Star Wars Wars the UOT Strikes Back and OTHER PEZ dispensers

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

And people who dislike the PT don't know the first thing about Storytelling. That's just my opinion. For me the PT totally hit the spot. The acting was beatifully moving, especially in the love scenes and the final confrontation between Anakin and Padme.

I'm not one who "hates" the PT, but I've got to disagree with you concerning the love scenes. The love and confrontation scenes were so bad they were almost camp. The "I don't know who you are anymore" line actually made me laugh out loud in the theatre because that line has been so overused. It sounded like a line from a bad romantic comedy. And I don't blame the actors because Natalie Portman and Hayden Christensen have each done great performances in other films. I blame the writing and Lucas' poor direction of the actors (even he has apparently admitted that he doesn't like directing actors.)

I saw a Star Wars PT documentary where Lucas is putting a lot of effort into reviewing costumes, special effects, etc. and then he makes an off-hand comment, "oh, I guess I'd better start writing." I can't prove this one way or the other, but it made me feel like that he actually put very little effort into the writing of the PT and that it certainly didn't go through many refinements or revisions. And then the documentary showed him directing the actors, and as long as the actors hit their marks, it didn't seem that Lucas was concerned with much else. My bet is that Lucas has not had enough personal relationships in his life to accurately write about love relationships. I don't think writing about love is easy, but other writers/directors have managed to pull it off and make it believable. Lucas didn't in the PT. (All in my opinion, of course.) I thought that Solo eventually falling in love with Leia was far better handled, even if it was the usual "I hate you/I love you" movie b.s.

What did work for me (but apparently not for many other people) was the final confrontation between Anakin and Obi-Wan. Even Anakin's "I hate you" line, where he sounds like a spoiled child, worked for me because while he was dangerous, he was also in many respects actually still a spoiled child. Within the context of the story, what you have to wonder is whether he would have been less psychologically damaged by staying with his mother, but remaining a slave, than by being freed but without his mother, at such a young age. Whether by design (which would actually be more interesting) or because of sloppy writing, the Jedi made numerous errors in judgement and in fact, were frequently hypocritical during the course of the story, but they never seem aware of that except in the OT when Obi-Wan implies that he made a mistake by training Anakin alone.

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I'm not one who "hates" the PT, but I've got to disagree with you concerning the love scenes. The love and confrontation scenes were so bad they were almost camp. The "I don't know who you are anymore" line actually made me laugh out loud in the theatre because that line has been so overused. It sounded like a line from a bad romantic comedy. And I don't blame the actors because Natalie Portman and Hayden Christensen have each done great performances in other films. I blame the writing and Lucas' poor direction of the actors (even he has apparently admitted that he doesn't like directing actors.)

I saw a Star Wars PT documentary where Lucas is putting a lot of effort into reviewing costumes, special effects, etc. and then he makes an off-hand comment, "oh, I guess I'd better start writing." I can't prove this one way or the other, but it made me feel like that he actually put very little effort into the writing of the PT and that it certainly didn't go through many refinements or revisions. And then the documentary showed him directing the actors, and as long as the actors hit their marks, it didn't seem that Lucas was concerned with much else. My bet is that Lucas has not had enough personal relationships in his life to accurately write about love relationships. I don't think writing about love is easy, but other writers/directors have managed to pull it off and make it believable. Lucas didn't in the PT. (All in my opinion, of course.) I thought that Solo eventually falling in love with Leia was far better handled, even if it was the usual "I hate you/I love you" movie b.s.

What did work for me (but apparently not for many other people) was the final confrontation between Anakin and Obi-Wan. Even Anakin's "I hate you" line, where he sounds like a spoiled child, worked for me because while he was dangerous, he was also in many respects actually still a spoiled child. Within the context of the story, what you have to wonder is whether he would have been less psychologically damaged by staying with his mother, but remaining a slave, than by being freed but without his mother, at such a young age. Whether by design (which would actually be more interesting) or because of sloppy writing, the Jedi made numerous errors in judgement and in fact, were frequently hypocritical during the course of the story, but they never seem aware of that except in the OT when Obi-Wan implies that he made a mistake by training Anakin alone.

Why would it work? Most everyone I know got the sense that he hated Obi Wan all along. As I said before there was no bonding in these films, nothing to show they were friends. In the OT Han and Luke build a friendship over time as they both change.The whole spoiled act never even needed to happen in TPM or AToC. If they had actually got along and been friends then when the emperor turned him a lot of us would have actually cared what was happening to him.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

People, whose favorite character is Han Solo, don't really like SW, or "get it" for that matter.

