the Prince songs

What the hell are you talking about? Batman has one of the best soundtracks ever.

the character as written and directed simply was not The Joker

You say you've stayed with the Batman comic over the years, but a statement like that makes me question the validity.

[zoomddy]

You say you've stayed with the Batman comic over the years, but a statement like that makes me question the validity.[/QUOTE]


What I am getting at is that Nolan stripped all the clown aspects from the character. Ledger's Joker was just a nutbag with smeared makeup . . . very intelligent, and wanting to simply watch the world burn. The point my friend was trying to get across, I think, is that really the villain in TDK could have been Hans Gruber or Professor Moriarty it would have made no difference in the film, and I kind of agree with that. The Joker as featured in Batman: The Animated Series is the definitive portrayal of the character, IMHO.

[MykeHavoc]

That's bull. That's exactly what the Joker is. The majority of his incarnations make him as a sociopathic madman first and a trickster second. The Dick Sprang style giant mallet shenanigans were exclusive to the 50's era comics, which were made that way to appease parents that were brainwashed by Fredric Wertham into thinking violent comics were destroying their children's minds.
And there are still plenty of gags in Dark Knight. The pencil trick? "Try-outs"? Dressing up as a female nurse? The fire truck...on fire? Slaughter is the best medicine? There's tons of them. If you're not paying attention, that is not the fault of the film.
To reiterate, he's represented perfectly fine in the film.

[Berek]

I remember seeing Batman Returns in the theater and watching the media practically rape Burton for making it so dark.

It's definitely earned cult classic status that's for sure.

[slimdude]

Originally Posted by Berek

I remember seeing Batman Returns in the theater and watching the media practically rape Burton for making it so dark.

It's definitely earned cult classic status that's for sure.

The atmosphere in the Batman movies, are suppose to be dark. You don't see real bats fly and roam around in the daytime because they're night specimens by nature. Bats sleeps during the day!

[Dastari]

Batman '89 was such a huge phenomenon. Up until then I'd only known the character through animation. I'll always remember being exposed to Batman '66 after '89 came out and The Family Channel started running the older show. I was horrified by how ridiculous it was. I had such high hopes for Batman Returns, but while I liked it more than Batman '66 it was silly in a gross way. Then there was the ridiculous stuff like Catwoman coming back to life because some cats licked her. I also didn't like how Batman was sidelined. It seems like '89 was Burton making a serious attempt at a Batman film. Returns feels more like Batman guest starring in a Tim Burton movie. So yeah I wasn't a fan of these and the Schumacher ones were even worse. I think the best thing that came out of hype around this and '89 is that we got Batman: The Animated Series, which was such a good show and I think did far more to promote the character in the zeitgeist than any of the films have.

Funny enough I did pick this one up on 4K recently along with '89. While I've watched '89 off and on over the years I've only seen Returns a few times. I have to say that watching them back to back in 4K that Returns definitely looks like the better film. The model shots '89 look so bad in UHD, but there's a lot less of that in Returns so it comes off better visually. There also aren't all the animated bits like how in '89 there's an animated silhouette for Batman or animated searchlights during the ending scene on the ledge. Those looked so bad in UHD, but because Returns doesn't do that it looks so much better.

So while I have to say that while I still don't like Returns a huge amount, I do appreciate it as more of Keaton's Batman and I do think that the 4K presentation with Atmos sound has done a lot to raise it in my estimation whereas I was a lot more disappointed with '89 in UHD.