The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy (Extended Edition) (2001-2003)

[Hobbun]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Does Gandalf ever cast anything like devastating offensive spells capable of wiping out a hundered Orcs? I don't think so...Isn't his magic more in the vein of protection, medicine, healing, languages and defense, with a dash of light bursts, sunlight, magic lighting, etc.? He's sort of a "Green Power" wizard, not an "Atom Bomb" wizard. Or is that too simplistic?

Well, that was my whole point. He doesn’t ever cast anything like that where I would have thought he should have.

Now, you could be right, it could be because he just doesn’t have that kind of spellpower to cast big, devastating spells. And if that’s the case, then the points I was trying to make is moot.

But I always got the impression that Gandalf was a very powerful wizard and he just deliberately chose not to cast to that spell power.

But then I am not really sure. I am not really familiar with all of Tolkien’s works in Middle Earth, and never read the Simillarion (sp?) There could have been more in other books of his that detailed Gandalf’s spell power.

That being said, I still love the Lord of the Rings trilogy and the movies were phenomenal. I am not trying to come across as only criticizing it. It was just something that has always bugged me a bit in regards to Gandalf.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Witch King of Angmar

Who would win in a fight? Gandalf The White or Gothmog (Lord of balrogs)?

I don't know but it would be fun to watch.

[beefytwinkie]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Does Gandalf ever cast anything like devastating offensive spells capable of wiping out a hundered Orcs? I don't think so...Isn't his magic more in the vein of protection, medicine, healing, languages and defense, with a dash of light bursts, sunlight, magic lighting, etc.? He's sort of a "Green Power" wizard, not an "Atom Bomb" wizard. Or is that too simplistic?

I thought the same. I always joke with my friends that his main power is speaking loudly and adding magic reverb.

I don't remember him casting any "kill shot" spells in the movies.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Hobbun

Well, that was my whole point. He doesn’t ever cast anything like that where I would have thought he should have.

Now, you could be right, it could be because he just doesn’t have that kind of spellpower to cast big, devastating spells. And if that’s the case, then the points I was trying to make is moot.

But I always got the impression that Gandalf was a very powerful wizard and he just deliberately chose not to cast to that spell power.

But then I am not really sure. I am not really familiar with all of Tolkien’s works in Middle Earth, and never read the Simillarion (sp?) There could have been more in other books of his that detailed Gandalf’s spell power.

That being said, I still love the Lord of the Rings trilogy and the movies were phenomenal. I am not trying to come across as only criticizing it. It was just something that has always bugged me a bit in regards to Gandalf.

There were glimpses of Gandalf's full power unveiled. He fought off several Ringwraiths at Weathertop as Gandalf the Grey. He overcame and killed a Balrog. He drove off several Ringwraiths that were attacking Faramir. He ordered Saruman to come back after he tried to walk away right before Gandalf cast him from the Council and broke Saruman's staf.

Gandalf's temptation to take the Ring was a temptation for power. But he also had to wrestle with temptation in using his own intrinsic power. He was under orders and obeyed.

Originally Posted by beefytwinkie

I thought the same. I always joke with my friends that his main power is speaking loudly and adding magic reverb.

I don't remember him casting any "kill shot" spells in the movies.

That would have been outside of Gandalf's character.

Dissatisfaction with Tolkien's philosophy and how he portrayed Gandalf is part of the reason why Dungeons and Dragons was created.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Hobbun

That being said, I still love the Lord of the Rings trilogy and the movies were phenomenal. I am not trying to come across as only criticizing it.

Criticize away...isn't that how we learn, by asking questions and qustioning our own assumptions and even the inents and assumptions of others? I never understand people who get offended by critique and analysis. That's why I don't frequent political or religion threads...everyone talks at each other, not to each other. Big difference.

[thethingwithnoname]

In quoting from Wikipedia (as I haven't read Silmarillion in ages)

"In Valinor, Gandalf was known as Olórin. As recounted in the "Valaquenta" in The Silmarillion, he was one of the Maiar of Valinor, specifically, of the people of the Vala Manwë; and was said to be the wisest of the Maiar. He lived in the gardens of Irmo under the tutelage of Nienna, the patron of mercy. When the Valar decided to send the order of the Wizards to Middle-earth in order to counsel and assist all those who opposed Sauron, Olórin was proposed by Manwë. Olórin initially begged to be excused as he feared he lacked the strength to face Sauron"

So Gandalf was one of the minor gods originally created that lived in Valinor, so was indeed a very powerful being, but had to work to certain rules while in Middle Earth. Its kind of like the old argument about what sort of God lets people die in wars etc. It wouldn't be much of a life if every wrong decision was covered by a god who made it all ok. So I believe Gandalf could help as much as he could by influence and minor magic, but nothing too invasive. The major effort had to come from the people of Middle Earth themselves

[radagast]

Originally Posted by frogmort

another superbly worded explanation gb, as usual.

