INCEPTION Review Thread (SPOILERS!!)

[SpaceDog]

Forgive me - I'm at work, and I've only read the last 2 pages, so I don't know if this has already been addressed. There seems to be a lot of conflict about the ending of the film, but I think it's crystal clear.

My perspective on the film/ending:

[Show spoiler]
Early in the film I suspected that Cobb was asleep. I was thrown off this possibility when he was being chased and shot at in the "real" world - thinking he can't be shot or...
Nolan gives us everything we need to know that Cobb is in fact asleep at his "waking" level.
First: Dream time - dream time is exponentially longer the lower you go. If in the first level of dream, you experience 20x more time than passes in the real world, at the second level of dream it's 20x longer than that, and the 3rd another 20x.
Second: Cobb and Mal's life together in dream. Cobb explains to Ariadne that he and his wife had experimented with levels of dreaming and arrived at a level where they created a whole world. Later, he explains to Mal that they spent a full lifetime together, grew old together. You cannot do this at level 1 of dreaming, nor level 2 - it would have to be level 3 or lower.
Third: Inception. Cobb Incepts Mal to convince her that she is not living in reality and they must rise. He convinces her to lay her head on the tracks where they wait for the train and they wake in their apartment. This waking scene is the same waking scene used earlier when Cobb explained that she killed herself.
The only waking scene.
So if they had to be on level 3 or below - Mal did not kill herself, she woke up, or rose another level.
Cobb is still in the dream. The top did not stop spinning.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by SpaceDog

Forgive me - I'm at work, and I've only read the last 2 pages, so I don't know if this has already been addressed. There seems to be a lot of conflict about the ending of the film, but I think it's crystal clear.

My perspective on the film/ending:

[Show spoiler]
Early in the film I suspected that Cobb was asleep. I was thrown off this possibility when he was being chased and shot at in the "real" world - thinking he can't be shot or...
Nolan gives us everything we need to know that Cobb is in fact asleep at his "waking" level.
First: Dream time - dream time is exponentially longer the lower you go. If in the first level of dream, you experience 20x more time than passes in the real world, at the second level of dream it's 20x longer than that, and the 3rd another 20x.
Second: Cobb and Mal's life together in dream. Cobb explains to Ariadne that he and his wife had experimented with levels of dreaming and arrived at a level where they created a whole world. Later, he explains to Mal that they spent a full lifetime together, grew old together. You cannot do this at level 1 of dreaming, nor level 2 - it would have to be level 3 or lower.
Third: Inception. Cobb Incepts Mal to convince her that she is not living in reality and they must rise. He convinces her to lay her head on the tracks where they wait for the train and they wake in their apartment. This waking scene is the same waking scene used earlier when Cobb explained that she killed herself.
The only waking scene.
So if they had to be on level 3 or below - Mal did not kill herself, she woke up, or rose another level.
Cobb is still in the dream. The top did not stop spinning.

Problem...

[Show spoiler]Once you are in limbo, as Cobb & Mal were for their 50 years of growing old together, you can't use the traditional dream level jumping kick back method. In limbo you have no connection to the other dream levels. They say it many times. In limbo you are lost! Therefore, IF you come out of it, it's straight to waking up in the real world.

[mikejet]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Problem...

[Show spoiler]Once you are in limbo, as Cobb & Mal were for their 50 years of growing old together, you can't use the traditional dream level jumping kick back method. In limbo you have no connection to the other dream levels. They say it many times. In limbo you are lost! Therefore, IF you come out of it, it's straight to waking up in the real world.

[Show spoiler]it's almost like his subconscious pulled a Mr. Charles on itself.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by mikejet

[Show spoiler]it's almost like his subconscious pulled a Mr. Charles on itself.

If that's in agreement with me, I don't quite follow.

[SpaceDog]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Problem...

[Show spoiler]Once you are in limbo, as Cobb & Mal were for their 50 years of growing old together, you can't use the traditional dream level jumping kick back method. In limbo you have no connection to the other dream levels. They say it many times. In limbo you are lost! Therefore, IF you come out of it, it's straight to waking up in the real world.

I don't think there is anything explicitly stated in the film that supports that conclusion.

[mikejet]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

If that's in agreement with me, I don't quite follow.

[Show spoiler]his mind found a way to turn him against himself. the mol he saw was always a fake version of her so his mind had to trick itself into attacking that projection.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by SpaceDog

I don't think there is anything explicitly stated in the film that supports that conclusion.

Except that they say something along the lines of,

[Show spoiler]"Once you fall into limbo, you are lost. It would be nearly impossible to come back."

