Rear Channel Help!

[PointZero]

Hey all, so I've been lurking here for a long time and I've finally decide to come out of the woodwork. Before I get started though I'd like to thank crazyBLUE and BigDaddy for their incredibly informative posts, they've really helped me out.

So onto the question: I recently purchased a Yamaha HTR6295 that I am incredibly happy with, as well as 2 Polk Rti10's for my fronts. I've settled on either a Polk CsiA4 or A6 for my center, but the rear speakers present a difficult challenge. The room that my gear is situated makes it extremely difficult for me from effectively wall mounting bookshelf speakers, and stands are less than ideal. So I was wondering, what are your opinions on in roof speakers for my rears? Specifically Polk RC60i's, TCi60i's, and SC50i's. Wiring through the roof is not difficult for me as the ceiling is a false ceiling. Also, since it is a false ceiling would that affect acoustics?

And while this is the inappropriate forum for it, what are your opinions of the Velodyne DLS3750/4000 vs a Lava sub? I'm looking for something that is crisper and more accurate, rather than loud and boomy. I'd like to get an SVS sub but those are rather pricey.

Thanks in advance for all your help!

PointZero

[jomari]

what am i chopped liver!?!?

first off, welcome to the foray! a lot of lurkers, but a few would actually join in and have a blast learning, teaching, and well, just hanging out! we hope you stick around a bit more.

now, on to the matter... i will break up your questions in sections if you dont mind...

So onto the question: I recently purchased a Yamaha HTR6295 that I am incredibly happy with, as well as 2 Polk Rti10's for my fronts. I've settled on either a Polk CsiA4 or A6 for my center, but the rear speakers present a difficult challenge.

quick questions
1. have you bought the gear yet?
2. if not, then redirect most of the funding towards the fronts, and invest in a better soundstage. set aside the budget for the rears in the near future if ever...
3. do you have any existing equipment right now? AVR, speakers etc. you can use these as your surrounds for example, until the need to get them later on. i personally have been eyeing some bipole def techs as of late, via vanns.com....not bad for a pair at 149 clams... bp1-2x

The room that my gear is situated makes it extremely difficult for me from effectively wall mounting bookshelf speakers, and stands are less than ideal. So I was wondering, what are your opinions on in roof speakers for my rears? Specifically Polk RC60i's, TCi60i's, and SC50i's.

1. need room dimensions, including height and a tad of detail regarding seating area (away from wall, pushed back into the wall etc)
2. can we get a glipse via the HT gallery? i mention the gallery section due to work filters sometimes dont let me see stuff.

Wiring through the roof is not difficult for me as the ceiling is a false ceiling. Also, since it is a false ceiling would that affect acoustics?

it depends, basically pictures can help me make recommendations, but it also helps me figure out if the false ceiling can handle such weight as well... kinda difficult to know what we're diagnosing here, thus the room detail if you please.

And while this is the inappropriate forum for it, what are your opinions of the Velodyne DLS3750/4000 vs a Lava sub? I'm looking for something that is crisper and more accurate, rather than loud and boomy. I'd like to get an SVS sub but those are rather pricey.

hmm. subs are one of the things that a lot of people have to learn the hard way about. they end up getting cheaper inexpensive subs, then after a year or so, end up 'upgrading' to mid-level. thus the money spend on the first sub is already lost.

i personally believe that you should start mid-level to avoid that 'upgrade cost' you have from the initial inexpensive sub. it really depends on what you want and what you need. in essence, we all have a budget to work with, but to think in the long run helps essentially.

i too, was looking at the lava sub, and its making me itch, thanks to big daddy. albeit the velodynes are great performers, internet direct companies have been making an impact on the forums for years now.

heres a review on the velodyne...

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...er-8-2004.html


whats the budget, and again, depending on how big the room is, would determine what we can suggest.

sorry, i have to get back to work now...

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by PointZero

Hey all, so I've been lurking here for a long time and I've finally decide to come out of the woodwork. Before I get started though I'd like to thank crazyBLUE and BigDaddy for their incredibly informative posts, they've really helped me out.

