Kam & Ronson...Yea or Nay?

[drees5761]

Originally Posted by toddly6666

But this is just advertising. We've been exposed to advertising our whole lives that false advertising applies to everything. How many other products do you normally buy that is advertised as being "good" but actually it's not as good as stated (most supermarket packaged food, for example).

When blu-ray came out, I thought that every single blu-ray would be super quality. But now that there are thousands of blu-rays available, we have seen plenty of sub-par quality releases, including Hollywood releases from big studios. And they are labeled as 1080p and/or DTS-HD as well.

Doesnt mean we have to buy them or settle for poor releases!

[PGW]

Sorry. I just don't buy the "well, this kind of looks like crap, but you really can't expect more..." line. The Hong Kong Film Archive has an extensive catalog, and the major studios have holdings of their own. If a particular issue looks shoddy, I think the most likely reason is that no one wants to spend the money to restore the film to the best possible quality and assumes (rightly, it turns out) that many people will settle for an up-convert of whatever video master they've got around.

That said, I recognize the quality of HK films is rarely going to be up to the standard of U.S. product - but damage and shoddy handling of the film elements through the years is a different story than simply not going to the trouble of transferring in HD from an original 35mm source.

[backslashio]

Would be great if Criterion got a hold of every oldish asian movie I'd be very curious to see how good Police Story could look with another remaster

K&R are alright although I don't expect much from them (I'd say half-yay). Sometimes the video transfers are actually pretty good (Once Upon a Time in China 1 - in comparison to the HKL DVD release the colours on K&R are far superior) and other times there's very minimal difference. I do like them though for the fact that many movies they release are either discontinued or very unlikely to receive a western release

Usually I'm just happy enough having it in uncut form (Armour of God II)

[Mike dk]

Originally Posted by toddly6666

But this is just advertising. We've been exposed to advertising our whole lives that false advertising applies to everything. How many other products do you normally buy that is advertised as being "good" but actually it's not as good as stated (most supermarket packaged food, for example).

When blu-ray came out, I thought that every single blu-ray would be super quality. But now that there are thousands of blu-rays available, we have seen plenty of sub-par quality releases, including Hollywood releases from big studios. And they are labeled as 1080p and/or DTS-HD as well.

I diffently don't share you opinion at all. When I buy something I espect to get what I buy - nothing less. K&R are fooling people no matter how you cut it by releasing SD upconvets and selling them as HD. If people like to support crap like this it is just showing the company, that they can release whatever they want as people buy it no matter what.

I wish there was a standard for HD so that it would be illegal for companies to release anything less than real HD on blu ray.

[Mobe1969]

I seriously can't believe they still make VCD in HK. Who'd want it? And they are only marginally cheaper than the DVD counterparts

[PGW]

Originally Posted by Brown

I don't get some of the expectations. My favorite "period" of HK cinema runs from about 1985 to 1995, and I do not expect to see pristine releases of my favorite films. It's not going to happen, and I understand why. The movie studios simply did not preserve these movies.

Why do you say that?

Do you think they made a video master for, oh, say "Pom Pom" and then threw the 35mm source material in the garbage?

[Dragon Lee]

Originally Posted by drees5761

Dont you import dvd's?..you must import the K&R Blu rays.
Iron Monkey, Supercop, Operation Condor, OUATIC trilogy and Chinese Ghost Story have all had remastered Hong Kong dvd releases.

I did import HK DVDs, atleast those that werent region locked (I didnt own a region free player till just a few years ago). I could still get those on DVD if I wanted to but Im content with the upgrade to blu!

Originally Posted by Brown

As one who owns countless HK films on VCD and DVD that are letterboxed for 4 X 3 displays and with burned in subtitles, I am content with almost any upgrade to blu-ray disc.

+1. why is it OK to own a crap quality VCD or DVD but not OK to own a subpar blu-ray? Somebody explain that to me.

Originally Posted by Brown

...And I'll take a mediocre blu-ray of A BETTER TOMORROW or THE BRIDE WITH WHITE HAIR any day over a perfect blu-ray of DUE DATE or THE TOURIST.

I'd rather see a mediocre release of a great film than no release at all. But thats just me.

