Star Wars Wars the UOT Strikes Back and OTHER PEZ dispensers

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

2. Oh yeah, I forget it was you, who needs everything spilled out. No wonder you dislike the PT so much.
My deepest apologies!

I don't "need" everything spelled out. It's just that there's a difference between "Sifo Dyas ordered the clone army".... and that's the END of any explanation. There's nothing left for me to "figure out". There aren't really any puzzle pieces for me to put together, because 90% of them are missing. I shouldn't have to read a Wookiepedia entry just to understand who a character was who put something in motion as huge as ordering all of the clones to be created.

Btw., I did skim your long post regarding your views on what could have been done better etc., and I enjoyed the Sifa Dyas bit, although I disagree about having to show Grievous as an alien.

So, you enjoyed (and I therefore assume possibly to an extent maybe even agree) with the Sifo Dyas part? If so, then this is the kind of stuff that I'm talking about when I complain about these films, yet you make all of these comments like the one above.

As for Grievous, I just think it would have been cool to see him go from alien to cyborg as a precursor to what happens to Anakin becoming Vader. However, having said that, seeing him go through this change is less important to me than simply having him introduced earlier in the story. Even if he was already in 'cyborg' form, having him show up in Episode II and us getting introduced to him would make his importance in Episode III seem far less out of left field.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by O_V_N

If you like 90% you're a "true fan".

If you like 70% you're a "real fan".

If you like 50% you're just a "fan".

There are rules!

No, you have to love ALL of it COMPLETELY! If you even think that one sentence in one book was poorly written, YOU AREN'T A FAN!

[NMR1723]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

You really really can´t compare film or art in general to sports!

All I´m saying is: I don´t like the movie Avatar, but I don´t say I´m a big fan of it, either.

Being a fan of something is universal whether it is film, music, sports, etc. I'm in no way comparing film or art to sports. I'm Comparing fandom and how it's ok to be down on something that you enjoy. You completely missed my point...or you are just trying to talk around it.

I can still be a fan and criticize...it's my right as a fan.

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

No, you have to love ALL of it COMPLETELY! If you even think that one sentence in one book was poorly written, YOU AREN'T A FAN!

Yeah, but are you a true fan?

[NMR1723]

Originally Posted by octagon

How many Stephen King books do I have to like to be a Stephen King fan?

All of them? 90%? 70%? Half?

What's the magic number?

Ok...better comparison than the cubs. I was just trying to find something else that was near and dear to my heart but also causes me pain...

[whaleman]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Simply adding the Episode number didn't necessarily make the OT only "half" of the story. There was a time where Lucas wasn't sure if he was even going to bother making the prequels and in that case would have just left the existing Trilogy as is. In that sense, the episode numbers only really represented the idea that events of some form or another took place before the films that we are seeing... not that we would ever necessarily see those events.

I found it cool "starting" at episode IV; as you say, it suggests there is a lot that has happened in the past, but leaving it to the imagination and keeping it vague was very powerful. Like when the first mention was made of the clone wars in Ep.4; made it feel like the film had a rich back story to it because the viewer was immersed in the middle of it, with references that they had to use their imagination - which made it feel very intriguing. Going back and filling in all the blanks, and adding all the missing episode numbers, and tying all the characters together takes away some of that magic to me.

Don't tell me GL had this grand vision of Episode 2 in his head when he mentioned the Clone Wars in the original movie. I enjoy the prequels too, but I will always think the way they were done was a missed opportunity. But that's just my opinion - we are all entitled and I respect those that love the PT more than the OT all the same.

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by O_V_N

Just because it doesn't support your point doesn't mean you "can't" do it.

I really don't know why you have so much trouble with this. Anyone can be a "fan" of something generally or as a whole, yet still have problems with some of the parts. Examples:

I like "Indiana Jones" but don't really care for Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
I like "Radiohead" but don't really care for Amnesiac.
I like "Friends" but don't really care for the last season.

I'm still a fan.
It's not that difficult.

I really don´t care about the "fan" term... call yourselves what you want. I didn´t bring it up.
I love "Radiohead" and I think Amnesiac is one of their best Albums; tastes differ! If you like just half of Radiohead´s Albums and you say they are liars, just out for the cash and can´t write songs, would you consider yourself a fan?