Wow, talk about an inaccurate and frankly pointless statement. Now you are dictating who is and isn't a real fan based on who their favorite character is? And with the character in question being one of the main characters from the original trilogy? I don't think that statement could get more ridiculous.

It's YOUR opinion, and in my opinion it's perfectly worthless.

Sorry, but you can't get away with making the statement that you just did about people who like Han Solo and then go around calling other people's opinions worthless. You pretty much just pissed on, poured gas on, and set fire to any remaining credibility that your opinions on this debate had left when you made that statement.

WTF? Seriously?

Actually, I think Ben_UK makes a great point.

The original Star Wars trilogy was widely embraced by a variety of people. Kids, adults, film fans, the film community at large. Sure, there were some people in the mix who probably didn't like it or were critical of it, but overall it had very positive reception.

By contrast, the prequels for the most part were met with a rather 'meh' response (if not complete disdain) by the film community (i.e. critics, academy awards, etc), and by 'film' fans who appreciate film overall on a level that many "average joes" do not. And likewise even the reaction from the public was very mixed. Some people hating it, some liking it, some saying it's just okay.

Heck, when I first saw Episode 1, I was trying to convince myself that what I just saw was good. I walked out of the theater saying to my friends, "that was pretty good!" It was like I didn't want to admit to myself, or to others, that this Star Wars movie that we waited so long to see sucked overall. But over time I came to realize that it did.

I will say that each episode was better than the one before it (IMO), but most of the things that improved were largely superficial. For instance, seeing Yoda finally rock a lightsaber for the first time when I first saw Episode II was rather awesome. But still, from a performance and story telling standpoint, it's still pretty terrible.

Getting back to my point about the film community, it's not that critics or those who give out awards are infallible. Far from it. I often disagree with them on many things, and they don't always agree with each other. And there are times that critics hate a movie but the public for the most part loves it. But when there's more or less a general consensus that many, many people come to, both within the 'film community' and the general public, that says a lot about the movies in question.

The point is that the SW prequels were highly anticipated by many people for years. Those who like them and defend them (and by extension defend George Lucas), always reach for their go-to argument that too many people had too many specific expectations and would be complaining no matter how the movies turned out. And I don't think that's quite accurate...

Sure, there would likely be some 'nit-picking'. That's going to happen with something as anticipated as these films were. But there is a difference between friendly nitpicking with a general positive consensus, and complaining with a generally negative consensus.

As an example, I'm a huge fan of the Back to the Future Trilogy. These are pretty much my all time favorite movies. I can sit down and watch them any time and never be in a mood where I wouldn't want to watch them. I love the characters and I love the story. But I can still get into really geeky conversations about it and nitpick where the time-travel-related plotholes occur, or when the very rules that the movies establish for time travel are flat out broken. It doesn't take away from my love of those movies. It's just that the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

Getting back to the PT, if the end result had been (from a large, consensus standpoint), a series of good movies that had an overall positive reaction, sure people might nitpick over things not happening that they expected, or something not happening quite how they thought, but if they had seen a good movie and felt genuinely entertained, and especially if the movie held up or got better to them upon repeat viewings, the general disdain for the prequels that so often takes over any conversation about Star Wars these days simply wouldn't happen (or it would be limited to a very, very, very small minority of complainers who would maybe pop up once in a blue moon).


And for those who don't "get" how people can complain so much about these films and yet still call themselves fans... it is because they were already fans before the prequels came out. They already had a love for Star Wars as a whole. And they were looking forward to the prequels, but they simply didn't deliver.... and this back story that had been anticipated for years was very lack luster for a large part of the fan base. What was simply a 'love' for Star Wars turned into a conflicted 'love/hate' relationship. I don't think it necessarily makes these people any less of fans for not liking the prequels. Maybe it's a different type of fan with different preferences, but it doesn't mean that they simply aren't fans period.

This 'it was made for kids' argument doesn't hold up since it wasn't kids exclusively who fell in love with the original films. The same adults in the film community who praised the originals overall disliked these new ones. You don't have to "care" what they think, but that DOES say a lot about the prequels whether you want to admit it or even aknowledge it. And it goes to show that they prequels are not the "same" as the OT. Some like the argue that there is no difference in the acting, style, quality of storytelling, etc of the PT compared to the OT, but the differences are there. Sure, there is some degree of subjectivity to it, but at the same time to completely deny it is like having someone hold up an apple and you insist that it is an orange.

