Batman Beyond: The Return of the Joker!

[Bird Boy]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

The World's Finest admin who originally posted the terrible mock-up over at toonzone made a post in response to the cacophony we made over here.

Hello, tis I the terrible mock-up maker. Just wanted to clarify a few things rather than bouncing posts back and forth between forums.

Of first note the mock-up I made was never intended to represent the animation in the center of the image. It was merely a mock-up to show what, if what WHV was telling us was correct, the black borders around the animation would look like. In the post with said terrible mock-up I even denoted:

"The animation quality is in no way reflective of what the actual Blu-ray will look like; I expect that what animation we get out of that black abyss will look great."

Now, moving on:

Originally Posted by Afrobean

Of special note:

He misuses the word "print" to refer to a HD raw master. There probably isn't a "print" of this movie in 4:3 and uncut. If it was ever printed for theatrical exhibition anywhere, it almost definitely would have been done in 1.85:1.

Yes, I did misuse the word in a way that a lot of people refer to their computers as CPUs. The wording was incorrect but the intent was the same--I was referring to whatever copy of this film WHV has on file that may exist in high definition.

Originally Posted by Afrobean

He re-iterates the idea that they would use the DVD encode. He didn't seem to understand how laughable it is that they would use a 480i encode. No matter how this thing were to be released, they would definitely go back and use a MASTER rather than using an already-prepared DVD encode.

Actually I didn't. I even said "in that case there's no way they'd use that because...well, then it'd look exactly like the image I mocked up and I don't care how loopy we think WHV is, we will not end up with a 1080p image that was upscaled from a 480i source."

Basically I love the hell out of this movie and was the main reason I even got involved in The World's Finest to begin with. I know the films history. I know the uncut version never made it to DVD in 4x3 that wasn't letterboxed. This was my basis for believing that WHV may not have a non-letterboxed version of the uncut film laying around; I'm not saying it doesn't exist, it just may not have been something WHV had readily available in their vaults as they've only released the edited/cut version of the film in 4x3 1.33:1.

Also because I've been working on this stuff for the past decade or so (a depressing thought), I know how WHV operates with their animated catalog, DC animation in particular. And they aren't always the most careful or knowledgeable about what they're doing.

Originally Posted by Afrobean

He admits that it may have been available in HD on Netflix in 4:3. I don't know why this is so difficult to understand. If it was made to the same technical standards as Justice League season 1 (it was apparently), then why wouldn't there be a HD master at 4:3 around? And why would they not bother to have a 4:3 master of the original version archived?

It's not difficult to understand, I just didn't know it ever appeared on Netflix as I don't have Netflix. And I don't know if ROTJ was made to the same technical standards as JL S1 because ROTJ pre-dates JL S1 by over a year.

You're right, by all logic WHV has all of this in the vault and ready to go. The problem is WHV is not always logical when it comes to lower profile series or releases like this, especially with DC Animation. My logic was based off what WHV told us and that it was 4x3 matted widescreen. Following WHV's own history of using such terminology lead to that mocked up image. When I heard that I basically assumed they had an HD master that was matted and that's what we were going to get.

Originally Posted by Afrobean

He admits that we know what's up when it comes to this stuff, but still thinks it's possible WB will use a 480i DVD encode on this BD release. I don't think the guy understands any of the technical aspects of resolution or the differences between DVD and BD.

I do understand and as I mentioned above, I never believed a 480i transfer would be used. That is both moronic and completely impossible. As you and many others have said, this isn't a "special feature"--this is the main focus of a Blu-ray release, so they aren't going to use anything below a high definition source for the film.

Originally Posted by Afrobean

He claims that WB would just slap together whatever is fastest and cheapest. That's not an entirely incorrect assumption. They are keen on taking the easy way out, as that's an effective way to maximize profits. But what he neglects to notice is that a DVD encode would NEVER fly on Blu-ray. Studios (WB included) have done PLENTY of Blu-rays which use old transfers and old masters, but they are ALWAYS HD. They use the same transfer as previous DVD releases, but they encode them at higher bitrates and in HD. That's something he doesn't seem to realize happens: the picture as it appears on DVD is NOT how it is in the archive masters.

Again, I never thought they'd use a low-resolution transfer and I never did. I'm well aware of how this format works and its history. The issue of how this all started was the back of the box says 4x3 and WHV says widescreen inside of a 4x3 frame. I've absolutely no reason to make any of this up or stretch the truth or embellish it with my own opinions. I never thought the animation would be anything less than HD, I just was unsure of how they were going to frame it.

This is all going off the notion the back of the box isn't wrong; the back of the ROTJ Uncut DVD box was wrong on a few things, so that's why I don't have the greatest faith in their graphics.

Originally Posted by Afrobean

#3: "widescreen" would refer to the encode. Blu-ray supports 16:9 and 4:3 frames. Saying it is "widescreen" is telling us that it'll be encoded at 16:9 with hard "mattes" on the side.

That would make the most sense out of all of this.

