INCEPTION Review Thread (SPOILERS!!)

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by Foggy

[Show spoiler]It was Cobb's dream, it was his subconscious

[Show spoiler]This comment makes it evident that you missed a key point in the movie. The dreamer is the person who creates and has some level of control over the constructed dreamworld. The subject is the person whose subconscious primarily populates the dreamworld with projections. The subject cannot consciously change the dreamworld (unless they are also the dreamer). These are two distinct roles. The only time we see one person serving both roles in the dreamworld is when Cobb is hooked up to the machine alone and Ariadne enters his dream simply as a "tourist." In that instance and that instance only, Cobb was the dreamer and the subject.

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by kefrank

[Show spoiler]No, I believe you're still confused about that. See mjbethancourt's earlier post. She's the dreamer. This is clearly evident as only the dreamer can construct and change the "dreamscape" while in the dream. The only thing Cobb is in "in control of" in the training dream is his own conscious self in the dreamworld.

To clarify further, the architect designs the dreamscape and presents the design to the dreamer so that the dreamer will actually manifest it in the dreamworld. The dreamer has the ability to alter the dreamscape while in the dream (as shown by Arthur's staircase paradox during the inception), but should avoid altering very much because the projections will become aware of the dreamer when things start to change. When there is no architect (as in the case of the training dream), the dreamer simply goes into the dream with whatever dreamscape they want to.

[Show spoiler]No, they went after her because she was changing to much of Cobb's dream, the subconscious realized this and attacked her, that's why they pulled Cobb away from her as she was invading his dream, they killed her a protected Cobb

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by kefrank

[Show spoiler]This comment makes it evident that you missed a key point in the movie. The dreamer is the person who creates and has some level of control over the constructed dreamworld. The subject is the person whose subconscious primarily populates the dreamworld with projections. The subject cannot consciously change the dreamworld (unless they are also the dreamer). These are two distinct roles. The only time we see one person serving both roles in the dreamworld is when Cobb is hooked up to the machine alone and Ariadne enters his dream simply as a "tourist." In that instance and that instance only, Cobb was the dreamer and the subject.

[Show spoiler]They weren't dreams, they we're memories she can't change them, yet when she entered, the subconscious still acted hostile towards her.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by Foggy

[Show spoiler]No, they went after her because she was changing to much of Cobb's dream, the subconscious realized this and attacked her, that's why they pulled Cobb away from her as she was invading his dream, they killed her a protected Cobb

[Show spoiler]I think you simply need to see it again, because that's not how Cobb explains it in the dialogue. The dreamer creates the dreamscape and has the ability to change it. The dreamscape is populated with the subject's subconscious. The projections are part of the subconscious and as such, they try to protect subconscious information, not the dream itself. If the dreamer changes the dreamscape, the subconscious projections start to become aware that they're in someone else's dream meaning information in the subconscious is in jeopardy. They go after the dreamer, because getting the dreamer to wake up breaks the stability of the dream and protects the subconscious information from being revealed in the dreamworld.

If it worked the way you think it does, then the entire inception heist doesn't make sense. If anyone hooked up to the machine can change the dreamscape and changing the dreamer's dreamscape only slightly (like Ariadne does in the training dream) causes all the projections to become aware of you, then surely a member of the team changing Fischer's dream entirely to the world that the architect designed would cause every projection to go crazy. And yet, the regular projections are perfectly fine in level 1 of the inception dream. It's only the security projections that go after them.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by Foggy

[Show spoiler]They weren't dreams, they we're memories she can't change them, yet when she entered, the subconscious still acted hostile towards her.

[Show spoiler]No, they weren't memories. They were Cobb's dreamworld constructed from memories, but they weren't memories themselves. Mal acted hostile toward Ariadne there, but that's something entirely different, because Mal is a very unique projection from Cobb's deep psychological instability. Her hostility throughout the movie is not nearly as drone-like and rules-based as the regular subject projections or even the security projections.

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by kefrank

[Show spoiler]I think you simply need to see it again, because that's not how Cobb explains it in the dialogue. The dreamer creates the dreamscape and has the ability to change it. The dreamscape is populated with the subject's subconscious. The projections are part of the subconscious and as such, they try to protect subconscious information, not the dream itself. If the dreamer changes the dreamscape, the subconscious projections start to become aware that they're in someone else's dream meaning information in the subconscious is in jeopardy. They go after the dreamer, because getting the dreamer to wake up breaks the stability of the dream and protects the subconscious information from being revealed in the dreamworld.

If it worked the way you think it does, then the entire inception heist doesn't make sense. If anyone hooked up to the machine can change the dreamscape and changing the dreamer's dreamscape only slightly (like Ariadne does in the training dream) causes all the projections to become aware of you, then surely a member of the team changing Fischer's dream entirely to the world that the architect designed would cause every projection to go crazy. And yet, the regular projections are perfectly fine in level 1 of the inception dream. It's only the security projections that go after them.

[Show spoiler]There not in Fischer's dream though, on each level each person had a different dream and they have to stay awake, Level 1) Yusuf, Level 2) Authur and Level 3) Eames, these guy create the dreams for Fischer to go into, really it's Fischer in the dream they created for him, so it's his subconscious in there worlds, so when they attack them when he's getting kidnapped in the taxi as he got Military dream training.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Foggy

[Show spoiler]There not in Fischer's dream though, on each level each person had a different dream and they have to stay awake, Level 1) Yusuf, Level 2) Authur and Level 3) Eames, these guy create the dreams for Fischer to go into, really it's Fischer in the dream they created for him, so it's his subconscious in there worlds, so when they attack them when he's getting kidnapped in the taxi as he got Military dream training.