At the end of the day, if you like the prequels, that's fine. They exist as is and short of maybe a few cosmetic alterations (i.e. adding CGI Yoda to Episode 1), these movies aren't going to be changing, so if you enjoy them as is, more power to you. But let's stop pretending that there are no differences between the two trilogies and that every complaint is out of line and would exist no matter what. That is simply, patently untrue.

[The Don]

I think Ben_UK makes a great point as well...

I was never a star wars nut even though I was born in that era and loved those movies - I never owned a Star Wars movie (until this upcoming September)...

I am a cinema fan way before I am a Star Wars fan and like the original trilogy only...I'm not saying which is better, but the original trilogy offers more of a movie that I would watch regardless of the name because the newer movies really offer nothing for me...I just don't care for them...

I'm not into owning all 6 movies to complete the saga, I just want the 3 movies I grew up with and loved as a child and still like very much...

the acting/actors/direction of the movies are a complete 180 (imo anyways) from what the newer movies offer...they are more along the lines of Star Wars ....by Michael Bay....and not that there are a bunch of explosions, but the focus really was on special effects....

so while I won't say that Ben_UK is right, I will say that I agree with what he says because it reflects me and probably not everyone, but I would be interested in what the people who like all 6 SW movies have in their Blu-ray collection vs the people who only want episodes IV-VI.....

just for poops n giggles of course...

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Wow, talk about an inaccurate and frankly pointless statement. Now you are dictating who is and isn't a real fan based on who their favorite character is? And with the character in question being one of the main characters from the original trilogy? I don't think that statement could get more ridiculous.



Sorry, but you can't get away with making the statement that you just did about people who like Han Solo and then go around calling other people's opinions worthless. You pretty much just pissed on, poured gas on, and set fire to any remaining credibility that your opinions on this debate had left when you made that statement.

Actually, I think Ben_UK makes a great point.

The original Star Wars trilogy was widely embraced by a variety of people. Kids, adults, film fans, the film community at large. Sure, there were some people in the mix who probably didn't like it or were critical of it, but overall it had very positive reception.

By contrast, the prequels for the most part were met with a rather 'meh' response (if not complete disdain) by the film community (i.e. critics, academy awards, etc), and by 'film' fans who appreciate film overall on a level that many "average joes" do not. And likewise even the reaction from the public was very mixed. Some people hating it, some liking it, some saying it's just okay.

Heck, when I first saw Episode 1, I was trying to convince myself that what I just saw was good. I walked out of the theater saying to my friends, "that was pretty good!" It was like I didn't want to admit to myself, or to others, that this Star Wars movie that we waited so long to see sucked overall. But over time I came to realize that it did.

I will say that each episode was better than the one before it (IMO), but most of the things that improved were largely superficial. For instance, seeing Yoda finally rock a lightsaber for the first time when I first saw Episode II was rather awesome. But still, from a performance and story telling standpoint, it's still pretty terrible.

Getting back to my point about the film community, it's not that critics or those who give out awards are infallible. Far from it. I often disagree with them on many things, and they don't always agree with each other. And there are times that critics hate a movie but the public for the most part loves it. But when there's more or less a general consensus that many, many people come to, both within the 'film community' and the general public, that says a lot about the movies in question.

The point is that the SW prequels were highly anticipated by many people for years. Those who like them and defend them (and by extension defend George Lucas), always reach for their go-to argument that too many people had too many specific expectations and would be complaining no matter how the movies turned out. And I don't think that's quite accurate...

Sure, there would likely be some 'nit-picking'. That's going to happen with something as anticipated as these films were. But there is a difference between friendly nitpicking with a general positive consensus, and complaining with a generally positive consensus.

As an example, I'm a huge fan of the Back to the Future Trilogy. These are pretty much my all time favorite movies. I can sit down and watch them any time and never be in a mood where I wouldn't want to watch them. I love the characters and I love the story. But I can still get into really geeky conversations about it and nitpick where the time-travel-related plotholes occur, or when the very rules that the movies establish for time travel are flat out broken. It doesn't take away from my love of those movies. It's just that the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

Getting back to the PT, if the end result had been (from a large, consensus standpoint), a series of good movies that had an overall positive reaction, sure people might nitpick over things not happening that they expected, or something not happening quite how they thought, but if they had seen a good movie and felt genuinely entertained, and especially if the movie held up or got better to them upon repeat viewings, the general disdain for the prequels that so often takes over any conversation about Star Wars these days simply wouldn't happen (or it would be limited to a very, very, very small minority of complainers who would maybe pop up once in a blue moon).