[PGW]

Originally Posted by Dragon Lee

+1. why is it OK to own a crap quality VCD or DVD but not OK to own a subpar blu-ray? Somebody explain that to me.

Because VCDs are, by their very nature, crap quality. I've NEVER seen one that's anything more than barely watchable - indeed, I think that's impossible, given the poor resolution. DVDs vary in quality, true - but they also vary in price. I don't expect much from a $5.00 Fortune Star re-issue (and I don't get much, either). But putting a lesser quality transfer onto blu-ray is, to me, like transferring some vintage Edison cylinders to DVD-Audio... what's the point of the better quality format, if you're not going to make use of the higher resolution? And what's the point of buying an inferior blu-ray, if it's only marginally better than the DVD that's sitting on my shelf (can anyone say "Drunken Master II"?).

Originally Posted by Dragon Lee

I'd rather see a mediocre release of a great film than no release at all.

Now, there we agree

[toddly6666]

Isn't Criterion's THE KILLER an example of "what would happen if a respectable home video company got rights to release HK movie classics on home video." Look what Criterion did - the Criterion DVD of THE KILLER sucks. So if Criterion can't do it, then who can?

[backslashio]

Originally Posted by toddly6666

Isn't Criterion's THE KILLER an example of "what would happen if a respectable home video company got rights to release HK movie classics on home video." Look what Criterion did - the Criterion DVD of THE KILLER sucks. So if Criterion can't do it, then who can?

It doesn't suck (its just the aspect ratio that screwed it up), its actually a more superior version than what Dragon Dynasty came up with on bluray. Don't forget that the DVD was released 9 years ago and Criterion currently have the best software to do something about it. Restoration has come a long way in the last 10 years

[drees5761]

"The film elements or whatever you want to call them just don't exist for certain HK films to make the perfection-seeking blu-ray enthusiast happy."

Then dont release them on Blu ray, just on dvd and stop conning people into thinking there HD when there not. The first Shaw Brothers blu rays released in Hong Kong are superb quality so masters do exist for some films, as someone said, its if companies are willing to pay out for the restoration.

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by drees5761

Then dont release them on Blu ray, just on dvd and stop conning people into thinking there HD when there not. The first Shaw Brothers blu rays released in Hong Kong are superb quality so masters do exist for some films, as someone said, its if companies are willing to pay out for the restoration.

1. Why should not they release them on Blu-ray? I personally am not convinced that Blu-ray should be used only for 1080p (or 1080i/720p) products. As I noted earlier, clearly there are advantages in picking many of these films on upconverted Blu-rays, and not on SDVD. If you believe that eventually a better release will come along, fine, wait for it. But I, and many other people who understand that certain improvements are simply impossible, would rather have the 'best'. And if the 'best' happens to be an uconverted transfer placed on a Blu-ray, so be it. When I project upconverted Blu-rays, and specifically the recent Kam releases, they are clearly better looking than upconverted SDVDs.


Perhaps you could successfully argue that they should mark them as upconverts, but to be perfectly honest with you, the large majority of people who would be interested in owning these films in stadard-def most likely already own them. Blu-ray is already on an entirely different level, it is a mass format, and just like back in the days there were plenty of silent films that could not be release properly on SDVD (speed) but did, there should be no reason why upconverted transfers should not appear on Blu-ray. Clearly, there are plenty of leterrboxed HK films that will benefit enormously from appearing on Blu-ray.

2. The fact that there are some masters for some films does not mean that there are masters for all films. So, it is not a matter of only being willing to pay.

Pro-B

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by PGW

Because VCDs are, by their very nature, crap quality. I've NEVER seen one that's anything more than barely watchable - indeed, I think that's impossible, given the poor resolution. DVDs vary in quality, true - but they also vary in price. I don't expect much from a $5.00 Fortune Star re-issue (and I don't get much, either). But putting a lesser quality transfer onto blu-ray is, to me, like transferring some vintage Edison cylinders to DVD-Audio... what's the point of the better quality format, if you're not going to make use of the higher resolution? And what's the point of buying an inferior blu-ray, if it's only marginally better than the DVD that's sitting on my shelf (can anyone say "Drunken Master II"?).

