Star Wars Wars the UOT Strikes Back and OTHER PEZ dispensers

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by Jay444

The Imperial March represents tyranny and oppression therefore its sound/anthem would be out of place in a film called "A New Hope." It is used perfectly in ESB as it fits the themes of hopelessness of that particular film. Afterall, ESB is very oppressive film and it is the first film I ever saw where the bad guys actually won. Taking the March out of ESB and putting it in ANH would subtract a bit of the very important stamp John Williams put on the themes (not just musically speaking) of all the Star Wars movies.

On a side note, it is creatively used by Adwayn in his edit especially during the Battle of Yavin. However, I think he could have gotten by quite well without using it.

I don´t even know where to start responding to that. Are you vaguely familiar with the musical concept of themes and leitmotifs?

Originally Posted by jimbean

Are they using Drew Struzans artwork?

They are not using Drew Struzan´s artwork... I would have loved that also.

[Scooter1836]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

I also don't remember TESB getting bad reviews at all, in fact it got great reviews in 1980. Now ROTJ got some not so good reviews and most of the reviews I read thought it was not up to par with the other two. Funny that all these years later I still agree with that theory.

I remember many bad reviews that ESB got. But most of those were from critics that were either in the mind set of the previous generation or trying to compare it to the maga hit SW was. Fans fo the genre gave it good reviews.

SW brought the science fiction/fanatsy genre into the mainstream and in 1980 there were still a lot of critics around that could not accept that.

[GuruAskew]

Home video and piracy are absolute game-changers as far as box office gross goes so comparing a trilogy released from '99-'05 to one released '77-'83 is apples/oranges to say the least.

The Star Wars prequels were all very successful at the box office and to suggest otherwise is foolish.

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by GuruAskew

Home video and piracy are absolute game-changers as far as box office gross goes so comparing a trilogy released from '99-'05 to one released '77-'83 is apples/oranges to say the least.

The Star Wars prequels were all very successful at the box office and to suggest otherwise is foolish.

Right but you also have thousands of more theaters and screens today.....also Piracy was around because in August of 1980 we already had a copy of TESB on tape that was bought and sold out of a comic shop. They even had the thing running all day in the shop for everyone to watch.....

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Scooter1836

I am saying that the PT was a box office success. Not as big of one as the OT, but it was still successful.

Yup. The thing is, Star Wars (1st one) was the biggest domestic BO draw EVER at one point. E V E R. Star Wars was lightning in a bottle, and to repeatedly expect GIGANTIC business just because it's got that name on the marquee is being unrealistic, to put it kindly.

Franchise fatigue always sets in at some point; look at the recent BO downturns for Transformers and Pirates. They're still raking in coinage like there's no tomorrow, but they're not getting the insane domestic takings that their predecessors got.

[Scooter1836]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

If you want to call #58 and #85 with Star Wars in its name a success; in light of the fact that SW held #1 for years, Empire and ROTJ were in the top 10 for years and years then ok. I never said 310 million was bad BO; I said it was bad for a Star Wars film.

Of the top 100 movies of all time. Yes they are successful LOL

I think in your original post you did not have the cavaet of "it was bad for a Star Wars film". There were also others that laught at 310M

The facts show they were a success by BO standards. But I agree that that as SW films they underperformed and absolutely the OT was more of a success.

One oher point to add is the BO standards for films in the 70's and 80's is much different thatn 1999 to today.

Simply because of the added choices we have of home video. In the 79's and 80's ou had to go back to the theatre to see it again. Today we have the options of cable, stalelite, DVD, Blu-Ray, affordable home theatre systems and so on. It is much harder to make a move that will get repeats at the BO unlike 35 years ago.

Also GL knew in 1977 that the first three would br less attractive just by their nature which is why when he did all the original outlines he started with espisode 4 and not 1. To get the series of films off the ground he needed to start with one wiht a more hpoeful message to get the audiences in so he would have the opportunity to make the vision.

[Scooter1836]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yup. The thing is, Star Wars (1st one) was the biggest domestic BO draw EVER at one point. E V E R. Star Wars was lightning in a bottle, and to repeatedly expect GIGANTIC business just because it's got that name on the marquee is being unrealistic, to put it kindly.

Franchise fatigue always sets in at some point; look at the recent BO downturns for Transformers and Pirates. They're still raking in coinage like there's no tomorrow, but they're not getting the insane domestic takings that their predecessors got.

Exactly

[Stinky-Dinkins]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yup. The thing is, Star Wars (1st one) was the biggest domestic BO draw EVER at one point. E V E R. Star Wars was lightning in a bottle, and to repeatedly expect GIGANTIC business just because it's got that name on the marquee is being unrealistic, to put it kindly.

Franchise fatigue always sets in at some point; look at the recent BO downturns for Transformers and Pirates. They're still raking in coinage like there's no tomorrow, but they're not getting the insane domestic takings that their predecessors got.

Franchise fatigue doesn't really set in if you continue to make the movies in a given franchise good (of which Transformers, the new Pirates, and the SW Prequels aren't.)

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

I don´t even know where to start responding to that. Are you vaguely familiar with the musical concept of themes and leitmotifs?

Why don't you go right ahead and educate me.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins

Franchise fatigue doesn't really set in if you continue to make the movies in a given franchise good (of which Transformers, the new Pirates, and the SW Prequels aren't.)

Says you, Captain Subjective.

[Stinky-Dinkins]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Says you, Captain Subjective.

You don't have the authority to promote me to Captain!

[Geoff D]

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins

You don't have the authority to promote me to Captain!

Don't be modest! You've earned it!

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by Jay444

Why don't you go right ahead and educate me.

