INCEPTION Review Thread (SPOILERS!!)

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Maybe you missed the point of that series of questions.
Somebody else was being obtuse and self-contradictory, Buddy was trying to "lawyer" him out, but all he ever got for it was more obfuscation.

I was self-contradictory once, and that was because my statement wasn't fully explained properly. And I've since corrected my meaning of that statement. I'm not being obtuse. I'm being logical. It's 1000% more logical to believe that the dream machine links the people together and just doesn't sedate them. And, here is my explanation once more. Either you didn't read it or ignored it because you finally have come to understand what I've been trying to say.

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Sure. I'll answer that question again. I have answered it several times already. Cobb "runs into" Saito even though he did not link to him because he would have either died from the wounds that Mal inflicted on him and therefore would have dropped into limbo, or when Fischer wakes up in the hospital level the link Cobb has to that level is destroyed, therefore without having been kicked back, he will become lost and drop into limbo. The key to that scene is understanding that Cobb and Ariadne are only piggybacking into limbo along Fishcer. Otherwise, Cobb wouldn't find himself face down in the ocean after that scene with Mal and Ariadne wouldn't be able to ride the kick ladder back. Cobb would just stand up after Ariadne & Fischer leave and walk out of the building to go find Saito. Why does he wake up face first in the ocean if he didn't just fall into limbo himself? EVERYTIME we see someone enter limbo, they find themselves in the drink. So, when Cobb finds Saito, he has been dropped into limbo. Why is that? Something has to explain that. And, my theory is that he & Ariadne could not have been completely in limbo before. They must have had a path/connection back to the hospital level. Cobb became seperated from that path/connection and was forced back into limbo as a fresh rebooted experience.

But, in turn, it doesn't make sense for Cobb & Ariadne to go to limbo by falling asleep without linking to Fischer in level 3. That means that they would be lost in limbo. Therefore, Cobb wouldn't wake up in the ocean and Ariadne & Fischer would wake up in the plane when they jump off of the building. They wouldn't ride the kick ladder back as we see them do.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

I was self-contradictory once, and that was because my statement wasn't fully explained properly. And I've since corrected my meaning of that statement. I'm not being obtuse. I'm being logical. It's 1000% more logical to believe that the dream machine links the people together and just doesn't sedate them. And, here is my explanation once more. Either you didn't read it or ignored it because you finally have come to understand what I've been trying to say.

I understand you perfectly, and I think you're wrong. Don't even try reducing the arguments of myself and Buddy down to saying that the machine only sedates people and doesn't link them. You're trying to sweep the real disagreements under the rug and introduce confusion, because you know you were wrong.

Another thousand words or another repost are not going to change the fact that they did not hook into Fischer's "dead" body at the Mountain Base Hospital, or that Yusuf did say that he could customize the time scale with his chemical compounds, or any of the other things you've been wrong about that you won't back off of.

You can't convince people against what they already know, and you're not always right. I don't know what audience you think you're performing for, but you're not changing anybody's mind.

[Buddy Christ]

[Foggy]

Here I go, I've got a question, Level 4 (Limbo) can only be able to get out of if you die, hence why Saito and Bobb shoot themselves, and why Adrien and Fischer jump off the building. But I guessed that if you died in Limbo you woke up in real life (because of Saito and Cobb) but Adrien and Fischer only wake up in the next level. Is this because Level 4 isn't actually Limbo, just another level or dream, and when Cobb dies in that Level he goes to Limbo which is where Saito is at, and is old? Or is it because Adrien and Fischer still know they are in Limbo, so they can just rise to the next level?

I'm want to swing more with the first answer, but if that is true, why does Fischer end up in Cobb's dream, or if it's Limbo, how come Fischer still aware he is dreaming. I can't remember if Fischer is hooked up to the dream machine when he is shot in Level 3, as I have only seen it once and it was back on 16th July. I'm hopefully watching it for the second time tomorrow.

[Buddy Christ]

I must say that because Nolan wanted to create ambiguity in the final act, it seems as if we spent 1+ hours understanding the rules then in order to create the "ambiguity" he changes the rules. When Arthur says to Ariadne something like "Notice how Cobb never follows his own rules?" I think that statement sums up what Nolan wanted us to do.....talk about his film at nauseam.