So onto the question: I recently purchased a Yamaha HTR6295 that I am incredibly happy with, as well as 2 Polk Rti10's for my fronts. I've settled on either a Polk CsiA4 or A6 for my center, but the rear speakers present a difficult challenge. The room that my gear is situated makes it extremely difficult for me from effectively wall mounting bookshelf speakers, and stands are less than ideal. So I was wondering, what are your opinions on in roof speakers for my rears? Specifically Polk RC60i's, TCi60i's, and SC50i's. Wiring through the roof is not difficult for me as the ceiling is a false ceiling. Also, since it is a false ceiling would that affect acoustics?

And while this is the inappropriate forum for it, what are your opinions of the Velodyne DLS3750/4000 vs a Lava sub? I'm looking for something that is crisper and more accurate, rather than loud and boomy. I'd like to get an SVS sub but those are rather pricey.

Thanks in advance for all your help!

PointZero

As Jomari said, the front speakers are much more important than the rear speakers. I have summarize my recommendations in the following:

1. In-ceiling speakers can work for surround speakers. However, even the best in-wall or in-ceiling speakers may not give the same results as good regular cabinet speakers.
2. Yes, all speakers, including in-ceiling, speakers will interact with the walls and other objects in the room. With regular cabinet speakers, you have some flexibility in moving them around and use wall treatment behind the speakers and at the points of early reflections. With in-wall and in-ceiling, you do not have as much flexibility.
3. It is possible to attach regular surround speakers to the ceiling with angled brackets from Home Depot/Lowes. That is what I have done to a couple of my surround speakers. You can even use chains and attach the speakers to the ceiling like chandeliers.
4. Remember that surround speakers do not need to be from the same company as the front speakers. Timbre matching is more important for the front 3 speakers.
5. Velodyne has been around for a long time. They make many different models of subwoofers and they are excellent. Lava is newer company. They make only 3 models. The subs appear to be very good and are reasonably priced.

[PointZero]

First off, I definitely do plan on sticking around! From what I've seen its a very solid community here. And sorry I didn't cite you, there are just too many good posts in the HT section

quick questions
1. have you bought the gear yet?
2. if not, then redirect most of the funding towards the fronts, and invest in a better soundstage. set aside the budget for the rears in the near future if ever...
3. do you have any existing equipment right now? AVR, speakers etc. you can use these as your surrounds for example, until the need to get them later on. i personally have been eyeing some bipole def techs as of late, via vanns.com....not bad for a pair at 149 clams...

To answer your question, I've only bought the receiver and the two RTi10's, but I'm probably gonna go with the A6 as a center since I do watch very dialog heavy movies.

1. need room dimensions, including height and a tad of detail regarding seating area (away from wall, pushed back into the wall etc)
2. can we get a glipse via the HT gallery? i mention the gallery section due to work filters sometimes dont let me see stuff.

I'll work on getting some gallery pics up soon, but in the meantime I'll try and describe it best I can. The room is ~7ft high, ~19ft deep and ~13ft wide. However, this is only one length of an L shaped room, so the rear of the room has no wall on the right side of the viewing area for about ~10ft. Not the best of descriptions, I know, but I'll try and update with pictures of the room and ceiling soon.

And since I dont know how to quote multiple posts, I'll just respond here to Big Daddy.

Yes, I would much rather have bookshelf speakers than in wall/ceiling. I actually had not thought of Home Depot, so I'll have to check them out. And the idea of hanging the speakers as chandeliers is enticing, but I'm a tall guy and that might cause problems haha. Also, I didn't realize that the backs could be different, as a lot of people seem to go with one brand for every channel besides the sub.

Lastly about the sub, it seems Lava does indeed ship to Canada which is good, but I'm wondering if the stats they show on their info sheet for the sub are legit? If they are it seems that this sub blows comparable models out of the water.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by PointZero

And since I dont know how to quote multiple posts, I'll just respond here to Big Daddy.

Yes, I would much rather have bookshelf speakers than in wall/ceiling. I actually had not thought of Home Depot, so I'll have to check them out. And the idea of hanging the speakers as chandeliers is enticing, but I'm a tall guy and that might cause problems haha. Also, I didn't realize that the backs could be different, as a lot of people seem to go with one brand for every channel besides the sub.

Lastly about the sub, it seems Lava does indeed ship to Canada which is good, but I'm wondering if the stats they show on their info sheet for the sub are legit? If they are it seems that this sub blows comparable models out of the water.

