INCEPTION Review Thread (SPOILERS!!)

[menaceuk]

Originally Posted by Josh

But if there is no difference between placing a top on its side, and the top falling after it has been spun, then why would Cobb have to spin the top in her safe? The act of spinning the top must have done something, and if so, then the lack of spinning must have also had an affect. What affect did the lack of spinning (laying the top on its side) have?

Well this is all part of the inception.

Remember Cobb saying " She once knew something and chose to forget" or some thing similar.

Spinning the Top was Inception

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Josh

But if there is no difference between placing a top on its side, and the top falling after it has been spun, then why would Cobb have to spin the top in her safe? The act of spinning the top must have done something, and if so, then the lack of spinning must have also had an affect. What affect did the lack of spinning (laying the top on its side) have?

The spinning of the top was required by Cobb in order to make Mal acknowledge the truth. She was in denial.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Josh

But if there is no difference between placing a top on its side, and the top falling after it has been spun, then why would Cobb have to spin the top in her safe? The act of spinning the top must have done something, and if so, then the lack of spinning must have also had an affect. What affect did the lack of spinning (laying the top on its side) have?

He spun the top inside the safe to plant the idea that their world was not real, he corrupted her totem and used it against her so she would escape with him to the real world, inception didn't wear off then though.

[Josh]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

He spun the top inside the safe to plant the idea that their world was not real, he corrupted her totem and used it against her so she would escape with him to the real world, inception didn't wear off then though.

Exactly. Her totum was corrupted, so can we truely know that, in the beginning when he spins the totum, it falls, and he doesn't shoot himself (indicating reality), that is truely reality? Does the totum do a third action in reality, and falling is just a corrupted response?

The more I read about it, the more the ring theory stands up. But damn if Nolan's interviews don't push you in different directions. Its as if he's dropping hints, but the ring theory says he isn't. Agh!

[menaceuk]

Originally Posted by Josh

Exactly. Her totum was corrupted, so can we truely know that, in the beginning when he spins the totum, it falls, and he doesn't shoot himself (indicating reality), that is truely reality? Does the totum do a third action in reality, and falling is just a corrupted response?

The more I read about it, the more the ring theory stands up. But damn if Nolan's interviews don't push you in different directions. Its as if he's dropping hints, but the ring theory says he isn't. Agh!

I don't think you can Corrupt the Totem.The precautions over keeping to yourself are the result of Cobb's inception to Mal.

Would be fairly easy to add weight to a chess piece for example so it didn't fall in reality to give the owner the idea she/he was dreaming

[Jumpman]

I wouldn't say Cobb corrupted Mal's totem. Again, Mal came up with the concept of the totem.

For her, if her top spun and never toppled, she was dreaming. But because she got lost within the reality of the dream, she lost sight of what was real and what wasn't.

When Cobb breaks in the deepest parts of her mind and finds the locked away truth, he spins it to remind her of what's real and what's a dream.

Her totem, whether in the hands of Cobb or Mal, still worked the same way. I know that in the film, it's specifically stated that another person can't know the another's specifics of their own respective totem, but in the case of Mal and Cobb, I think it's different.

It's his reminder of her. It's a reminder of what he did to her. It's a sign of the guilt he carries. In that sense, I don't think he would want to corrupt Mal's totem just for the simple fact of what it represents in his life.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Josh

Exactly. Her totum was corrupted, so can we truely know that, in the beginning when he spins the totum, it falls, and he doesn't shoot himself (indicating reality), that is truely reality? Does the totum do a third action in reality, and falling is just a corrupted response?

The more I read about it, the more the ring theory stands up. But damn if Nolan's interviews don't push you in different directions. Its as if he's dropping hints, but the ring theory says he isn't. Agh!

Well if you remember in that memory about their anniversary, he finds her totem by a broken wine glass on the floor, that would suggest that they were awake when she

[Show spoiler]committed suicide.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Jumpman

I wouldn't say Cobb corrupted Mal's totem. Again, Mal came up with the concept of the totem.