And for those who don't "get" how people can complain so much about these films and yet still call themselves fans is because they were already fans before the prequels came out. And they were looking forward to the prequels, but they simply didn't deliver.... and this back story that had been anticipated for years was very lack luster for a large part of the fan base. What was simply a 'love' for Star Wars turned into a conflicted 'love/hate' relationship. I don't think it necessarily makes these people any less of fans for not liking the prequels. Maybe it's a different type of fan with different preferences, but it doesn't mean that they simply aren't fans period.

This 'it was made for kids' argument doesn't hold up since it wasn't kids exclusively who fell in love with the original films. The same adults in the film community who praised the originals overall disliked these new ones. You don't have to "care" what they think, but that DOES say a lot about the prequels whether you want to admit it or even aknowledge it. And it goes to show that they prequels are not the "same" as the OT. Some like the argue that there is no difference in the acting, style, quality of storytelling, etc of the PT compared to the OT, but the differences are there. Sure, there is some degree of subjectivity to it, but at the same time to completely deny it is like having someone hold up an apple and you insist that it is an orange.

At the end of the day, if you like the prequels, that's fine. They exist as is and short of maybe a few cosmetic alterations (i.e. adding CGI Yoda to Episode 1), these movies aren't going to be changing, so if you enjoy them as is, more power to you. But let's stop pretending that there are no differences between the two trilogies and that every complaint is out of line and would exist no matter what. That is simply, patently untrue.

Good post here - Lots of interesting points. I agree that the OT is on a higher "plane" of existence than the PT ever will be. Like you mention, the OT was more widely embraced by moviegoers in general. There were less complaints, less arguing about content, less controversy, etc.

I think a big killer for the PT was it took so long to get them out and the anticipation awas so high that anything less than a Citizen Kane type of film was gonna be greeted with some hostility. But, the PT DID have plenty of issues and always will. The writing is sloppy at times, the acting is dodgy at times, the plot is overly convoluted/contrived/convenient. Many SW fans agree on this. But, its "what we got" and we'l just have to go with it.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

By contrast, the prequels for the most part were met with a rather 'meh' response (if not complete disdain) by the film community (i.e. critics, academy awards, etc), and by 'film' fans who appreciate film overall on a level that many "average joes" do not. And likewise even the reaction from the public was very mixed. Some people hating it, some liking it, some saying it's just okay.

And some who outright loved it. Don't rewrite history to agree with your own POV.

Heck, when I first saw Episode 1, I was trying to convince myself that what I just saw was good. I walked out of the theater saying to my friends, "that was pretty good!" It was like I didn't want to admit to myself, or to others, that this Star Wars movie that we waited so long to see sucked overall. But over time I came to realize that it did.

No, it was the old "I dodn't know I was supposed to hate Episode I until I went on the internet". I swear cobras have less venom than the comic book guys who use every opportunity they can to slam the prequels...just look at this thread.

You mention Back To The Future...you don't remember or are outright omitting the outcry when BTTF II came out and the bitter disappointment of many, leading to a somewhat tepid opening for III. Of course, there was no internet then so nostalgia has largely wiped the slate clean. 4 years people waited for that one and they were disappointed it didn't match or surpass the first. Now add 13 years to that and an army of geeks who were the first to embrace the internet and you have the reaction to the SW prequels by that community.

Newsflash: the prequels were VERY successful, and except for the types who hang out on internet boards largely popular with the general public, which includes a whole generation of KIDS who weren't beholden to memories of the first trilogy and didn't have unrealistic sky-high expectations.

[kamphausd1]

Originally Posted by atexp80

^ Yes, but you just know that we'd get some standard line about how the 2004 versions were made using the best available elements and restored using the best available technology of the time and that now 7 years later there are new tools etc that they have been able to use to deliver a far better end product.

That way they're saying the delivered the best they could in both 2004 and 2011, whilst admitting no fault of any sort. The thing about politicians is generally they've got someone behind them with an ability to craft superb statements which sidestep issues.

You perfectly described what Lucas and his company are about these days. There's no denying that he's a crafty businessman and would've made one hell of a politician.