Originally Posted by ken brown

excellent analysis. I always thoroughly enjoy reading your posts on these matters

+1

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Criticize away...isn't that how we learn, by asking questions and qustioning our own assumptions and even the inents and assumptions of others? I never understand people who get offended by critique and analysis. That's why I don't frequent political or religion threads...everyone talks at each other, not to each other. Big difference.

Agreed. Criticize away. Just back up your criticism with reason and don't do it for the sake of pissing someone off.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by thethingwithnoname

In quoting from Wikipedia (as I haven't read Silmarillion in ages)

"In Valinor, Gandalf was known as Olórin. As recounted in the "Valaquenta" in The Silmarillion, he was one of the Maiar of Valinor, specifically, of the people of the Vala Manwë; and was said to be the wisest of the Maiar. He lived in the gardens of Irmo under the tutelage of Nienna, the patron of mercy. When the Valar decided to send the order of the Wizards to Middle-earth in order to counsel and assist all those who opposed Sauron, Olórin was proposed by Manwë. Olórin initially begged to be excused as he feared he lacked the strength to face Sauron"

So Gandalf was one of the minor gods originally created that lived in Valinor, so was indeed a very powerful being, but had to work to certain rules while in Middle Earth. Its kind of like the old argument about what sort of God lets people die in wars etc. It wouldn't be much of a life if every wrong decision was covered by a god who made it all ok. So I believe Gandalf could help as much as he could by influence and minor magic, but nothing too invasive. The major effort had to come from the people of Middle Earth themselves

That Wiki article sounds good enough to have been written by Grand Bob. Hey I spelled it right!

[Hobbun]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Criticize away...isn't that how we learn, by asking questions and qustioning our own assumptions and even the inents and assumptions of others? I never understand people who get offended by critique and analysis. That's why I don't frequent political or religion threads...everyone talks at each other, not to each other. Big difference.

Yes, I understand.

But didn’t want to come across as whining and moaning (had enough of that earlier ) about inconsistencies of the movie.

And it’s not even inconsistencies, just something I never understood why Gandalf did not do more, that’s all. thethingwithnoname actually cleared it up a bit with his quote from The Silmarillion. I did not realize Gandalf was actually considered as a god. So I can see him not wanting to be as active as he could be.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Hobbun

Yes, I understand.

But didn’t want to come across as whining and moaning (had enough of that earlier ) about inconsistencies of the movie.

And it’s not even inconsistencies, just something I never understood why Gandalf did not do more, that’s all. thethingwithnoname actually cleared it up a bit with his quote from The Silmarillion. I did not realize Gandalf was actually considered as a god. So I can see him not wanting to be as active as he could be.

The quote was from Wikipedia actually.

[Velmeran]

Originally Posted by Hobbun

Yes, I understand.

But didn’t want to come across as whining and moaning (had enough of that earlier ) about inconsistencies of the movie.

And it’s not even inconsistencies, just something I never understood why Gandalf did not do more, that’s all. thethingwithnoname actually cleared it up a bit with his quote from The Silmarillion. I did not realize Gandalf was actually considered as a god. So I can see him not wanting to be as active as he could be.

I think this part could be debated for quite a while, but I don't know if I would consider Gandalf as a God.

Personally I only see Eru (Ilúvatar) as God in Tolkien's universe; though I can see how others would consider the Valar and Maiar as 'gods' given the role they played in shaping Arda...

I see the Maiar more or less as servants to the Valar, who are ultimately servants to Eru. (and servants may, or may not be the right word here... depending on one's viewpoint of the word. Angels and lesser Angels is probably a better word.)

[Lope de Aguirre]

Anyone noticed THIS greenish hell while watching?

Theatrical:


Extended:


Theatrical:


Extended:

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Velmeran

I think this part could be debated for quite a while, but I don't know if I would consider Gandalf as a God.

Personally I only see Eru (Ilúvatar) as God in Tolkien's universe; though I can see how others would consider the Valar and Maiar as 'gods' given the role they played in shaping Arda...