[SpaceDog]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Except that they say something along the lines of,

[Show spoiler]"Once you fall into limbo, you are lost. It would be nearly impossible to come back."

[Show spoiler]I understand the difficulty of coming back from limbo - the aspect of your statement that has no support is the supposition that if you do wake from limbo you wake all the way to the real world in one shot. Everything in the film presents that you wake into each tier, as shown with his team and their successful waking. The fact that they jumped right from Saito's limbo to the plane is just a matter of editing, not plot. They didn't show Cobb waking through his various phases either, but he was assuredly not in limbo - he was in another level of the dream as Ariadne had been.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by SpaceDog

[Show spoiler]I understand the difficulty of coming back from limbo - the aspect of your statement that has no support is the supposition that if you do wake from limbo you wake all the way to the real world in one shot. Everything in the film presents that you wake into each tier, as shown with his team and their successful waking. The fact that they jumped right from Saito's limbo to the plane is just a matter of editing, not plot. They didn't show Cobb waking through his various phases either, but he was assuredly not in limbo - he was in another level of the dream as Ariadne had been.

[Show spoiler]No he wasn't. Cobb & Mal went too deep without understanding what they were doing and got dropped into limbo... lost to the leveling echelon. Saito died while tied into the deepest dream level and got dropped into limbo... lost to the leveling echelon. Cobb was stabbed and killed in the level where he confronts Mal (his guilt). Ariadne was able to kick back because she was plugged in. Cobb stayed behind and died while that dream level was ripped apart. Thus, dropping to limbo with Saito. Cobb, Mal, and Saito all got lost in limbo where their leveling echelon was no longer a valid path back to reality. Therefore, the only path back is a direct jump back to reality... if they are able to pull it off, which doesn't really matter (but that's a whold different ball of wax). Ariadne is the only one who went deep enough to fear the same, but she took a proper kick to ride the wave back from the level where Cobb confronted his guilt (Mal).

[jasonbourne]

Awesome film 10/10 loved it, best film I've seen in the past 3 years.

[SpaceDog]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

[Show spoiler]No he wasn't. Cobb & Mal went too deep without understanding what they were doing and got dropped into limbo... lost to the leveling echelon. Saito died while tied into the deepest dream level and got dropped into limbo... lost to the leveling echelon. Cobb was stabbed and killed in the level where he confronts Mal (his guilt). Ariadne was able to kick back because she was plugged in. Cobb stayed behind and died while that dream level was ripped apart. Thus, dropping to limbo with Saito. Cobb, Mal, and Saito all got lost in limbo where their leveling echelon was no longer a valid path back to reality. Therefore, the only path back is a direct jump back to reality... if they are able to pull it off, which doesn't really matter (but that's a whold different ball of wax). Ariadne is the only one who went deep enough to fear the same, but she took a proper kick to ride the wave back from the level where Cobb confronted his guilt (Mal).

I would have to see it a second time to reaffirm my position, but again I don't see anything

[Show spoiler] (save for an editing choice) that suggests that you don't have to level back when you limbo. Further, I don't think that Mal and Cobb were "limboed" in the sense he suggested as they explained why they couldn't kill Saito. They had simply gone enough levels into the dream that they lost track of the fact that it was a dream in the first place. So no matter how much time passes, you still need to scale back through each stage of dreaming.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by SpaceDog

I would have to see it a second time to reaffirm my position, but again I don't see anything

[Show spoiler] (save for an editing choice) that suggests that you don't have to level back when you limbo. Further, I don't think that Mal and Cobb were "limboed" in the sense he suggested as they explained why they couldn't kill Saito. They had simply gone enough levels into the dream that they lost track of the fact that it was a dream in the first place. So no matter how much time passes, you still need to scale back through each stage of dreaming.

[Show spoiler]Cobb and Mal were in limbo. They state in the film that anyone who falls into limbo while dreamsharing will fall into someone elses limbo if anyone had already been there. That is why they are able to walk through a crumbling version of Cobb and Mal's city that they built. They were in Fischer's limbo dream. Once Cobb dies in that and drops to limbo himself, losing the leveling echelon forces a type of limbo reboot for him (he wakes in the surf of the ocean). That is why Saito has aged so much. Having had a headstart on the limbo, he has experienced decades before Cobb showed up.