As I said in the post you quote, I (as in my opinion) don't believe we'll be screwed over by this release but my experience with WHV in the past says to remain skeptical. I understand your side in that you want to believe the logical outcome of it all and I wholeheartedly want you to be correct, but I can't side definitely with either side because I know WHV is capable of doing very stupid things.

[captveg]

There's no reason to be worried about this. Just trust me.

[J-Syxx]

Hello, tis I the terrible mock-up maker. Just wanted to clarify a few things rather than bouncing posts back and forth between forums.

Of first note the mock-up I made was never intended to represent the animation in the center of the image. It was merely a mock-up to show what, if what WHV was telling us was correct, the black borders around the animation would look like. In the post with said terrible mock-up I even denoted:

"The animation quality is in no way reflective of what the actual Blu-ray will look like; I expect that what animation we get out of that black abyss will look great."

Seems like a great way to spread misinformation. I mean seirously, does anyone else create images based on what they "think" the image of a bluray will look like? It's just ludicrous.

If I was that WB guy or supposed WB guy who gave you that information, I would probalby never talk to you again. All you seemed to was do was completley misinterpret what was said to you without trying to follow up on it, spread completely false information as fact about the release due to your inability properly interpet was was said to you, and comment on the masters of this film as an expert when you didn't even have your information correct at all. In a sense, you were pretty much libeliously trashing it before it even came out, creating negative word of mouth.

And that's assuming your entire source wasn't fabricated, which isn't relaly clear to me either. Whatever the case, there's no way they're going to release it ****ed up on Blu-ray after releasing it perfeclty on Netflix. Not going to happen. So you do have some egg on your face for going out and fabricating this controversy.

[Bird Boy]

Originally Posted by J-Syxx

Seems like a great way to spread misinformation. I mean seirously, does anyone else create images based on what they "think" the image of a bluray will look like? It's just ludicrous.

I don't know, was there ever a reason to before? You're talking about a fan site that's been around for well over a decade and our bread and butter is DC Animation. If we don't eat up every piece of information WHV sends out to us, send questions back about it and then post it on our site/forums then what is the purpose of our existence? Waiting until the products hit shelves and regurgitate the same information every other website has? If there's something to talk about we're going to report and/or talk about it, whether it's on our forum or our website.

Originally Posted by J-Syxx

If I was that WB guy or supposed WB guy who gave you that information, I would probalby never talk to you again. All you seemed to was do was completley misinterpret what was said to you without trying to follow up on it, spread completely false information as fact about the release due to your inability properly interpet was was said to you, and comment on the masters of this film as an expert when you didn't even have your information correct at all. In a sense, you pretty much libeliously trashing it before it even came out, creating negative word of mouth.

I'm not sure that makes sense? How is visually interpreting what WHV told us after we confirmed it with them spreading misinformation? I was spreading what they told us. Regardless if it ends up being the case, in the end what I mocked up was the visual version of the text they sent us. How much more confirmation could we really have done?

And as for WHV not talking to us anymore...how is that in their best interest? We're a direct link to a decent chunk of their audience. We report what they do with DC Animation with more care than any other website out there, them cutting us loose because we copy and pasted something they told us makes zero sense no matter how you cut it.

Will the information we put out there as a result of direct contact with WHV be wrong? In this case I certainly hope that's what happens.

Originally Posted by J-Syxx

And that's assuming your entire source wasn't fabricated, which isn't relaly clear to me either. Whatever the case, there's no way they're going to release it ****ed up on Blu-ray after releasing it perfeclty on Netflix. Not going to happen. So you do have some egg on your face for going out and fabricating this controversy.

Yes, I get it. I'm a no one on the internet claiming to have an "inside source." Look, we've been reviewing DC Animation titles from WHV since 2003. You can look at our site history, how long we've been around, how we interview talent involved with the releases, etc., whatever. Or you can ignore it, whichever you prefer.

In the end we're a fan website dedicated to DC Animation. It's what we do, we live and breathe that stuff. We are by no means in "tight" with anyone at WHV or WB Animation, but we have made acquaintances there over the years who have never led us astray. Do they know all the technical terminology that you guys? I don't know. In the past they accurately told us what JL S2 on DVD was going to look like (another case of matted widescreen in a 4x3 frame) before it hit shelves (and that was another source of annoyance in the fan community since at that point anamorphic transfers were more than then norm).

What it boils down to is logic says the image I made is moronic and we'll get a nice, 1080p transfer that was the same as we saw on Netflix. As I said before I don't have Netflix, so I had no idea of it's existence and with WHV telling us it's 4x3 widescreen what other direction was I supposed to go in? Shut up and ignore it or at least mention what was going on to our audience? Instigating a twelve page thread on blu-ray.com (or anywhere else) discussing how stupid this all sounded wasn't my intention and I'm sorry that so many people have gotten riled up over the Blu-ray release of a ten year old direct-to-video cartoon (albeit one that is probably one of my favorite Batman stories ever, but I digress).

In any case I've said my peace and honestly doubt there's anything else I (or anyone else for that matter) can say about this. I'll walk away with the egg on my face now.

