Predator (1987) (Ultimate Hunter Edition)

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by mars396

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Blu-ray is a product. It is not supposed to be film preservation, it is business. If the exactly-as-it-appeared-in-theatres-look sells more copies than the improved-for-presentation-on-modern-equipment version for mass consumption, then that's what we will get. It is about presentation, NOT content. The original content is intact, unaltered, just easier to be viewed on an HDTV.

I'm a business school major myself. I understand economics. It's our job as film lovers and businessmen alike to show the studios that we WON"T buy crap. that it is more economical to make films as they SHOULD be rather than the uneducation masses. If the masses are uneducated, educate them. It worked for OAR and Pan n scan, it can work here

Originally Posted by mars396

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I am sorry if reality does not mesh with your grain-covered-glasses view of the World. Blu-ray is a product; a product that MUST sell in order for more product to be produced. Catalog titles must sell to the masses if we will get any chance of getting more. If the PRESENTATION needs to be slightly improved to sell more units to the ignorant, uneducated masses, then we all get more catalog titles (albeit slightly changed in presentation to sell better). If the mass majority of Blu-ray consumers stop buying Catalog titles because of the perception of "Nah, I'll pass: those old movies always look like crap on Blu-ray - I'll stick to my DVD", whether they are right or wrong, whether they are ignorant or uneducated or are "Enemies of Cinema", the bottom line is that Catolog titles will not be produced and sold on Blu-ray. And then we all lose.

yes, blu-ray is a product, a product that needs to sell. I guess all these other excellently done catalogue titles just don't sell either I guess. , Gangs of New York and Fifth Element were both recalled, Gangs specifically because of the mass haloing and DNR that was prevalent in that release. Gladiator as well has a rumored 2nd edition to fix the crap that happened due to Ridley Scott yapping at the studios. This is all the same type of diatribe that we heard during DVD years when we were fighting for OAR and Anamorphic transfers. "The mass public doesn't care", "DVD's need to sell and they won't cater to us nerds who have these newfangled widescreen tv's"

[SpotOn]

Originally Posted by Roy Batty

But that "in-between crowd" who doesn not really care one way or the other are not coming to this or any other thread to discuss it, so they are not a factor.

As for people not making a fuss about releases to get them DNR'd to suit their tastes, I am afraid you are forgetting here that all evidence points to the anti-grain mini-uproar on the net after the previous release as the reason behind this new release's DNR-pumped-up-to-the-max fiasco.

And that's really the root of the problem. The people who hated the grainy nature of the 2008 release threw a fit all over the internet, complaining loud enough and often enough for Fox to notice when it came time to do the Predators tie-in release.

So, they get their way and Fox does the cheapest, laziest tricks possible to the image and sells it to them as a restoration (which it is not). A number of people try (and had been trying for years now) to explain to the people who were not satisfied with the 2008 release the simplicities of image integrity to the original release in hopes that this treatment of a very popular title does not become a trend. Instead of listening and paying attention, they brand these people "grain lovers", "snobs", "elitists" and demand that they respect all opinions (no matter how inane, petty or uneducated they may be) or be branded as some kind of enemy of the everyman.

These guys get there way and they're still here crusading for something they already got. There's just no pleasing some people...

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by Roy Batty

I do not need to get the realities of business explained to me. I understand people will vote with their wallets and studios will cater to the largest target of consumers.

But that has NOTHING to do with what's RIGHT and what's WRONG about a PROPER, FAITHFUL REPRESENTATION of a movie on blu-ray or any other format. I thought that's what we care about and that's what we were discussing here; my mistake.

most of us are. Like I've said before, it's only 2-3 members in this thread. Most people say "I like it" or "This SUCKS!!" and go on. 2-3 members here are fighting tooth and nail to get us film "eliteists" to understand that's it's "good enough".

[al cos.]

Originally Posted by mars396

...sigh... Perhaps because I went to Business School instead of Film School that disqualifies me

Did they tell you at business school that nobody is going to refuse to buy a movie they normally would have because "it hasn't been changed enough" ? They already WANT the movie. They already like it. The only reason anyone is passing on this disc is because of these New Coke alterations.

[mars396]

Originally Posted by wormraper

This is all the same type of diatribe that we heard during DVD years when we were fighting for OAR and Anamorphic transfers. "The mass public doesn't care", "DVD's need to sell and they won't cater to us nerds who have these newfangled widescreen tv's"

OAR and Anamorphic sold, as they were both improvements to PRESENTATION. The original work was not altered.

right or wrong, ignorant, or "against the intent of the director" or not, DNR is just another change to the PRESENTATION. If DNR makes it look better to the uneducated ignorant Joe 6Pack masses, then it will sell more titles. The bottom line is that DNR does not change the CONTENT of the original work, any more than OAR and Animorphic transfers did. The presentation, yes, but not the CONTENT.

[tvine2000]

Originally Posted by persuazion

Opinions cant be right or wrong....thats the whole thing Im trying to get at. The Black Eyed Peas are a group......fact. Do they suck.....yes. My opinion doesnt mean anything to anybody except myself.

Then if your opinion only matters to yourself,why are you here.?

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by mars396

OAR and Anamorphic sold, as they were both improvements to PRESENTATION. The original work was not altered.

right or wrong, ignorant, or "against the intent of the director" or not, DNR is just another change to the PRESENTATION. If DNR makes it look better to the uneducated ignorant Joe 6Pack masses, then it will sell more titles. The bottom line is that DNR does not change the CONTENT of the original work, any more than OAR and Animorphic transfers did. The presentation, yes, but not the CONTENT.