The nice thing about chains is that you can cut their lengths so that the speakers don't interfere with your head. The white angled brackets come in different sizes. You can attach one side to the ceiling and the other side to the back of the speakers. They are only a few dollars. You can see a partial view of the angled bracket that I used to attach one of the PSB surround speakers to the ceiling in the following picture:

PSBSurround.jpg

I have seen a few preliminarly reviews from users of Lava Subs. They appear to be legit.

[Big Daddy]

To multi-quote, you have to click on the icon on the bottom right that has two quatation marks and a plus ''+ for all the posts that you want to quote.

[PointZero]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

The nice thing about chains is that you can cut their lengths so that the speakers don't interfere with your head. The white angled brackets come in different sizes. You can attach one side to the ceiling and the other side to the back of the speakers. They are only a few dollars. You can see a partial view of the angled bracket that I used to attach one of the PSB surround speakers to the ceiling in the following picture:

Attachment 28822

I have seen a few preliminarly reviews from users of Lava Subs. They appear to be legit.

So you're using a bracket like this one? http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/s...k=P_PartNumber

And do you just screw it into the back of the speakers? Does that cause any problems with the bookshelf if I took the bracket off at a later date?

And I may just take home a Velodyne for a test drive, as they are a more tried and true name than Lava.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by PointZero

So you're using a bracket like this one? http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/s...k=P_PartNumber

And do you just screw it into the back of the speakers? Does that cause any problems with the bookshelf if I took the bracket off at a later date?

And I may just take home a Velodyne for a test drive, as they are a more tried and true name than Lava.

It is more like this without the closet rod hook.

http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/s...k=P_PartNumber

I did not screw it to the speaker cabinet. The speaker already had a little bracket attached to it for wall mounting. I attached the bracket from Home Depot to that with a screw and nut.

CadenceSpeaker.jpg

In the past, I have a attached brackets to speaker cabinets that did not have any kind of wall mouting. Use small screws and you should be ok. Normaly the MDF wood used to build most speakers and subwoofers is about 3/4 of an inch. Even if the screw goes through the cabinet, you should be ok. Many screws that are used to attach the drivers to the cabinet go through the wood.

Incidentally, those beautiful piano finish Cadence Speakers are only $160 a pair and free shipping.

http://www.cadencehometheaterspeaker...2&idcategory=4

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

It is more like this without the closet rod hook.

http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/s...k=P_PartNumber

I did not screw it to the speaker cabinet. The speaker already had a little bracket attached to it for wall mounting. I attached the bracket from Home Depot to that with a screw and nut.

Attachment 28823

In the past, I have a attached brackets to speaker cabinets that did not have any kind of wall mouting. Use small screws and you should be ok. Normaly the MDF wood used to build most speakers and subwoofers is about 3/4 of an inch. Even if the screw goes through the cabinet, you should be ok. Many screws that are used to attach the drivers to the cabinet go through the wood.

Incidentally, those beautiful piano finish Cadence Speakers are only $160 a pair and free shipping.

http://www.cadencehometheaterspeaker...2&idcategory=4

Big Daddy ~ the Cadence speaker you show is what you are using as your front height speakers - Am I correct ?

And do you think there would be sound issues if they were mounted at a 45 degree angle ? Meaning the top of the speaker mounted to the ceiling & the bottom of the speaker mounted on the wall. also angled towards the center seating/sweet spot....

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by crazyBLUE

Big Daddy ~ the Cadence speaker you show is what you are using as your front height speakers - Am I correct ?

And do you think there would be sound issues if they were mounted at a 45 degree angle ? Meaning the top of the speaker mounted to the ceiling & the bottom of the speaker mounted on the wall. also angled towards the center seating/sweet spot....

Yes, I use the Cadence speakers as front height speakers.

If you toe the speakers a little toward your main listening area, you should be ok, but turning them at a 45 degree angle will affect the sound negatively like some of the problems we have with horizontal center channel speakers.

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Yes, I use the Cadence speakers as front height speakers.

If you toe the speakers a little toward your main listening area, you should be ok, but turning them at a 45 degree angle will affect the sound negatively like some of the problems we have with horizontal center channel speakers.

Thanks for the input Big D.