And even if you were being sarastic, I still wouldn't put it past him at all to have his company issue a statement like the one you suggested (assuming the upcoming blu ray transfers have indeed fixed all the issues of course).

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

.



No, it was the old "I dodn't know I was supposed to hate Episode I until I went on the internet". I swear cobras have less venom than the comic book guys who use every opportunity they can to slam the prequels...just look at this thread.

Comic book guys? Just wondering what that has to do with Star Wars or what you mean by that?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

And some who outright loved it. Don't rewrite history to agree with your own POV.

I'm not "rewriting history". George Lucas, on the other hand...

Aside from the handful of vocal people who praise them on sites like this, I haven't met many people who "love" the prequels. Some hate them, some think they are okay... but bring up the issue of Star Wars, and I have yet to meet someone in my day to day life who will say that they like the prequels better overall than or as much as the originals.

No, it was the old "I dodn't know I was supposed to hate Episode I until I went on the internet". I swear cobras have less venom than the comic book guys who use every opportunity they can to slam the prequels...just look at this thread.

Actually a couple of the people that I was with when I saw Episode 1 said that they didn't like it. At the time, I was in a partial state of denial. And no, I didn't come to the point of disliking it and the rest of the prequels because "people on the internet said so"... it was because there were major genuine problems with the movies. When I walked out of seeing Episode 1 for the first time, I was kind of euphoric over some superficial things like the lightsaber battle in the movie, for example. But there was kind of this sense of "something was just... off... about it" that was in my head even at that time.

I'm not saying that everyone's experience was identical to mine, but in general it would seem that many people more or less came to a similar conclusion sooner or later. And not because other people "told them not to like it".

You mention Back To The Future...you don't remember or are outright omitting the outcry when BTTF II came out and the bitter disappointment of many, leading to a somewhat tepid opening for III. Of course, there was no internet then so nostalgia has largely wiped the slate clean. 4 years people waited for that one and they were disappointed it didn't match or surpass the first. Now add 13 years to that and an army of geeks who were the first to embrace the internet and you have the reaction to the SW prequels by that community.

Perhaps you are right on this to some extent. I was pretty young when the sequels to BTTF came out, so I don't really have much of a memory of the critical response to them.

None the less, while some people do state their dislike of the BTTF sequels (as has occurred in the thread about the BD release), there still doesn't seem to be the level of disdain for them as there is with the SW PT.

I don't think the absence of the internet at the time of them being made really has anything to do with it. The internet has been around for quite some time now, so there's been plenty of opportunity for people to complain about them, but it just doesn't seem to happen as often.

Perhaps time and nostalgia has helped BTTF to some extent, but Episode I is 12 years old now.... so it's not far off from being a 'nostalgic relic' itself, yet the disdain continues.

Newsflash: the prequels were VERY successful, and except for the types who hang out on internet boards largely popular with the general public, which includes a whole generation of KIDS who weren't beholden to memories of the first trilogy and didn't have unrealistic sky-high expectations.

Newflash: the REASON that they prequels were very successful is because they were STAR WARS movies. Star Wars (for better or worse) is a huge juggernaut of a franchise. Of course it's going to make money.

George Lucas could have literally filmed dog poop for 2 hours, slapped a Star Wars crawl in front of it, released it in theaters, and it would have made millions and had people lining up to see it weeks in advance.

And many people kept going back to see the next movie even if they didn't like the one before it because they wanted to see how it all was going to line up with the OT. The PT is the ultimate film form of a train wreck that people can't stop looking at no matter how much they may want to.

Sure, perhaps kids liked them, but of course that's going to be an easy audience for something like this. Kids aren't really going to have the knowledge or understanding of decent acting, character development, etc. You give them some lightsabers and flashy special effects and they are going to be happy.

Despite the argument that these films were for "kids" however, the same was supposedly true of the OT and it was praised by many adults and critics.

While there might have been high expectations for these films, at the end of the day if a solid story that logically lined up with the OT with decent acting and character development had been made, the overall reaction (both upon release and today) to these films would have been much more positive. Despite what you are saying here, the reality is that there IS a negative consensus of these movies, and it exists for GOOD reason. You can stick your head in the sand and pretend it isn't there, but that won't change the reality of the situation.

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I'm not "rewriting history". George Lucas, on the other hand...


Newflash: the REASON that they prequels were very successful is because they were STAR WARS movies. Star Wars (for better or worse) is a huge juggernaut of a franchise. Of course it's going to make money.