[Buddy Christ]

I can now safely say that Fischer is never hooked up to the dream machine, and that he is clearly hooked up to the defribilator during the movie. We see Cobb and Ariadne hooking themselves up, and they lie down a distance away from Fischer. Also, there is one single shot when Eams comes back from setting the charges and he sees Fischer's body, and there is just a shot of Fisher and you do not see him hooked up to the dream machine.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by Buddy Christ

I must say that because Nolan wanted to create ambiguity in the final act, it seems as if we spent 1+ hours understanding the rules then in order to create the "ambiguity" he changes the rules. When Arthur says to Ariadne something like "Notice how Cobb never follows his own rules?" I think that statement sums up what Nolan wanted us to do.....talk about his film at nauseam.

I don't think it was so much because he wanted us to talk about his film. I think it was because he wanted to mirror the experience of dreaming. When you're in a dream, it doesn't seem like any rules are really being broken. It's only when you wake up and reflect on the dream that you realize anything was out of the ordinary. It's the same effect with watching Inception. On your initial viewing, all of these rules are being explained and for the most part, they seem to make sense as the plot moves along. Then the ambiguous ending hits causing you to reflect more on what you watched and you realize a lot of things either don't quite make sense or are more ambiguous than they seemed.

[Foggy]

What's the difference between the defribilator and the Dream Machine, I can't remeber what the Defribilator is

[Buddy Christ]

Originally Posted by Foggy

What's the difference between the defribilator and the Dream Machine, I can't remeber what the Defribilator is

A defibrillator is a medical device that sends electricity to the heart to "jump start" it.
Also see John Gauge and Roy Desoto ftw

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by Buddy Christ

A defibrillator is a medical device that sends electricity to the heart to "jump start" it.
Also see John Gauge and Roy Desoto ftw

So then that ruins everything I was saying, how does he end up in Cobb's dream (if it is one) or how does he still remember who he is if it was Limbo.

[Buddy Christ]

Originally Posted by Foggy

So then that ruins everything I was saying, how does he end up in Cobb's dream (if it is one) or how does he still remember who he is if it was Limbo.

The final act never includes "Cobbs' dreams. There is speculation as to whether level 5 (see chart above) is Limbo or dream level. But when Fischer dies in level 4 (fortress) he goes into limbo (as stated when Saito is first shot in level 2) where Cobb and Ariadne go to get him via heavier sedation a la dream machine. As stated in the planning session if you keep going down to deeper levels WITHOUT construction you end up in limbo, or the other way you get there is death while HEAVY in sedation.

Death in limbo = out
Death in created dream space = limbo

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Buddy Christ

I can now safely say that Fischer is never hooked up to the dream machine, and that he is clearly hooked up to the defribilator during the movie. We see Cobb and Ariadne hooking themselves up, and they lie down a distance away from Fischer. Also, there is one single shot when Eams comes back from setting the charges and he sees Fischer's body, and there is just a shot of Fisher and you do not see him hooked up to the dream machine.

Well, then Nolan missed a detail that unravels the entire structure he established with the film by missing that little detail. So, according to your theory along with this detail, Ariadne & Fischer should wake up in the plane after jumping off of the building and not wake up in the hospital/fortress level to ride the kick ladder back. Cobb should also wake up in the plane and not be able to continue on to find Saito. With your theory, everything from the moment Fischer is thrown off of the building onwards is utter craptastic within the contstruct of Nolan's conceptualization.

I really wish that the Blu-ray was available so that I could actually analyze that scene frame by frame for myself. I'm going to see the film twice this weekend and I'll be paying very close attention to that. If Buddy Christ is right about that detail, this film will fall from being easily one of the best films I've ever seen to just being good enough to recommend as a second viewing only.

[Marcus Wright]

Do you guys think that we might get a special feature explaining what was actually happening in the movie when blu ray is released?

[Buddy Christ]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Well, then Nolan missed a detail that unravels the entire structure he established with the film by missing that little detail. So, according to your theory along with this detail, Ariadne & Fischer should wake up in the plane after jumping off of the building and not wake up in the hospital/fortress level to ride the kick ladder back. Cobb should also wake up in the plane and not be able to continue on to find Saito. With your theory, everything from the moment Fischer is thrown off of the building onwards is utter craptastic within the contstruct of Nolan's conceptualization.