*sigh, you really don't know much about the history of Home video do you?? stop spouting what you don't know about. Pan n scan and Non-anamorphic transers were FINE to the average viewer, it was us film buffs that it made a difference too. Just like DNR. I'm sorry but there was a HUGE fight among the film buffs and the studios about this issue. Many people Bill Hunt included put their reputations and jobs on the line to get these standards in place.

[Dotpattern]

Originally Posted by mars396

...sigh...

I will try one last time to get you guys to understand my point, before I give up.

I cannot believe how intelligent you all are about film production, film history, Film projection, etc, yet just don't "get" basic economics.

Or perhaps we get your point of view just fine and it is you who refuse to understand ours. All of your reasons don't make it right. So the masses want to see movies in color, and there are those that definitely prefer it, does that make it right to colorize Psycho? It's an analogy you keep, quite conveniently, keep refusing to address. So if the studios believed they would sell more copies of Aliens if they replaced all the aliens with CGI aliens (without Cameron's consent) would that make it "right"?

As I've said, if you like it, go watch it and enjoy it. You are never, ever, going to convince anyone who understands how movies are made and has appreciation and respect for the art of filmmaking that you have a valid reason for altering an artists' intent to satisfy the less informed. I really don't understand why you actually think you're going to sway opinions with so little credibility, or why you even care so much.

[persuazion]

Originally Posted by tvine2000

Then if your opinion only matters to yourself,why are you here.?

Its a bluray forum and I like Blurays...... I dont understand why my opinion would cause so much anger and hatred because it is MY opinion.I think thats what most of us are baffled by......

[mars396]

Originally Posted by Dotpattern

So the masses want to see movies in color, and there are those that definitely prefer it, does that make it right to colorize Psycho? It's an analogy you keep, quite conveniently, keep refusing to address. So if the studios believed they would sell more copies of Aliens if they replaced all the aliens with CGI aliens (without Cameron's consent) would that make it "right"?

of course not ! That would be altering the CONTENT, which I am adamantly opposed to.

I just want improved presentation on Blu-ray. Aliens is coming, and I want it done right (or in your view, wrong). That's why I care.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by mars396

of course not ! That would be altering the CONTENT, which I am adamantly opposed to.

I just want improved presentation on Blu-ray. Aliens is coming, and I want it done right (or in your view, wrong). That's why I care.

The presentation is every bit as important as the content

[al cos.]

Originally Posted by mars396

If DNR makes it look better to the uneducated ignorant Joe 6Pack masses, then it will sell more titles. .

So your scenario is this: An average person is in the store and thinks "I love that old movie, I want to buy it and normally I would. But...some other old movie I got the other day wasn't smooth enough so I won't get this one."
The hell?

[Roy Batty]

Originally Posted by persuazion

Its a bluray forum and I like Blurays...... I dont understand why my opinion would cause so much anger and hatred because it is MY opinion.I think thats what most of us are baffled by......

Because you and other like you insist in making this a matter of opinions, which it is NOT.

[persuazion]

Originally Posted by Roy Batty

But that "in-between crowd" who doesn not really care one way or the other are not coming to this or any other thread to discuss it, so they are not a factor.

As for people not making a fuss about releases to get them DNR'd to suit their tastes, I am afraid you are forgetting here that all evidence points to the anti-grain mini-uproar on the net after the previous release as the reason behind this new release's DNR-pumped-up-to-the-max fiasco.

I am one of those people...I really dont care and I bought both editions but I just happen to think the new one looks better.I have plenty of blus with heavy grain and i have some that are DNR'd to death....as for the previous release.....many of the "reputable" sites were saying how it dident look as good as it should also....dont bash the old release then when this one comes along go back and praise the other one like its a top notch transfer.

[mars396]

Originally Posted by wormraper

The presentation is every bit as important as the content

we agree !

We agree on so much, why is there such anger ?

I have to go be a person out the World at a 4th of July BBQ.

enjoy the rest of your day on the Forum.

[persuazion]

Originally Posted by Roy Batty

Because you and other like you insist in making this a matter of opinions, which it is NOT.

Ok it is a fact that I am wrong because I think it looks alright......that doesnt even make sense.

[SpotOn]

Originally Posted by persuazion

Its a bluray forum and I like Blurays...... I dont understand why my opinion would cause so much anger and hatred because it is MY opinion.I think thats what most of us are baffled by......

No, its just more of your pro-DNR crusading. This was discussed yesterday, but you probably seem to think we cannot figure out how to look up posting history.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by mars396

we agree !

We agree on so much, why is there such anger ?

I have to go be a person out the World at a 4th of July BBQ.

enjoy the rest of your day on the Forum.

but we don't, I agree that the presentation is just as important as content.... Untouched and unaltered

[Roy Batty]

Originally Posted by mars396

I just want improved presentation on Blu-ray. Aliens is coming, and I want it done right (or in your view, wrong). That's why I care.

And again, and again, and again...

Get this into your head: it is NOT our view against yours.

You may care, that may be so, but you are simply WRONG. That's a fact.

[Dotpattern]

Originally Posted by mars396

of course not ! That would be altering the CONTENT, which I am adamantly opposed to.

I just want improved presentation on Blu-ray. Aliens is coming, and I want it done right (or in your view, wrong). That's why I care.

Depends on your definition of "right." James Cameron states on the DVD commentary that he specifically and intentionally shot Aliens with heavy grain. He also personally supervised the (very grainy) transfer to DVD.

So what would be "right" in this case for the release to Blu-ray?

And since you've finally claimed you're against altering content, please explain how the content would be in any way altered by changing men in suits to CGI? Does the story somehow change? Do the characters or their actions somehow change? What you continue to refuse to understand is how such alterations have the same impact on us "film buffs" as removing the intended film grain.