Star Wars Wars the UOT Strikes Back and OTHER PEZ dispensers

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Lucas is at his very best when he doesn't have pesky dialogue to deal with, and that scene is a perfect fusion of images and music. Stunning.

Such a shame that it's followed by a horribly abrupt music cue as Anakin jumps into his speeder to go and save Palpatine, but such is the cut-and-shut bodge job cinematic world of George Lucas.

Off topic and wrong forum but there is nowhere else to ask for your clarification ...

Are saying is that he is a lousy director? Or that "acting" gets in the way of special effects? He has stated many times that he "hated" the day to day directing of films and the interaction with "actors". I think maybe he would have been better served by having other directors sit in the chair on the prequels or at least handed Clones and Sith to someone else as they were the worst of the three in terms of dialouge and character development IMO.

Back on topic; do you think all will be revealed at the Comic Con in San Deigo? Or will it be later that the details are released?

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Lucas is at his very best when he doesn't have pesky dialogue to deal with, and that scene is a perfect fusion of images and music. Stunning.

Such a shame that it's followed by a horribly abrupt music cue as Anakin jumps into his speeder to go and save Palpatine, but such is the cut-and-shut bodge job cinematic world of George Lucas.

It reminded me a lot of Luke's sunset scene in ANH. Tremendous scene and expertly acted in ANH and ROTS. You know what the characters are thinking in both and that the next moment is going to take the character(s) in an expected direction. The calm before the storm if you will.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

Amen. In Phantom Menace, he should have been a little older. I also agree with the lack of slow and realistic development - hes a cute kid one minute and a cranky, misguided weenie the next minute. Luke and Han Solo both undergo believable transformations in the OT. Not the case for Anakin.

Guess you've never had a teen in the house. They're all cute kids before the hormones kick in and puberty happens. And then they become arrogant, nasty, know-it-alls who think they know better than their parents, teachers, government, etc. Don't you remember the line from the 1960s, "Don't trust anyone over 30"? Look at any teen who is violent, abusive, engages in risky activities, etc. and you'll probably find someone who was once a cute kid.

People complain about how this whiny, arrogant kid became Darth Vader, but that's exactly the kind of kid who would become Darth Vader. Someone who was very smart and gifted, but had an inflated ego and a sense of entitlement. In addition, even though he seemed like a happy kid, he was a slave, which is a form of abuse, and people who have been abused frequently repeat that abuse with their own family.

So while I do think that much of the writing in the PT was very weak, this is one aspect which I think worked. Where I think the logic of the script fails is the failure of the Jedi Council to recognize Anakin's character and psychological faults and that once Vader learns that Padame died, why he maintains his allegience to Palpatine. The whole point of Anakin turning to the dark side was supposedly to prevent Padame from dying.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

Amen. In Phantom Menace, he should have been a little older. I also agree with the lack of slow and realistic development - hes a cute kid one minute and a cranky, misguided weenie the next minute. Luke and Han Solo both undergo believable transformations in the OT. Not the case for Anakin.

I also dont care at all for how they handled him being seperated from his Mother. Yer tellin me that Qui Gon couldnt have also got his Mother out of there too? C'mon - thats just not realistic. Noone would have noticed if they swiped her in the middle of the night and just bolted outta there and even then, was that Italian-talking character(forgot name ) gonna chase them across the galaxy for a slave that was stolen? No freegin way. I hated that. Plus, Anakin doesnt even try to go visit her sooner than he does? All of a sudden he has dreams about her....YEARS after he is separated from her? It just suddenly dawned on him that shes still a slave on Tatooine? Its just bad writing...no other way to put it.

I realize they had to have her die and for the two of them to ultimately be separated for the story to work but they could have handled this MUCH better and more realistically.