I really wish that the Blu-ray was available so that I could actually analyze that scene frame by frame for myself. I'm going to see the film twice this weekend and I'll be paying very close attention to that. If Buddy Christ is right about that detail, this film will fall from being easily one of the best films I've ever seen to just being good enough to recommend as a second viewing only.

Really? That one fact[oid] will change your view of this awesome movie? I am sorry bro. You are a very smart fellow and I might be wrong (being right is over rated) but that silly fact should not affect your opinion of this movie.

Nolan did not "miss" anything. It took him 8 years to write. It is his movie to do what HE wants. Just cause it does not fulfill your needs is no reason to discount him.

[Buddy Christ]

Originally Posted by Marcus Wright

Do you guys think that we might get a special feature explaining what was actually happening in the movie when blu ray is released?

No

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Buddy Christ

Really? That one fact[oid] will change your view of this awesome movie? I am sorry bro. You are a very smart fellow and I might be wrong (being right is over rated) but that silly fact should not affect your opinion of this movie.

Nolan did not "miss" anything. It took him 8 years to write. It is his movie to do what HE wants. Just cause it does not fulfill your needs is no reason to discount him.

Don't get me wrong. It's still a great film in any instance. I just find that little detail creates several galaxy sized plot holes for me that knock it off the pristine pedestal. I'll still buy it for my collection (even a steelbook if available), but I won't be able to "talk it up" like I have been previously. That little detail changes the established nature of what SHOULD happen. It shatters my ability to suspend disbelief for the plot points after that particular moment.

[Buddy Christ]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Don't get me wrong. It's still a great film in any instance. I just find that little detail creates several galaxy sized plot holes for me that knock it off the pristine pedestal. I'll still buy it for my collection (even a steelbook if available), but I won't be able to "talk it up" like I have been previously. That little detail changes the established nature of what SHOULD happen. It shatters my ability to suspend disbelief for the plot points after that particular moment.

Fair enough

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Well, then Nolan missed a detail that unravels the entire structure he established with the film by missing that little detail. So, according to your theory along with this detail, Ariadne & Fischer should wake up in the plane after jumping off of the building and not wake up in the hospital/fortress level to ride the kick ladder back. Cobb should also wake up in the plane and not be able to continue on to find Saito. With your theory, everything from the moment Fischer is thrown off of the building onwards is utter craptastic within the contstruct of Nolan's conceptualization.

I really wish that the Blu-ray was available so that I could actually analyze that scene frame by frame for myself. I'm going to see the film twice this weekend and I'll be paying very close attention to that. If Buddy Christ is right about that detail, this film will fall from being easily one of the best films I've ever seen to just being good enough to recommend as a second viewing only.

The only person spinning theories is you, those were your terms of debate. You've been disputed on facts as they are presented in the film, and you have responded with voluminous theory of your own, and inferred a lot of theory from others (in other words, straw-man argument and putting words in people's mouths). And now you're trying to impose your theories onto the internal logic of the film, and hold the movie at fault because it doesn't line-up to your theories. You have actually moved on from saying we are wrong, to saying that Nolan is wrong about his own movie! Unbelievable!

Originally Posted by Buddy Christ

Really? That one fact[oid] will change your view of this awesome movie? ... that silly fact should not affect your opinion of this movie.

Nolan did not "miss" anything. It took him 8 years to write. It is his movie to do what HE wants. Just cause it does not fulfill your needs is no reason to discount him.

Word and +1. Why fault Nolan for the fact that you misinterpreted what you saw? It's not his fault you embarrassed yourself by getting over-invested on the wrong side of an argument.

[Buddy Christ]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

The only person spinning theories is you, those were your terms of debate. You've been disputed on facts as they are presented in the film, and you have responded with voluminous theory of your own, and inferred a lot of theory from others (in other words, straw-man argument and putting words in people's mouths). And now you're trying to impose your theories onto the internal logic of the film, and hold the movie at fault because it doesn't line-up to your theories.



Word and +1. Why fault Nolan for the fact that you misinterpreted what you saw? It's not his fault you embarrassed yourself by getting over-invested on the wrong side of an argument.

Nice edit

[Buddy Christ]

Just realized that whomevers dream it is, they stay back.

Yuseffs dream, he stays in the Van.
Arthurs dream, he stays in the hotel
Eams dream, he stays and places the charges at the fortress.



Nice to see they take ownership of there dreams