[Kangel]

Good lord people, this is ridiculous. Cut this guy some slack and give us all a break.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by Kangel

Good lord people, this is ridiculous. Cut this guy some slack and give us all a break.

.

[Shawn Elestren]

Originally Posted by Shawn Watson

No one here really knows the AR situation so let's not start dictating to one another what we believe is true. We just have to wait.

No one listens to me.

[3Stooges]

[whbinder]

Originally Posted by J-Syxx

It's like the moderator thinks the debate will end just becuase he's deleting all replies irregardless of content. He's pretty much taken one person's side in a debate via the delete button. That's not what mods are supposed to do.

Or... the moderator hasn't taken sides, but has left the viewpoints on both sides which are respectful and removed the ones that are demeaning and belittling.

[BillieCassin]

Originally Posted by HDMe

Now as to the "information directly from the source" part...

Who knows if that is true? Maybe he is just writing his opinion.

Who knows who he talked to?

Just to clarify this, both the person quoted, as well as members of this forum, were given the information directly from Warner's PR Dept.

That's the "source" I was referring to.

That said, on this thread in general, it seems "the source" is likely incorrect, but I still feel like we've killed the messenger a bit in this thread. Especially since this has been escalated past just the Blu-ray.com forum, it might be time just to wait this one out because it doesn't matter who was right - no one will remember that, just that "oh yeah that's the site with the bashdowns".

This generally isn't that type of site (though, lately, because of various circumstances it has felt a bit like it), and I think in this case it may just be prudent to wait until the review copies are out.

[HDMe]

I am reminded of the time when I was a kid... and there was a guy on the Phil Donahue show (think Oprah before Oprah for the non-old-timers here)... and the guy said he was a vice-president or something of Proctor & Gamble (think lots of popular home products from foods to health care to cleaning supplies).

Anyway, this guy claimed his company's logo was symbolic of devil worship and that the company wanted to secretly push that agenda.

I had a teacher at school want us all to stop using their products... and many in the country went ape-nuts... and this was pre-internet rumor spreading days!

Once the dust settled... it turned out the guy was a nut who didn't even work there... but damage had been done and it took the company a while to recover from the PR.

That's what I'm reminded of when I see people spread stuff on the internet about a product that hasn't yet been released and claim someone told them and they "know" it to be true.

Usually, even if these rumors pan out... it isn't because a reliable source told someone... it's just a blind guess based on what someone heard someone else say... then 5 other sites quote it and talk about it.

IF this release is butchered by WB, it will be rightfully panned once it hits the shelves and the first person watches it... but if it isn't butchered... you can bet the retraction of the rumor will NOT see the same level of activity as all this thrashing has seen in the meantime.

That's what I hate... this thread is pages longer than it should be based on a rumor that may or may not be founded... and when the movie comes out, this thread will die a quick death and what harm has been done will not be undone.

At least the people going nuts over Lord of the Rings not having extended editions released first... at least they had a legitimate gripe and a known issue to lament... but for this movie we have no reason to be freaking out one way or the other... and all it is doing is riling a bunch of people up and creating work for moderators to sift through to boot.

Why can't we all get along? At least until there is something to really complain about.

[captveg]

I'm a far more reliable source of accurate information. Re-read my prior posts in this thread. It ends this silliness.

[Deciazulado]

You are still arguing the same thing as 3 pages back?

ad nauseam posts might dissapear!

[Kangel]

They did cite a source - a representative at WHV. That doesn't sound 'anonymous' to me. I'm sure if asked they'd give a specific name if asked. Then again, the site's reputation leads me to believe that what they're reporting is factual. That site is no different than this site as far as I'm concerned, a fansite for Blu-ray. Besides this site has linked to that one as a source for news once or twice which speaks volumes again of the site's reputation. But the venom being spewed here is just insane and it really needs to stop. Besides, why doesn't someone here at blu-ray.com ask about the aspect ratio?

Hopefully this thread will cool down. Significantly.

[Spidey Blu]

^LOL exactly my point. This whole arguement is getting ridiculous.

[captveg]

Again, the problem is that the source doesn't know how to state things properly in regards to terminology, which is unfortunately very common in the Home Video industry. I'll say it once more - it's a problem I've been dealing with for years. It's 1.33:1 16x9 Pillarboxed. Period.

[BillieCassin]

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Dal...llection/15048


Well I guess that 'splains it.

Warners has a new terminology, it seems.

[Jimmy Smith]

Originally Posted by BillieCassin

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Dal...llection/15048


Well I guess that 'splains it.

Warners has a new terminology, it seems.

Thats interesting. Gives me hope this release won't be the disaster earlier reported

[captveg]

Told you all it was a matter of back-asswards terminology.

1.33:1 16x9 Pillarboxed. If they would just say that it would be much, much clearer.

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

Thats interesting. Gives me hope this release won't be the disaster earlier reported

OT but I just wanted to say it doesn't make any sense for Standard DVD, they are throwing away resolution this way, they should flag the disc 4:3, the player then will pillarbox properly depending on your screen.... Warner is drunk!....