+1

I totally agree about the mother situation - unrealistic. The fact he doesn't even visit her for years on top of it. LOL Yeah, surrrreeee.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Guess you've never had a teen in the house. They're all cute kids before the hormones kick in and puberty happens. And then they become arrogant, nasty, know-it-alls who think they know better than their parents, teachers, government, etc. Don't you remember the line from the 1960s, "Don't trust anyone over 30"? Look at any teen who is violent, abusive, engages in risky activities, etc. and you'll probably find someone who was once a cute kid.

I don't think it's quite that extreme in all houses, but I get your point.

On any rate, I think it was the poor acting and dialogue more than anything that bothered fans regarding the younger Anakin(s). It could have been done in a much better way and show more of a progression.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Guess you've never had a teen in the house. They're all cute kids before the hormones kick in and puberty happens. And then they become arrogant, nasty, know-it-alls who think they know better than their parents, teachers, government, etc. Don't you remember the line from the 1960s, "Don't trust anyone over 30"? Look at any teen who is violent, abusive, engages in risky activities, etc. and you'll probably find someone who was once a cute kid.

People complain about how this whiny, arrogant kid became Darth Vader, but that's exactly the kind of kid who would become Darth Vader. Someone who was very smart and gifted, but had an inflated ego and a sense of entitlement. In addition, even though he seemed like a happy kid, he was a slave, which is a form of abuse, and people who have been abused frequently repeat that abuse with their own family.

So while I do think that much of the writing in the PT was very weak, this is one aspect which I think worked. Where I think the logic of the script fails is the failure of the Jedi Council to recognize Anakin's character and psychological faults and that once Vader learns that Padame died, why he maintains his allegience to Palpatine. The whole point of Anakin turning to the dark side was supposedly to prevent Padame from dying.

Not quite yet - I have a 12 year old daughter so shes almost there.

I see what you are saying and yes, the whiny arrogant teen would be the type to become Vader. I just think the abruptness of it is what bothered me. Thats why many of would have liked to see Anakin a little older in TPM instead of so young. The age gap hurts the character development, IMO.

I do agree with you on the Padme/Palpatine thing - he changed to the Dark side to save her yet she dies and he even accepts Palpatines story about him killing her when really she died from a broken heart.

[Lyle_JP]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

Off topic and wrong forum but there is nowhere else to ask for your clarification ...

Are saying is that he is a lousy director? Or that "acting" gets in the way of special effects? He has stated many times that he "hated" the day to day directing of films and the interaction with "actors". I think maybe he would have been better served by having other directors sit in the chair on the prequels or at least handed Clones and Sith to someone else as they were the worst of the three in terms of dialouge and character development IMO.

Back on topic; do you think all will be revealed at the Comic Con in San Deigo? Or will it be later that the details are released?

I don't want to speak for Geoff, but I think he was critiquing Lucas as a writer, not director. I've always felt that the worst failing of the pre-trilogy was clunky dialog. These films really could have benefited from a quick dialog polish by someone like Lawrence Kasdan.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

+1

I totally agree about the mother situation - unrealistic. The fact he doesn't even visit her for years on top of it. LOL Yeah, surrrreeee.

You know of course that it's not supposed to be "realistic". It's a myth!

As for why Anakin never visits his mother or why he didn't turn away from Palpatine after Padme was dead - that's the eastern mindset of obedience, duty and giving yourself completely. There are no "Greys" in the prequels. There are not supposed to be. Jedi are good and Sith are Evil. It takes Luke to transcend the two sides of the force by incorporating the dark side. So he brings Anakin back from the dark side, a thing that was unheard of before!

Each movie reveals more themes and subleties of the force. f.e.:
EPISODE 1: Jedi are good always - Sith are bad always
EPISODE 2: Jedi can be turned to Sith. After that they are lost.
EPISODE 6: Sith can be turned back to the good side.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

You know of course that it's not supposed to be "realistic". It's a myth!

As for why Anakin never visits his mother or why he didn't turn away from Palpatine after Padme was dead - that's the eastern mindset of obedience, duty and giving yourself completely.