[Show spoiler]I love how they even use that against him, so wrong and brilliant at the same time. It does cost Saito his life, though.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by Foggy

[Show spoiler]There not in Fischer's dream though, on each level each person had a different dream and they have to stay awake, Level 1) Yusuf, Level 2) Authur and Level 3) Eames, these guy create the dreams for Fischer to go into, really it's Fischer in the dream they created for him, so it's his subconscious in there worlds, so when they attack them when he's getting kidnapped in the taxi as he got Military dream training.

[Show spoiler]That's exactly my point. You're suggesting that the dreamer is also the subject, but that's obviously not the case in the inception heist where Fischer is the subject whose subconscious is populating the dreamworlds created (and in some cases, changed) by the respective dreamers (Yusuf, Arthur, and Eames). In Arthur's dream, when Cobb starts telling Fischer that he's in a dream, the projections become more aware of who? Yep, Arthur. And Arthur's not changing a thing at that point - he's just sitting there with Ariadne. They're becoming more aware of him because he's the dreamer, which goes back to my original point.

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by kefrank

[Show spoiler]That's exactly my point. You're suggesting that the dreamer is also the subject, but that's obviously not the case in the inception heist where Fischer is the subject whose subconscious is populating the dreamworlds created (and in some cases, changed) by the respective dreamers (Yusuf, Arthur, and Eames). In Arthur's dream, when Cobb starts telling Fischer that he's in a dream, the projections become more aware of who? Yep, Arthur. And Arthur's not changing a thing at that point - he's just sitting there with Ariadne. They're becoming more aware of him because he's the dreamer, which goes back to my original point.

[Show spoiler]Yeah, but they attack any one except the dreamer, if you watch, they don't attack Arther in his dream until he fights back, and I know for a point that the training was in Cobb's dream, not Ariadne.

I also just found out that Nolan didn't let Hans Zimmer see the movie to score it, which I found odd until I can across this on youtube.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Foggy

[Show spoiler]Yeah, but they attack any one except the dreamer, if you watch, they don't attack Arther in his dream until he fights back, and I know for a point that the training was in Cobb's dream, not Ariadne.

I also just found out that Nolan didn't let Hans Zimmer see the movie to score it, which I found odd until I can across this on youtube.

[Show spoiler]Not really surprised, not the kind of movie that would be easy to score if you saw what the music was effecting.

[Bishop_99]

[Show spoiler]I only saw the movie once but I pretty much got that the training was in Cobb's dream and she was being attacked because she was changing his dream.

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by Bishop_99

[Show spoiler]I only saw the movie once but I pretty much got that the training was in Cobb's dream and she was being attacked because she was changing his dream.

I would spoiler that but that's I really think that's what Nolan was implying

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Foggy

I would spoiler that but that's I really think that's what Nolan was implying

[Show spoiler]I do find it odd she would choose to use her trip to the university that she makes every day to create a random bridge using mirrors. Also found it odd that he got so mad about it. Wait I know what can settle this. I can't remember if Mal was in that dream or not, was she?

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

[Show spoiler]I do find it odd she would choose to use her trip to the university that she makes every day to create a random bridge using mirrors. Also found it odd that he got so mad about it. Wait I know what can settle this. I can't remember if Mal was in that dream or not, was she?

[Show spoiler]Mal was in the dream, shes the one that killed her.
Cobb got mad because if create images from your memory it's easier to lose grasp on whats reality.

[Fred Bang]

Just found this incredibly cool tidbit on chud.com (on the link, click the second video):

http://chud.com/articles/articles/24...ORE/Page1.html

[Show spoiler]Basically, the main theme is "Non Je ne regrette rien" from Edith Piaf slowed down.

Eerie!

[Bishop_99]

Originally Posted by Foggy

I would spoiler that but that's I really think that's what Nolan was implying

Ooopss.......Fixed

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by Fred Bang

Just found this incredibly cool tidbit on chud.com (on the link, click the second video):

http://chud.com/articles/articles/24...ORE/Page1.html

[Show spoiler]Basically, the main theme is "Non Je ne regrette rien" from Edith Piaf slowed down.

Eerie!

Look up, I just posted that 2 seconds ago

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Foggy

[Show spoiler]Mal was in the dream, shes the one that killed her.
Cobb got mad because if create images from your memory it's easier to lose grasp on whats reality.

[Show spoiler]Then it increases the likelihood that it is his dream since she wouldn't really populate her own dream with a projection of someone she was unaware of at the time. Unless I'm mistaken about how all of that is done.

[Fred Bang]

Originally Posted by Foggy

Look up, I just posted that 2 seconds ago

Aaargh! I read your comment on the link which didn't seem to refer to the coolness of the comparison. Nevertheless, it's cool.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by Foggy

[Show spoiler]Yeah, but they attack any one except the dreamer, if you watch, they don't attack Arther in his dream until he fights back, and I know for a point that the training was in Cobb's dream, not Ariadne.

[Show spoiler]You still haven't explained why the projections start noticing Arthur when Mr. Charles is helping Fischer become aware that he's in a dream. This is easily remembered because Arthur kisses Ariadne, she says, "they're still looking at us" and he says, "it was worth a shot." Why would they start looking at him if he wasn't doing anything except sitting there and not changing anything? The only explanation is that it's because he's the dreamer.