[tommyboy81]

Originally Posted by SpaceDog

I would have to see it a second time to reaffirm my position, but again I don't see anything

[Show spoiler] (save for an editing choice) that suggests that you don't have to level back when you limbo. Further, I don't think that Mal and Cobb were "limboed" in the sense he suggested as they explained why they couldn't kill Saito. They had simply gone enough levels into the dream that they lost track of the fact that it was a dream in the first place. So no matter how much time passes, you still need to scale back through each stage of dreaming.

Fischer and Aria did

[garlad]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

[Show spoiler]Cobb and Mal were in limbo. They state in the film that anyone who falls into limbo while dreamsharing will fall into someone elses limbo if anyone had already been there. That is why they are able to walk through a crumbling version of Cobb and Mal's city that they built.

Go Petra!!

Have to go see it again after last night's chat! Cant stop thinking about it!

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by tommyboy81

Fischer and Aria did

[Show spoiler]Ah, but I don't recall Fischer going through the leveling back... just Ariadne. Technically, he should have straight woken up in the plane. He died, fell into limbo, and would not have had a link back to level 3. His fall off of the building should have shaked him straight back to the plane. Hmmm... I'm gonna have to check for Fischer details on my 3rd viewing. That now seems to be the only grey spot in my understanding of it all now.

[SpaceDog]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

[Show spoiler]Cobb and Mal were in limbo. They state in the film that anyone who falls into limbo while dreamsharing will fall into someone elses limbo if anyone had already been there. That is why they are able to walk through a crumbling version of Cobb and Mal's city that they built. They were in Fischer's limbo dream. Once Cobb dies in that and drops to limbo himself, losing the leveling echelon forces a type of limbo reboot for him (he wakes in the surf of the ocean). That is why Saito has aged so much. Having had a headstart on the limbo, he has experienced decades before Cobb showed up.

You still have not explained

[Show spoiler] any concrete reason why someone in limbo would not have to rise through the other levels of dream

[tommyboy81]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

[Show spoiler]Ah, but I don't recall Fischer going through the leveling back... just Ariadne. Technically, he should have straight woken up in the plane. He died, fell into limbo, and would not have had a link back to level 3. His fall off of the building should have shaked him straight back to the plane. Hmmm... I'm gonna have to check for Fischer details on my 3rd viewing. That now seems to be the only grey spot in my understanding of it all now.

[Show spoiler] Fischer went straight to 3rd level. The scene where he saw his father and realised his father was disappointed he tried to be him and puller the Pinwheel out of the safe.(the idea). They didn't show the kick to the Hotel room but you see him wake in the Van and Eames pulling him out and Eames and Fischer talking

[Buddy Christ]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Problem...

[Show spoiler]Once you are in limbo, as Cobb & Mal were for their 50 years of growing old together, you can't use the traditional dream level jumping kick back method. In limbo you have no connection to the other dream levels. They say it many times. In limbo you are lost! Therefore, IF you come out of it, it's straight to waking up in the real world.

No they say it once

[Show spoiler] And Mal and Cobb were not in limbo because they had the ability to get out at any time. Limbo is when you die many levels down you get lost. Had not Mal stabbed Cobb, Cobb could have just looked for Saito. But since he died too after Saito, it wasn't until Saito's protection FOUND Cobb that they reunite. Though the location of level four and Limbo were the same, people have different experiences there.

[Buddy Christ]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

[Show spoiler]Ah, but I don't recall Fischer going through the leveling back... just Ariadne. Technically, he should have straight woken up in the plane. He died, fell into limbo, and would not have had a link back to level 3. His fall off of the building should have shaked him straight back to the plane. Hmmm... I'm gonna have to check for Fischer details on my 3rd viewing. That now seems to be the only grey spot in my understanding of it all now.

[Show spoiler]Every one levels up. Fischer had a conversation with what's his name outside the van on the shore.

[Darkhawk9587]

As much as I loved the film,

[Show spoiler]I didn't care for the ending. First, I figured something like that would happen, which was disappointing. But worst of all, to me, it felt like a cop out, just like (and please forgive me for bringing up this atrocious movie referrence) X-Men: The Last Stand. In that film, the mutants who lost their powers, had no more powers (supposedly). Yet, at the end, Magneto is seen playing chess (ironically with metal pieces) and he tries to control the metal. Some say the piece did move, others did not. In other words, there's the possibility of the entire film's plot contradicting itself. On a similar note, with Inception, some people believe the top keeps spinning, meaning Cobb is still in a dream, whereas others say the slight wobbling means it will eventually topple. I personally think it's still a dream. But, there's no definitive answer, which, to me, feels like nothing more than a cop out by Nolan. However, let me state that there is nothing wrong with that; and, I still love the film. Just my two cents on a near perfect film.