It HAS to make sense - any movie for that matter whether we are talking aliens, dinosaurs, or whatever else.

So, you are saying NO eastern "mindset" trainee would have ever visited his mother again who had been kept a slave?! No contact at all?!

Seems like a far, far stretch.

[the sordid sentinel]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Guess you've never had a teen in the house. They're all cute kids before the hormones kick in and puberty happens. And then they become arrogant, nasty, know-it-alls who think they know better than their parents, teachers, government, etc. Don't you remember the line from the 1960s, "Don't trust anyone over 30"? Look at any teen who is violent, abusive, engages in risky activities, etc. and you'll probably find someone who was once a cute kid.

People complain about how this whiny, arrogant kid became Darth Vader, but that's exactly the kind of kid who would become Darth Vader. Someone who was very smart and gifted, but had an inflated ego and a sense of entitlement. In addition, even though he seemed like a happy kid, he was a slave, which is a form of abuse, and people who have been abused frequently repeat that abuse with their own family.

So while I do think that much of the writing in the PT was very weak, this is one aspect which I think worked. Where I think the logic of the script fails is the failure of the Jedi Council to recognize Anakin's character and psychological faults and that once Vader learns that Padame died, why he maintains his allegience to Palpatine. The whole point of Anakin turning to the dark side was supposedly to prevent Padame from dying.

I hear ya on the teen thing. I have several nieces that are in the "teen terror" yrs. and I often wonder where those cute, bubbly girls I used to know went. Sheesh.

[Bucky]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

Amen. In Phantom Menace, he should have been a little older. I also agree with the lack of slow and realistic development - hes a cute kid one minute and a cranky, misguided weenie the next minute. Luke and Han Solo both undergo believable transformations in the OT. Not the case for Anakin.

I also dont care at all for how they handled him being seperated from his Mother. Yer tellin me that Qui Gon couldnt have also got his Mother out of there too? C'mon - thats just not realistic. Noone would have noticed if they swiped her in the middle of the night and just bolted outta there and even then, was that Italian-talking character(forgot name ) gonna chase them across the galaxy for a slave that was stolen? No freegin way. I hated that. Plus, Anakin doesnt even try to go visit her sooner than he does? All of a sudden he has dreams about her....YEARS after he is separated from her? It just suddenly dawned on him that shes still a slave on Tatooine? Its just bad writing...no other way to put it.

I realize they had to have her die and for the two of them to ultimately be separated for the story to work but they could have handled this MUCH better and more realistically.

i am pretty sure that they discuss transmitters that slaves have in them that will blow them up if they try to escape.

also, regarding him not visiting his mother, it is probably because jedi are not supposed to have any attachments.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

It HAS to make sense - any movie for that matter whether we are talking aliens, dinosaurs, or whatever else.

So, you are saying NO eastern "mindset" trainee would have ever visited his mother again who had been kept a slave?! No contact at all?!

Seems like a far, far stretch.

It's no weekend retreat to become a jedi. It's a hard life!
Tatooine is located in Hutt space where the jedi have no dealings or authority. He couldn't have visited his mother.

But most of all Anakins fear of loss is an important plot-point. He had to make a hard and final decision to give himself to the jedi completely.

[ST2012]

But he never did truly give himself to the Jedi way. He hid the fact that he had taken a wife who was having a child. It's hard for me to believe that someone who was clearly easily swayed by emotion wouldn't have gone back to his mother. It doesn't ruin the PT for me but it's a bit of a stretch IMO.

[Scooter1836]

Originally Posted by ST2012

But he never did truly give himself to the Jedi way. He hid the fact that he had taken a wife who was having a child. It's hard for me to believe that someone who was clearly easily swayed by emotion wouldn't have gone back to his mother. It doesn't ruin the PT for me but it's a bit of a stretch IMO.