How were they sucessful other than TPM at least at the domestic BO? Clones tanked at the box office domestically....a paltry 310 Million was terrible in 2002 for a Star Wars product. Even 380 Million in 2005 for Sith was a big letdown at the box office. For a finale that was supposed to show how he became Vader and everything that was going to transpire could not even gross as much as Pirates of the Caribbean 2? The last two films, especially the 2nd underperformed big time at least in regards to domestic ticket sales. Worldwide they might have done fine but that still says something about the movie going public here in the states.....it shows that they were not going back again and again.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

How were they sucessful other than TPM? Clones tanked at the box office domestically....a paltry 310 Million was terrible in 2002. Even 380 Million in 2005 for Sith was a big letdown at the box office. For a finale that was supposed to show how he became Vader and everything that was going to transpire could not even gross as much as Pirates of the Caribbean 2? The last two films, especially the 2nd underperformed big time at least in regards to domestic ticket sales.

I wouldn't say that those are bad box office returns. In all cases the box office return was much, much greater than the production budget. In the case of Episode 2, the box office is almost double the production budget, and in the case of the other 2 movies, it's well beyond double.

But yeah, the big drop off from Episode 1 to Episode 2 does say a lot all things considered (especially when you consider that worldwide, Episode 2 made almost $300 million less than Episode 1). Episode 3 probably got the gain that it did over 2 largely because people wanted to see how exactly Anakin becomes Vader.

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I wouldn't say that those are bad box office returns. In all cases the box office return was much, much greater than the production budget. In the case of Episode 2, the box office is almost double the production budget, and in the case of the other 2 movies, it's well beyond double.

But yeah, the big drop off from Episode 1 to Episode 2 does say a lot all things considered (especially when you consider that worldwide, Episode 2 made almost $300 million less than Episode 1). Episode 3 probably got the gain that it did over 2 largely because people wanted to see how exactly Anakin becomes Vader.

By any other film standard they are not bad returns; but we are talking Star Wars here.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

By any other film standard they are not bad returns; but we are talking Star Wars here.

touche!

[Petyr_Baelish]

The thing is with Lucas is that he feels that the unaltered trilogy is unfinished. He specifically put in the time and effort to alter his movies so they would be more "finished". I can't imagine george lucas going back to "unfinish" his movies. he'd be admitting he made a mistake and the extra work he did was for nothing. He wants the revised versions of the films to be the ones future generations watch, and to remaster the older versions would allow them to be around much longer.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

How were they sucessful other than TPM at least at the domestic BO? Clones tanked at the box office domestically....a paltry 310 Million was terrible in 2002 for a Star Wars product. Even 380 Million in 2005 for Sith was a big letdown at the box office. For a finale that was supposed to show how he became Vader and everything that was going to transpire could not even gross as much as Pirates of the Caribbean 2? The last two films, especially the 2nd underperformed big time at least in regards to domestic ticket sales. Worldwide they might have done fine but that still says something about the movie going public here in the states.....it shows that they were not going back again and again.

Ever so wrong. For ANY film to make $300 million domestic, even these days, there *has* to be repeat business, especially in 2002.

Empire made $100 million less (and cost 3 times as much) than Star Wars. A failure?

LOTR: TTT made "only" $349 million domestic, despite the critical and fanboy gushing and praise I guess that's a failure too since it's only $39 million more than Clones.

[Ite]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

How were they sucessful other than TPM at least at the domestic BO? Clones tanked at the box office domestically....a paltry 310 Million was terrible in 2002 for a Star Wars product. Even 380 Million in 2005 for Sith was a big letdown at the box office. For a finale that was supposed to show how he became Vader and everything that was going to transpire could not even gross as much as Pirates of the Caribbean 2? The last two films, especially the 2nd underperformed big time at least in regards to domestic ticket sales. Worldwide they might have done fine but that still says something about the movie going public here in the states.....it shows that they were not going back again and again.

LOL 310 and 380 million are terrible numbers?

[starwarsagent]

I find it interesting that people will always complain about some minor scene in Star Wars movies. Those same people are going to be the first ones to buy this set and enjoy it. why is that?

And how come that doesn't happen with other movies?

There are tons of bad movies released these days...more and more every weekend. In the 80s we didn't have that many movies being released and we enjoyed star wars longer.