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

... Not a new entry in a series of movies that lacks the quality of the previous entries in the series.

...from your point of view!

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

How often have those people gone back YEARS later to make changes to their movies and publicly spoken about it? How often did these people talk about their movie making plans ahead of time only to have them chance later, but then deny that the original plan (that they DID talk about) never existed? How many of them were directly approving home video transfers of their movies that ended up having all kinds of technical errors, and then go on to state that these were "artistic choices"?

Whether you like it or not, A LOT of what Lucas has done (for better or for worse) is unprecidented and raises A LOT of questions and debate about artists rights and lisence, what exactly constitutes who "the" artists is when it comes to film (if it's the director, then Lucas is NOT is the artist for 2 out of 3 of the OT movies), whether or not public and historical interest should come into play as to whether or not certain versions of the films are ever released again, etc.

And regardless of how 'tired' some people might be of this debate, it is a good one and an important one for a number of reasons.

Obviously you don´t have any knowledge on how creative processes work.... besides, could you quote any of your accusations?

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by octagon

How many Stephen King books do I have to like to be a Stephen King fan?

All of them? 90%? 70%? Half?

What's the magic number?

I´s say to consider yourself a fan of "misery" for example... you should at least like the whole book.


(Misery is a good example of the crazy "first generation" fandom that´s going on here by the way.)

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

How often have those people gone back YEARS later to make changes to their movies and publicly spoken about it? How often did these people talk about their movie making plans ahead of time only to have them chance later, but then deny that the original plan (that they DID talk about) never existed? How many of them were directly approving home video transfers of their movies that ended up having all kinds of technical errors, and then go on to state that these were "artistic choices"?

Whether you like it or not, A LOT of what Lucas has done (for better or for worse) is unprecidented and raises A LOT of questions and debate about artists rights and lisence, what exactly constitutes who "the" artists is when it comes to film (if it's the director, then Lucas is NOT is the artist for 2 out of 3 of the OT movies), whether or not public and historical interest should come into play as to whether or not certain versions of the films are ever released again, etc.

And regardless of how 'tired' some people might be of this debate, it is a good one and an important one for a number of reasons.

You are a shining beacon of reason and logic in this thread.

It seems most of the people 'tired' of the debate are just frustrated that not everyone is agreeing with them. It reminds me of political or religious arguments, the scariest kind because peace or even relative peace will simply never be achieved.

Kudos Dynamo!

[Cook]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

I´s say to consider yourself a fan of "misery" for example... you should at least like the whole book.

But like someone else said that is one book and this is 6 films. Yes, its one story, but it is still distinct films. I can watch the OT without the PT and completely enjoy it and understand the story. People did this for 16 years just fine, and would have continued to do had the PT never been made. The PT adds to the story, but it isn't necessary to watch it. With a book on the other hand if you only read the last half its not going to make much sense. Your argument doesn't work with that.

[bboisvert]

Originally Posted by Jay444

David Lynch is very 'proud' of Dune. So proud he removed his name from it...LOL.

He removed his name from the TV version only... in which some studio hacks put back about 40 minutes of unfinished footage and trims to pad out the running time for television.

Apples/oranges.

[El_Jay]

The three funniest posts I've read in this thread thus far:

Originally Posted by octagon

Two possibilities...

I was running them down in release order.

I think The Phantom Menace was outstanding.

Place your bets...place your bets...all money down...where she stops nobody knows...

Originally Posted by O_V_N

If you like 90% you're a "true fan".

If you like 70% you're a "real fan".

If you like 50% you're just a "fan".

There are rules!

Originally Posted by octagon

How many Stephen King books do I have to like to be a Stephen King fan?

All of them? 90%? 70%? Half?

What's the magic number?

LOL... in the true 1996 sense of the word.

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

I really don´t care about the "fan" term... call yourselves what you want. I didn´t bring it up.
I love "Radiohead" and I think Amnesiac is one of their best Albums; tastes differ! If you like just half of Radiohead´s Albums and you say they are liars, just out for the cash and can´t write songs, would you consider yourself a fan?

Probably not, but if they go back in 15 years and change the albums that I love, add new arrangements, change some lyrics, and make it so that Fake Plastic Trees shoot first, I may change my mind.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

Obviously you don´t have any knowledge on how creative processes work.... besides, could you quote any of your accusations?