Wasn't Arda formed by the songs the Valar sung in glory and worship of Illuvatar? And then Melkor, out of jealousy, introduced discord and disharmony and was cast out, and then proceeded to do the same thing on Eregion? Sorry if I'm not more confident with this, as I only read Chapter 1 of The Silmarillion once - it is incredibly beautiful, but also dense and challenging stuff. But i never got the impression the Valar or the Maiar were Gods - just angels, and lesser-angels. Powerful, sure, but not Gods. Gandalf's "healing and light and wisdom" powers fit perfectly with that idea - and it explains why Gandalf would be so cautious with the Ring. His nature is wisdom, his powers are light and life and protection, the Ring allows a powerful person to bend others to his will, to "dominate all life". Gandalf, in the films, says he would be sorely tempted by the Ring to "do good", but the Ring is cursed and evil, and in the end, it would dominate Gandalf by warping Gandalf into a tyrant. No Good can come from using the Ring.

It is easy to justify tyrrany under the guise of benevolence ("I'm only doing it because I care" sort of thing). I've seen it with my own eyes, so has every 16 year-old suffering through the condescension and strong hand of their high school administrators.

[Lope de Aguirre]

Originally Posted by Lope de Aguirre

How were the Ents joining the fight and the Undead Army handled in the books?

and although I only read "The Hobbit" and parts of "The Fellowhip of the Ring" I really wish they would have filmed the devastated Shire and the battle for it.

Anyone?

[Velmeran]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Wasn't Arda formed by the songs the Valar sung in glory and worship of Illuvatar? And then Melkor, out of jealousy, introduced discord and disharmony and was cast out, and then proceeded to do the same thing on Eregion? Sorry if I'm not more confident with this, as I only read Chapter 1 of The Silmarillion once - it is incredibly beautiful, but also dense and challenging stuff.

More or less.

It's the Ainur who sing the songs. The Ainur who chose to leave the void and enter summary/recap of the creation story; but I would highly recommend anyone remotely curious about it read the full tale in The Silmarillion. It's one of the easier stories to read in the Silmarillion and is easily one of the most beautiful.

And yes, Angels is probably the best way to describe the Valar and Maiar (much better than servants, knew there was a better word).

Originally Posted by Lope de Aguirre

Anyone?

I briefly answered how the army of the dead was used in the book a few pages back; but here it is again.

Originally Posted by Velmeran

In the book, the Army of the Dead is only used at the Battle of Pelargir; where they took out the battled the Corsair ships and additional Haradrim.

After that, they were released from their oath and didn't take part in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields (in the book the Grey Company showed up towards the end of the battle).

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Lope de Aguirre

Anyone noticed THIS greenish hell while watching?

I haven't watched it yet, but I think the screenshots look better with the green - adds much more to the darker, mystical, fantasy tone of the scene, etc.

In the theatrical version, it's too empty looking if you will. Almost as if they didn't finish grading the scene. Too bright.

[Member-115369]

Originally Posted by radagast

Dissatisfaction with Tolkien's philosophy and how he portrayed Gandalf is part of the reason why Dungeons and Dragons was created.

Definitely true. And probably part of the reason I'm not as blown away by LOTR as many. I love what Tolkien did in terms of creating a rich world with a complete history and it's own languages etc. That's 2nd to none in fantasy writing.

But I'm not a big fan of Tolkien's pacifist philosophy, hated how he was super detailed about everything but the battle scenes, hated how nerfed the wizards magic was relative to other fantasy series etc.

So I prefer things like George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series, or R.A. Salvatore's long running Forgotten Realms series. The worlds aren't as rich, and the writing isn't as good by any means. But I enjoy the plots, themes, battles etc. a great more so they're far more exciting and compelling reads for me. Where as reading LOTR is always a bit of a slog for me where I'm marveling at the writing and depth of the world and history, but seldom getting excited and burning through pages quickly to see what happens next as the action sequences are given such short shrift in Tolkien's writing given his hatred of war.

That's not saying anything about the quality of the work etc. Just that it doesn't mesh well with my particular interests, world view etc. so I don't hold LOTR in the esteem that some do. It's a great book for sure, but not my favorite in the fantasy genre as it lacks in entertainment value. And that's mainly what I'm going for with leisure reading. My brain gets taxed far too much already at work, so I'm not much into challenging books, movies etc. in my free time and just want to be entertained.

That's why I love the LOTR movies so much. They pare it down to the core story and present it in an entertaining way. While the books are amazing in their depth etc., but aren't particularly an entertaining read IMO.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Lope de Aguirre

Anyone?

What I have heard is that there were complaints about there being too many "endings" already in ROTK. And with even the TE being a rather long movie, well...

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by Velmeran

And yes, Angels is probably the best way to describe the Valar and Maiar (much better than servants, knew there was a better word).

I believe that Tolkien refer to them as such in a letter, maybe to CS Lewis. Grand Bob might know?