For her, if her top spun and never toppled, she was dreaming. But because she got lost within the reality of the dream, she lost sight of what was real and what wasn't.

When Cobb breaks in the deepest parts of her mind and finds the locked away truth, he spins it to remind her of what's real and what's a dream.

Her totem, whether in the hands of Cobb or Mal, still worked the same way. I know that in the film, it's specifically stated that another person can't know the another's specifics of their own respective totem, but in the case of Mal and Cobb, I think it's different.

It's his reminder of her. It's a reminder of what he did to her. It's a sign of the guilt he carries. In that sense, I don't think he would want to corrupt Mal's totem just for the simple fact of what it represents in his life.

Exactly! In a dream state, the totem will still spin indefinitely no matter who spins it. In reality, it still falls victim to the laws of physics.

As for Cobb using the totem for himself as his own totem? That's a unique situation all its own due to the fact that he didn't start using it as his own until after Mal was dead. The reason that Arthur teaches Ariadne about the rule of not letting anyone else know the specifics to anyone else's totem stems directly from Cobb's experience with Mal. It isn't referenced specifically, but I'm under the impression that the rule about keeping your totem as personal as possible came after Mal died. Cobb realized how dangerous it can be to have someone potentially mess with your totem even in the slightest fashion and made it a rule without telling them exactly how he came to that conclusion.

[Josh]

I think I'm ready to agree with everyone that there was a reality portrayed, and that Cobb really did get hired to implant an idea, and that his team really did exist. In interviews, Nolan describes the Mal character as a Femme Fatale and the need for reality and the dream world to have some similarities (with specific examples being Cobb being chances by a nameless/faceless organizatoin). Both of those point me in the direction of accepting the fact that we are shown a reality where Cobb exists outside of his dream world. That sort of downplays the importance of other characters, but if that is what it is, then so be it.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Josh

Exactly. Her totum was corrupted, so can we truely know that, in the beginning when he spins the totum, it falls, and he doesn't shoot himself (indicating reality), that is truely reality? Does the totum do a third action in reality, and falling is just a corrupted response?

The more I read about it, the more the ring theory stands up. But damn if Nolan's interviews don't push you in different directions. Its as if he's dropping hints, but the ring theory says he isn't. Agh!

If that is the case and the top falling is a corrupted response, then the top would have fallen in the safe after Cobb spun it to incept Mal... which means that it would not have enlightened her... which means that Mal would have stayed in limbo forever... which means Cobb would have stayed with her... which means we wouldn't have such a great film to argue about.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Exactly! In a dream state, the totem will still spin indefinitely no matter who spins it. In reality, it still falls victim to the laws of physics.

As for Cobb using the totem for himself as his own totem? That's a unique situation all its own due to the fact that he didn't start using it as his own until after Mal was dead. The reason that Arthur teaches Ariadne about the rule of not letting anyone else know the specifics to anyone else's totem stems directly from Cobb's experience with Mal. It isn't referenced specifically, but I'm under the impression that the rule about keeping your totem as personal as possible came after Mal died. Cobb realized how dangerous it can be to have someone potentially mess with your totem even in the slightest fashion and made it a rule without telling them exactly how he came to that conclusion.

Arthur still figured it out on his own though I think, he even realized what Cobb did to Mal, maybe he was friends with them before she died. They act like the guy has no imagination but going by what you see throughout the movie I'd say he has plenty of imagination.

[Jumpman]

What about the idea that this is one big, long con therapy session constructed by Michael Caine's character?

The only reason I purpose this theory is because of how specific his scenes are and how they're shot and edited. On top of that, think about SPECIFICALLY what Ariadne does through out the entire film.

In my opinion, she's Miles' extractor for this particular assignment....

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Jumpman

What about the idea that this is one big, long con therapy session constructed by Michael Caine's character?