Whoa, simmah down a bit. Take a breath, okay? He has a very clear understanding of the creative processes for both of the Star Wars trilogies. He isn't accusing anyone of anything. Just saying in his opinion, Lucas has made quite a few errors and does not accept blame for them.

[whaleman]

Originally Posted by Jay444

Whoa, simmah down a bit. Take a breath, okay? He has a very clear understanding of the creative processes for both of the Star Wars trilogies. He isn't accusing anyone of anything. Just saying in his opinion, Lucas has made quite a few errors and does not accept blame for them.

I love this thread.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by whaleman

I love this thread.

Best. Thread. Ever.

Got to admit, a sick part of me hopes that one film from each trilogy has a 'green tint' when they released....LOL

[Stinky-Dinkins]

Originally Posted by octagon

How many Stephen King books do I have to like to be a Stephen King fan?

All of them? 90%? 70%? Half?

To be a Stephen King fan you have to be a fan of the Dark Tower series up until they start battling an army of Doctor Dooms on robotic horseback swinging lightsabers around.

[gregmasciola]

Originally Posted by octagon

Star Wars has just been compared to the Cubs.

Originally Posted by shelldweller

You really really can´t compare film or art in general to sports!

This is the perfect example of a point I was trying to make in the Friends thread. The OP wasn't comparing Star Wars to sports. He was just using the Cubs as an example. Comparing them would be saying something like "I like the Cubs better than Star Wars" for whatever reason.
Whenever someone says something like "you can't compare those" or "apples vs. oranges", it just comes off as an excuse to not take in what someone was trying to say.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by whaleman

I found it cool "starting" at episode IV; as you say, it suggests there is a lot that has happened in the past, but leaving it to the imagination and keeping it vague was very powerful. Like when the first mention was made of the clone wars in Ep.4; made it feel like the film had a rich back story to it because the viewer was immersed in the middle of it, with references that they had to use their imagination - which made it feel very intriguing. Going back and filling in all the blanks, and adding all the missing episode numbers, and tying all the characters together takes away some of that magic to me.

Don't tell me GL had this grand vision of Episode 2 in his head when he mentioned the Clone Wars in the original movie. I enjoy the prequels too, but I will always think the way they were done was a missed opportunity. But that's just my opinion - we are all entitled and I respect those that love the PT more than the OT all the same.

There is also a historical precedent for works of fiction that start in the middle, a great tradition that spans back probably to Greek mythology, or possibly further (it's been a while since I've taken a literature class).

As you say, it creates this huge, implied back-story that I think is far more powerful than having everything explained, especially in the case of Star Wars.

Hearing legends about how Darth became Darth, the Jedi fell, Obi-Wan was once a pupil of Yoda, a mentor to Anakin... all of that stuff as historical back-story is incredible. Then you watch the PT where they spell everything out and it just lacks the magic of the back-story, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION. Ruminating on this rich history and the legends that came before A New Hope for 25 years built it up to mythological proportions in many people's minds... then the movie comes out and, to many of us, didn't match up with what we'd been imagining vividly for so long.

Sometimes, just sometimes, a girl with some suggestive clothing and a knowing smirk is far, far sexier than the same girl in an ultra-hardcore exploitative porno. There's something to be said for leaving something to the imagination, and I kind of feel like the prequel trilogy is like a formerly sexy girl that gets drunk and sloppy and gets passed around by the entire football team on camera.

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by NMR1723

Being a fan of something is universal whether it is film, music, sports, etc. I'm in no way comparing film or art to sports. I'm Comparing fandom and how it's ok to be down on something that you enjoy. You completely missed my point...or you are just trying to talk around it.

I can still be a fan and criticize...it's my right as a fan.

Of course you can criticize something that you are a fan of. I never said anything like that. I got your point. My point is that there is a reason why Star Wars turned out the way it did. It´s because Lucas wants it that way. You can either like it or you don´t. Watch it or don´t watch it. Buy it, don´t buy it ...

All I am asking for is respect for ALL of the films and George Lucas. You know the guy who invented it all and who is the only one to decide if it is the way it is meant to be or not.

It´s not about the term "fan"! It´s about people who think they have some kind of say on something they have nothing to do with just because they bought a movie theater ticket thirty years ago.