However that emptional swaying could have been developing over time and his giving of himself to the Jedi way could have easily altered as time progressed. I do not see it as much of a stretch.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Bucky

i am pretty sure that they discuss transmitters that slaves have in them that will blow them up if they try to escape.

also, regarding him not visiting his mother, it is probably because jedi are not supposed to have any attachments.

Bonus points for actually paying attention to the plot! In both cases!

I do wish that Anakin had been played by the same actor the whole way through. At least the progression from cute moppet to borderline psycho teen would've had some sort of organic flow, even on as basic a level as having the older version look like the younger version. That's what I HATE about the transition from Phantom Menace to Clones: there isn't a transition!

And yeah, that stuff I was saying before about Lucas is down to his tin ear for dialogue and his general dislike for the filming process. The guy's an editor at heart (which, incidentally, is why he tinkers with his movies so much). His prior American Classics™ like THX 1138 and American Graffiti work so well because the humans play second fiddle to the images, the music, or a combination of both. For me, Star Wars weaves most of its magic when the characters just shut the **** up.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by Bucky

i am pretty sure that they discuss transmitters that slaves have in them that will blow them up if they try to escape.

also, regarding him not visiting his mother, it is probably because jedi are not supposed to have any attachments.

Damn - good call on the slave transmitters. How could I have forgotten that?

Still though, Qui Gon could have worked something to get her too. Hell, they could have come back shortly afterwards and tried at least.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

People complain about how this whiny, arrogant kid became Darth Vader, but that's exactly the kind of kid who would become Darth Vader. Someone who was very smart and gifted, but had an inflated ego and a sense of entitlement. In addition, even though he seemed like a happy kid, he was a slave, which is a form of abuse, and people who have been abused frequently repeat that abuse with their own family.

Excellent points. Its just like the saying, "Hurt people hurt people."

Where I think the logic of the script fails, is the failure of the Jedi Council to recognize Anakin's character and psychological faults...

Well, Yoda did sense a great deal of fear in Anakin as a boy, and he warned Obi-Wan that training him would be gravely dangerous.

...and that once Vader learns that Padame died, why he maintains his allegience to Palpatine.

This is made clear before his fight with Obi-Wan, when he tells Padme he can overthrow the Chancellor. This is also expanded on in the "Episode III" novel, which was based on Lucas' original screenplay. After Vader's been rebuilt with his black armor, Palpatine lies to him about Padme...and in his grief, he tries using the Force to destroy the Emperor. However, because so much of him is now artificial, his powers are greatly reduced, so only droids and his surgery table explode. He stays with Palpatine, fully intent on someday replacing him. That's why he revealed the truth to Luke on Bespin; it was a "power play" to try and have his son help him.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And yeah, that stuff I was saying before about Lucas is down to his tin ear for dialogue and his general dislike for the filming process. The guy's an editor at heart (which, incidentally, is why he tinkers with his movies so much). His prior American Classics™ like THX 1138 and American Graffiti work so well because the humans play second fiddle to the images, the music, or a combination of both. For me, Star Wars weaves most of its magic when the characters just shut the **** up.

Well said. That goes double for the people who somehow think Harrison Ford's wooden acting and the marvelous thespian skills of a coked out Carrie Fisher are superior to the acting in the prequels.

[Strevlac]

Originally Posted by Uxi

Well said. That goes double for the people who somehow think Harrison Ford's wooden acting and the marvelous thespian skills of a coked out Carrie Fisher are superior to the acting in the prequels.

Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher where both excellent in Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. I don't see how they could have possibly been any better.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Uxi

Well said. That goes double for the people who somehow think Harrison Ford's wooden acting and the marvelous thespian skills of a coked out Carrie Fisher are superior to the acting in the prequels.

Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher and Mark Freaking Hamill were far more engaging, entertaining and believable than Natalie Portman, Samuel L Jackson or Jimmy Smits.

Do you suppose that might have something to do with people wondering whether Lucas' directing skills might have peaked in the 70s?

(FTR Harrison Ford was terrible in Jedi. Then again, most things were)