So the question is. Why complain about some effect or line of dialogue when you are going to buy the set anyway? doesn't that defeat the whole purpose? And does reading a negative post about the set make you less likely to NOT buy it?

[starwarsagent]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I'm not one who "hates" the PT, but I've got to disagree with you concerning the love scenes. The love and confrontation scenes were so bad they were almost camp. The "I don't know who you are anymore" line actually made me laugh out loud in the theatre because that line has been so overused. It sounded like a line from a bad romantic comedy. And I don't blame the actors because Natalie Portman and Hayden Christensen have each done great performances in other films. I blame the writing and Lucas' poor direction of the actors (even he has apparently admitted that he doesn't like directing actors.)

I saw a Star Wars PT documentary where Lucas is putting a lot of effort into reviewing costumes, special effects, etc. and then he makes an off-hand comment, "oh, I guess I'd better start writing." I can't prove this one way or the other, but it made me feel like that he actually put very little effort into the writing of the PT and that it certainly didn't go through many refinements or revisions. And then the documentary showed him directing the actors, and as long as the actors hit their marks, it didn't seem that Lucas was concerned with much else. My bet is that Lucas has not had enough personal relationships in his life to accurately write about love relationships. I don't think writing about love is easy, but other writers/directors have managed to pull it off and make it believable. Lucas didn't in the PT. (All in my opinion, of course.) I thought that Solo eventually falling in love with Leia was far better handled, even if it was the usual "I hate you/I love you" movie b.s.

What did work for me (but apparently not for many other people) was the final confrontation between Anakin and Obi-Wan. Even Anakin's "I hate you" line, where he sounds like a spoiled child, worked for me because while he was dangerous, he was also in many respects actually still a spoiled child. Within the context of the story, what you have to wonder is whether he would have been less psychologically damaged by staying with his mother, but remaining a slave, than by being freed but without his mother, at such a young age. Whether by design (which would actually be more interesting) or because of sloppy writing, the Jedi made numerous errors in judgement and in fact, were frequently hypocritical during the course of the story, but they never seem aware of that except in the OT when Obi-Wan implies that he made a mistake by training Anakin alone.

Anakin didn't really hate Obi Wan. he just said that because he had beaten him and he was in pain, burning...what would you say to a person that had just cut off your legs and burned you? I LOVE YOU?


He was jealous of Obi Wan. Because Obi Wan had control over him and never lost focus. Anakin had failed and he knew it. He knew he had failed the day he killed the tusken raiders. after that he pretended to be a jedi. During the clone wars Anakin tried to be a good jedi and be like Obi Wan, but inside him he always had the dark side. this is why Yoda says the boy is dangerous...

He was dangerous as a boy too. winning at races and fighting with Sebulba.
Padme was innocent and naive as most politicians are. I think that's why Lucas made her a queen to show that they don't live in the real world and in some fantasy. Anakin had problems and he could never get over them, so he just blew up. He went postal.

[starwarsagent]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

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Actually a couple of the people that I was with when I saw Episode 1 said that they didn't like it. At the time, I was in a partial state of denial. And no, I didn't come to the point of disliking it and the rest of the prequels because "people on the internet said so"... it was because there were major genuine problems with the movies. When I walked out of seeing Episode 1 for the first time, I was kind of euphoric over some superficial things like the lightsaber battle in the movie, for example. But there was kind of this sense of "something was just... off... about it" that was in my head even at that time.

And then you got on the internet? I have never listened to other people's opinion on what I should like. I went to see episode 1 on opening night..with my nephew, tons of friends..we had lightsaber fights in the line..we played trivia...we all saw the movie and cheered, screamed and loved it. People were raving about the movie that same night...

then they all probably went on the internet and heard the bashers..I did not.

Maybe that's why my perception is different when it comes to episode 1. If you have really been to a bad movie, there is no applauding or cheering. Simple as that.

[starwarsagent]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

But let's stop pretending that there are no differences between the two trilogies and that every complaint is out of line and would exist no matter what. That is simply, patently untrue.

There are differences...thats why I like the prequels...its a totally new universe that we never saw before. People wanted the same thing..a copy and paste of Luke, Han and Leia. The Millenium falcon, xwings, death star and AT-ATs. We didn't get any of that. I am an OT fan. Grew up with them, but I am start enough to know that I didn't want a remake. I wanted something new and different...totally different. This is why people didn't like the PT, they went, "WTF is THIS"?

They wanted the same movies. We got what we didn't expect. thank god for Lucas!