Now, there we agree

I am sorry. You assume that the transfer is "lesser" - which implies that there could have been a better transfer but such was avoided. With a lot of the films that we are arguing about here "better" does not exist.

Additionally, I don't have a problem paying extra 5$ for "marginally better". Because, really, in most cases I could get the new Kam Blu-rays for about 3-5$ more than what the SDVDs cost. For me, it is well worth it.

Pro-B

[PGW]

People keep saying "better transfers don't exist!" or "the film elements are gone!" and I ask, again, how do you KNOW that?

Obviously thousands and thousands of films were made in HK during the "golden era". Invariably, some of the original film elements have gotten lost. However, just because an archival print of some obscure 80's film made for a fly-by-night company no longer exists does not mean that 35mm elements can't be found for... say, "Police Story."

To each his own, but, to me, lowering the bar on blu-ray quality to the point where you'll buy anything that's an improvement on the DVD simply shows the companies that are making these things that they can get away with up-converting whatever video sources they have laying around, and not spend the extra money to properly re-transfer and restore the film from the archival print.

[McCrutchy]

Originally Posted by PGW

People keep saying "better transfers don't exist!" or "the film elements are gone!" and I ask, again, how do you KNOW that?

Obviously thousands and thousands of films were made in HK during the "golden era". Invariably, some of the original film elements have gotten lost. However, just because an archival print of some obscure 80's film made for a fly-by-night company no longer exists does not mean that 35mm elements can't be found for... say, "Police Story."

To each his own, but, to me, lowering the bar on blu-ray quality to the point where you'll buy anything that's an improvement on the DVD simply shows the companies that are making these things that they can get away with up-converting whatever video sources they have laying around, and not spend the extra money to properly re-transfer and restore the film from the archival print.

I shouldn't get involved with this debate, but I'm pretty sure that something as internationally well-known as Police Story does not fall under the umbrella of releases that pro-bassoonist and others are advocating. It seems to me that they are advocating K&R releases for classic HK films--many of which have not yet had anamorphic DVD releases, let alone high definition transfers--simply because the obscurity of these titles will almost certainly prevent them from being acquired by another English-friendly distributor and given a better release, irrespective of whether or not superior elements exist outside K&R's faculties.

[drees5761]

At the end of the day we all want the same thing!
Good quality releases, some are happy with what they are getting some are not, but i dont think its black and white with regards to availability of masters, perhaps Cine Asia will be able to throw some light on the issue if they do start to release classic titles onto blu ray.

[almo89]

It is well known that HK films are not preserved well, but I don't buy that as the argument for sub par releases on blu ray or even DVD for that matter. Some of the old Shaw Brothers prints were in terrible condition but they were able to restore the whole catalogue. The american version of Drunken Master 2 looks far Superior than the HK DVD release. It all comes down to how much money they want to put in to restore these old films. Since the HK film target audience is considered niche, studios don't think it's worth it to spend lots of money to restore them.

It's all business. Because of this, I will not purchase any of these blu rays. It's all personal preference. If you guys think any of these Kam and Ronson releases are good enough, definitely go out and buy it.

[PGW]

Funny you mention "God of Gamblers," Brown. I remember reading when that awful Mei Ah disc was the only one available that they couldn't remaster the film because they no longer had a usable print.

And then... they did .

[Mike dk]

I don't buy the "it's all that we have as the original film is lost" excuse for one second. Real blu ray have been released of films such as Fist of Legend and Tai Chi Master and I'm positive that many more classic films could be released this way. It's really all dawn to the studio. Are they willing the create a real HD master or will they go the easy way with SD upconverts? As long as people support their SD upconcerts why spend money on creating a real HD master?

If you don't demand quality you won't get it!

[Dragon Lee]

Originally Posted by Mike dk

I don't buy the "it's all that we have as the original film is lost" excuse for one second. Real blu ray have been released of films such as Fist of Legend and Tai Chi Master and I'm positive that many more classic films could be released this way.

But FOL & TCM have been under western ownwership since the mid-late 90's, only a few years after they were made. Back then, they probly had access to original materials. Plus I highly doubt that Disney leaves their film prints just lying around in somebody's roach infested closet.