Do they have to be directly above the front towers or can I put them about 18 inches to the sides using the wall to secure them ?

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by crazyBLUE

Thanks for the input Big D.

Do they have to be directly above the front towers or can I put them about 18 inches to the sides using the wall to secure them ?

Dolby PLIIz only supports Height speakers. In their diagram, they are placed above the right and the left front speakers.

Audyssey DSX supports both Height and Width speakers. The Width speakers are placed approximately at the same height as the front speakers, but much wider.

The Dolby diagram is in post #1 of https://forum.blu-ray.com/audio-theo...io-codecs.html thread.

Audyssey DSX diagrams are in post #144:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/3212548-post144.html

I invented a new codec and called it Big Daddy PLIII. It is a combination of height/width channel.

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Dolby PLIIz only supports Height speakers. In their diagram, they are placed above the right and the left front speakers.

Audyssey DSX supports both Height and Width speakers. The Width speakers are placed approximately at the same height as the front speakers, but much wider.

The Dolby diagram is in post #1 of https://forum.blu-ray.com/audio-theo...io-codecs.html thread.

Audyssey DSX diagrams are in post #144:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/3212548-post144.html

I invented a new codec and called it Big Daddy PLIII. It is a combination of height/width channel.

Well I can't put them directly above because of the screen. I could put them on either side of the screen which would have them about 4-5 inches off center to the towers.

[PointZero]

So just thought i'd let you guys know, I ended up taking the plunge and buying the Polk CSiA6 and the Velodyne DLS 4000. I EXTREMELY pleased with the 4000, its providing just the level of bass i desired. Tested the new stuff out with a couple scenes from Iron Man and Black Hawk Down.

I also picked up Polk Rti4's for a song, but haven't yet set them up. I have a few ideas about mounting the rears which i'll share with you guys should I find what i'm thinking of on Home Depot's website.

In any case, i'd like to give a big thank you to everyone who helped me out, and i'll be sure to keep you updated!

PointZero

[GAWD]

Originally Posted by PointZero

So just thought i'd let you guys know, I ended up taking the plunge and buying the Polk CSiA6 and the Velodyne DLS 4000. I EXTREMELY pleased with the 4000, its providing just the level of bass i desired. Tested the new stuff out with a couple scenes from Iron Man and Black Hawk Down.

I also picked up Polk Rti4's for a song, but haven't yet set them up. I have a few ideas about mounting the rears which i'll share with you guys should I find what i'm thinking of on Home Depot's website.

In any case, i'd like to give a big thank you to everyone who helped me out, and i'll be sure to keep you updated!

PointZero

If you paid that Velo full price i'd honestly return it. They always go on sale at some point. i can't say when but frequently enough. If you're in a rush and or didn't pay it full price keep it and glad to see you're enjoying it :-)

[Fors*]

In my gallery, you can see how I used chains to hang my single rear speaker from the ceiling....or like a chandelier as BD put it.

[PointZero]

Originally Posted by GAWD

If you paid that Velo full price i'd honestly return it. They always go on sale at some point. i can't say when but frequently enough. If you're in a rush and or didn't pay it full price keep it and glad to see you're enjoying it :-)

I'm not in a hurry, but I certainly didn't pay the full 750 for the sub. Got it for around 400, which from what I can gather is a steal. And I certainly am enjoying it! I truly had no idea the difference a subwoofer made.

Originally Posted by Fors*

In my gallery, you can see how I used chains to hang my single rear speaker from the ceiling....or like a chandelier as BD put it.

Wow great gallery Fors*! That LOTR wall is unreal. So you're only using the one chain and short screws in the speaker? How deep is the anchor into your ceiling?

And I've also been debating returning my Rti4's (still haven't opened them) for a set of FXiA4's. Any thoughts on this regarding the difference in quality? ONe reason for this is that the FX's seem to have a much stronger mounting bracket on the back than the RTi's.

PointZero

[GAWD]

Originally Posted by PointZero

I'm not in a hurry, but I certainly didn't pay the full 750 for the sub. Got it for around 400, which from what I can gather is a steal. And I certainly am enjoying it! I truly had no idea the difference a subwoofer made.

Exactly the price you should have paid Those subs for 400$ are AMAZING!!!