The only reason I purpose this theory is because of how specific his scenes are and how they're shot and edited. On top of that, think about SPECIFICALLY what Ariadne does through out the entire film.

In my opinion, she's Miles' extractor for this particular assignment....

If Ariadne was that good and well-trained, she wouldn't have needed all those training sessions before they go after Fischer, not to mention she probably would've known more about Mal, can't really hide all of that in your subconscious.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Josh

I think I'm ready to agree with everyone that there was a reality portrayed, and that Cobb really did get hired to implant an idea, and that his team really did exist. In interviews, Nolan describes the Mal character as a Femme Fatale and the need for reality and the dream world to have some similarities (with specific examples being Cobb being chances by a nameless/faceless organizatoin). Both of those point me in the direction of accepting the fact that we are shown a reality where Cobb exists outside of his dream world. That sort of downplays the importance of other characters, but if that is what it is, then so be it.

Plus, Nolan's work is always meant to be so poignant. If it was all a dream from start to finish, then the entire thing is completely and utterly pointless in design, concept, execution, analysis, etc. Nolan is not that shallow about his ideas.

[Jumpman]

Gandalf,

What if I purposed the idea that Ariadne is in fact Miles...that he's a forger.

[Josh]

Originally Posted by Jumpman

What about the idea that this is one big, long con therapy session constructed by Michael Caine's character?

The only reason I purpose this theory is because of how specific his scenes are and how they're shot and edited. On top of that, think about SPECIFICALLY what Ariadne does through out the entire film.

In my opinion, she's Miles' extractor for this particular assignment....

I have this feeling as well, but the "wedding ring theory" goes against that. Some part of me wants to believe that the emotion of actually seeing his children was the "kick" that awoke him from his dream. But then, many other parts of the film have to be discredited, and that is a much harder task.

[Jumpman]

Petra,

I'm not sure I entirely agree with your last post because whether it's a dream or not is beside the point. The point is that Dom doesn't care. He's let go of that guilt and forgiven himself.

It matters not that it's a dream or real. What matters is that his mind is clear to face his children again...that's the whole point of Cobb's journey.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Jumpman

Gandalf,

What if I purposed the idea that Ariadne is in fact Miles...that he's a forger.

Like was said above, if the whole movie is just a dream and I'm 100% sure it wasn't, then there was really no point to the movie. I don't think you can dream all the stuff that happened to them anyway, not explaining this very well. That I'm watching the movie right this moment probably doesn't help.

[Jumpman]

Josh,

My whole thing with Miles is his dialogue scene with Cobb in the classroom. It's too specific. Plus, how does he know to pick up Cobb from the airport? Cobb tells him to give the presents to the kids when he gets a chance to go and see them in the states. That just so happens to be the same time that Cobb finishes this job.

Not to mention the one shot at the very end of the film after Cobb is reunited with his children...Caine gives a very subtle smile and EXITS stage left.

For the life of me, that shot is way too specific to just be a simple shot. It's freaking Michael Caine.

[Josh]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

If Ariadne was that good and well-trained, she wouldn't have needed all those training sessions before they go after Fischer, not to mention she probably would've known more about Mal, can't really hide all of that in your subconscious.

She may not of needed them, but it would have been necessary for her to need training if she had never done it before - which was implied by Milies. Remember she was a "fast learner".

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Plus, Nolan's work is always meant to be so poignant. If it was all a dream from start to finish, then the entire thing is completely and utterly pointless in design, concept, execution, analysis, etc. Nolan is not that shallow about his ideas.

I feel that by presenting a reality and dream world separate, the act of showing the top spinning at the end is a shallow attempt to pull the audience away from a theory that you have been perpetuating for 2+ hours in 10 seconds. That feels cheap to me, now. Why not just show the top fall and conclude what you have been driving towards for 2+ hours? Its like being led down a long road with no exists, only to come to a fork at the very end, right before the destation.