Ok, here´s what Wikipedia has to say:
"A leitmotif ( /ˌlaɪtmoʊˈtiːf/), sometimes written leit-motif, is a musical term (though occasionally used in theatre or literature), referring to a recurring theme, associated with a particular person, place, or idea. It is closely related to the musical idea of idée fixe. The term itself comes from the German Leitmotiv, literally meaning "leading motif", or, perhaps more accurately, "guiding motif."
In particular such a theme should be 'clearly identified so as to retain its identity if modified on subsequent appearances' whether such modification be in terms of rhythm, harmony, orchestration or accompaniment. It may also be 'combined with other leitmotifs to suggest a new dramatic condition' or development.[1] The technique is notably associated with the operas of Richard Wagner, although he was not its originator, and did not employ the word in connection with his work.
Although usually a short melody, it can also be a chord progression or even a simple rhythm. Leitmotifs can help to bind a work together into a coherent whole, and also enable the composer to relate a story without the use of words, or to add an extra level to an already present story.
By extension, the word has also been used to mean any sort of recurring theme, (whether or not subject to developmental transformation) in music, literature, or (metaphorically) the life of a fictional character or a real person. It is sometimes also used in discussion of other musical genres, such as instrumental pieces, cinema, and video game music, sometimes interchangeably with the more general category of 'theme'. Such usages typically obscure the crucial aspect of a leitmotif, as opposed to the plain musical motif or theme - that it is transformable and recurs in different guises throughout the piece in which it occurs."

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

Ok, here´s what Wikipedia has to say:
"A leitmotif ( /ˌlaɪtmoʊˈtiːf/), sometimes written leit-motif, is a musical term (though occasionally used in theatre or literature), referring to a recurring theme, associated with a particular person, place, or idea. It is closely related to the musical idea of idée fixe. The term itself comes from the German Leitmotiv, literally meaning "leading motif", or, perhaps more accurately, "guiding motif."
In particular such a theme should be 'clearly identified so as to retain its identity if modified on subsequent appearances' whether such modification be in terms of rhythm, harmony, orchestration or accompaniment. It may also be 'combined with other leitmotifs to suggest a new dramatic condition' or development.[1] The technique is notably associated with the operas of Richard Wagner, although he was not its originator, and did not employ the word in connection with his work.
Although usually a short melody, it can also be a chord progression or even a simple rhythm. Leitmotifs can help to bind a work together into a coherent whole, and also enable the composer to relate a story without the use of words, or to add an extra level to an already present story.
By extension, the word has also been used to mean any sort of recurring theme, (whether or not subject to developmental transformation) in music, literature, or (metaphorically) the life of a fictional character or a real person. It is sometimes also used in discussion of other musical genres, such as instrumental pieces, cinema, and video game music, sometimes interchangeably with the more general category of 'theme'. Such usages typically obscure the crucial aspect of a leitmotif, as opposed to the plain musical motif or theme - that it is transformable and recurs in different guises throughout the piece in which it occurs."

I guess Wiki is the one that is doing the educating.

Maybe I am just a dumb country boy but I am still trying to figure out what that has to do with The Imperial March not belonging in Star Wars.

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

I guess Wiki is the one that is doing the educating.

Maybe I am just a dumb country boy but I am still trying to figure out what that has to do with The Imperial March not belonging in Star Wars.

Wiki is just better at it.
Someone said that the Imperial March shouldn´t be in "A new Hope" because of it´s title or something. The way Star Wars is build it strongly depends on themes and leitmotifs, as well musically as in images, characters etc. The imperial march is a theme associated with the Empire as well as Vader/Anakin. The way I see it, it just logical to use the theme with the character it is connected to even in "A new Hope".

[greg_achen]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

Wiki is just better at it.
Someone said that the Imperial March shouldn´t be in "A new Hope" because of it´s title or something. The way Star Wars is build it strongly depends on themes and leitmotifs, as well musically as in images, characters etc. The imperial march is a theme associated with the Empire as well as Vader/Anakin. The way I see it, it just logical to use the theme with the character it is connected to even in "A new Hope".

If John Williams were to actually re-score a portion of the film to include the Imperial March in A New Hope, like what Howard Shore did with the Extended Editions in The Lord of the Rings, I might not be opposed to it. However, if the plan is to just cut a selection of the Imperial March from a previous film and paste it into A New Hope, I would be against that. One need only watch Attack of the Clones to hear why this is a bad idea. A large portion of it is a hatchet job of music lifted directly from previous films edited together to pass as a score. If you are going to do it, do it right, or don't do it all. Leave the music up to the professionals is my motto.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

Wiki is just better at it.
Someone said that the Imperial March shouldn´t be in "A new Hope" because of it´s title or something. The way Star Wars is build it strongly depends on themes and leitmotifs, as well musically as in images, characters etc. The imperial march is a theme associated with the Empire as well as Vader/Anakin. The way I see it, it just logical to use the theme with the character it is connected to even in "A new Hope".

You clearly missed the point of what I was saying. A New Hope (thematically) is about just that: Hope. That new hope happens to be Luke Skywalker and not his evil father. At no point is the Imperial March necessary in that film due to the overall themes of hope and rebellion (if you can't pick up on that, you need to rewatch the film). The Imperial March is the anti-thesis to those very themes and belongs in the Empire Strikes Back which has overtones of hoplessness and oppression.

[Geoff D]

Leave the Imperial March where it is, dammit! That reveal of the Super Star Destroyer in Empire is just perfect.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Leave the Imperial March where it is, dammit! That reveal of the Super Star Destroyer in Empire is just perfect.

You are soooooooo right.